Potential MEC Firarms Candiates

[trogdor1289]

I would like to see some knowledgedbly people wiegh in on the 5.56 Vs 7.62 letahilty, distance, accuracy debate. So if you know something about these bullets please weigh in.

[Gran]

The 5.56 × 45 mm NATO cartridge with the standard military ball bullet (NATO: SS109; U.S.: M855) will penetrate approximately 15 to 20 inches (380 to 500 mm) into soft tissue in ideal circumstances. As with all spitzer shaped projectiles it is prone to yaw in soft tissue. However, at impact velocities above roughly 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s), it will yaw and then fragment at the cannelure (the groove around the cylinder of the bullet). The fragments disperse through the flesh causing much more internal injury. The effectiveness of fragmentation seems to impart much greater damage to tissue than bullet dimensions and velocities would suggest. It should be noted that this fragmentation effect is highly dependent on velocity, and therefore barrel length: short-barreled rifles generate less muzzle velocity and therefore rounds lose effectiveness at much shorter ranges than longer-barreled rifles.

Separately, hydrostatic shock is often cited as a primary wounding or incapacitation mechanism in high velocity projectiles like 5.56 mm NATO, though this has been conclusively disproven.

There has been much criticism of the poor performance of the round, especially the first-round kill rate when using firearms that don't achieve the velocity to cause fragmention. Typically, this only becomes an issue at longer ranges (over 100 meters) or as already stated wth shorter barreled weapons. The 14.5-inch barrel of the U.S. military's M4 Carbine can be particularly prone to this problem. At short ranges, the round is extremely effective, and its tendency to fragment reduces the risk to bystanders when used inside a building or in an urban environment — the bullet fragments, remaining in the target. By comparison, larger pistol-caliber bullets pose a far greater threat of passing through the target and causing additional casualities.

However the small round simply does not do enough damage when unfragmented, assuming a critical area is not hit, to incapacitate a human reliably with a single shot. Barrier performance (i.e. shooting through materials) is also relatively poor (although even the 7.62 mm NATO round is not particularly effective through vehicles) partly because the light and fast round is easily deflected.

The Soviet 7.62 × 39 mm rifle cartridge was designed during World War II for the SKS carbine. The cartridge was influenced by the late-war German 7.92 mm Kurz ("Kurz" meaning "short" in German). Shortly after the war the world's most (in)famous assault rifle was designed for this cartridge: the AK-47. The cartridge remained the standard Soviet load until the 1970s, and is still by far the most common intermediate rifle cartridge used around the world. Its replacement, the 5.45 × 39 mm cartridge, is less powerful but longer ranged (due to its much higher velocity) and is more controllable in full-auto fire (due to the lower recoil). The change was a response to the NATO switch from the 7.62 mm cartridge to 5.56 x 45 mm NATO.

The original Soviet bullets are boat-tail bullets with a copper-plated steel jacket, a large steel core, and some lead between the core and the jacket. The cartridge itself consists of a berdan-primed, tapered steel case which seats the bullet and contains the powder charge. The taper makes it very easy to feed and extract the round, since there is little contact with the chamber walls until the round is fully seated. This taper is what causes the AK47 to have distinctively curved magazines. While the bullet design itself has gone through a few redesigns, the cartridge itself remains largely unchanged.

To lazy to say it in my own words. For more info check out a book titled "Sniper" by Adrian Gilbert, it has a very indepth section on ballistics.

[trogdor1289]

Thank you for that informative peice of information. Where did you get this from.
More info on 5.56MM from wikipedia section on Terminal Ballstics(stopping power)
The current NATO 5.56 mm SS109 bullet uses a steel tipped lead core to improve penetration, the steel tip providing resistance to deformation for armor piercing,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics
Link as this is a very good read about the differnet types of bullets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistics
general link has links to in flight ballastics and the like also.

[[T]Terranova7]

Alot of factors actually play into ballistics and what not. Read this these(lenghty).

http://www-medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/ ... NBLST.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm

[Sgt. Jarvis]

http://www.65grendel.com/art005newdevs.htm
http://www.bobtuley.com/terminal.htm#ak47

And yes, I had a chance to talk to a service man, who was infact an older guy that had gone to my old High School, he had been talking about how the M4 was not that great of a close combat weapon due to the fact that fragments and sometimes the whole tubling bullet would go right through the hostile target, both not knocking him down rendering him ineffective, and possible collateral damage to innocent civilians.

[Skullening.Chris]

The FNC is only used by the Belgian Armed Forces, Indonesia (Pindad SS-1), Sweden (AK-5) and some policeforces.

Cool, thx for answering my question! I guess then Novalogic included it in Joint Operations because it takes place in Indonesia :B

[Cerberus]

Can't have a Middle Eastern Coalition without an RPG-7, can we?

[Skullening.Chris]

That would make my day. Tired of the cheesy-*** Eryx (which doesn't even work like a real one...)

[mrmong]

SLR's cannot fire automatic; captured Argentine FN's were used by the British.

i know, but SLRs are licenced versions of FN FALS, and i just made the connection..

There was a trick with a matchstick that allowed them to fire full auto : P

[Pence]

There was a trick with a matchstick that allowed them to fire full auto : P

Match-stick's??

What do you do, light a fire and throw the bullets into it?

[Braddock096]

Modification to the firing mechanism I should think.

US squaddies did the same sort of thing with the M1 Garand during the war, not with a matchstick but with filing down certain mechanism components to achieve full auto.

AN94: Word on the street that its a good weapon, but far too complicated to be effective when issued to regular troops.... I.E not squaddie proof.

[Sgt. Jarvis]

Yeah if yiou have the right drilling equipment and the right knowledge, you can turn a AR-15 into a spitting machine. Same with converted AKs.

[Major Ursa Norte]

Well, I am not expert, but I grew up with a firearm in my hands and have been re-loading ammunition for some time, so here goes.

If there is one equation you MUST remember, it is F=MA where F= force, M= mass and A= acceloration. A light grain weight projectile propelled at hyper fast velocities can transfer as much force on target as a heavier grain weight projectile propelled at slower velocities. You just have to play with the mass or acceloration until you acheive the same force. So, in theory, a 5.56 mm (.223 cal.) round weighing in at 52 grains and pushed out of a 22" barrel with the correct twist rate and number of lands and groves in the rifling at a hyper velocity can equal and even exceed the terminal force of a 7.62 mm round at the same distance. The problem is not fragmentation of the bullet, the problem comes from stability in flight. There is a limit on velocity and stability. If you push a projectile too fast, it will not spin correctly and begin to tumble long before impacting the target. The telltale evidence of this is seen on paper targets as an oblong shaped entry hole. The shooting community calls this "keyholing". Most velocities given by manufactures is derived from shooting the rounds through a chronograph several times and taking the average recorded velocities. Makes sense, but what few people know is that those tests are conducted using a long barrel. For the 5.56, that barrel is 24". This is because the 24" barrel alows the most complete burning of the powder and therefore produces the highest internal gas pressure which in turn propels the bullet out of the barrel at a higher velocity. So, if you have a listed velocity of 2700 feet per second from the 24" test barrel and you shoot that ammunition from a 14" barrel, you will not get the same feet per second velocity. The rule of thumb is that for every inch you shorten the barrel, you lose 100 feet per second. So, that means that from your 14" barrel, you are only getting ( 24" - 14" = 10"... 10" * 100 fps = 1000fps.... 2700fps - 1000fps =) 1700 fps net. Most military weapons have had their ammo calibrated back to the combat barrel length, so the fps loss would not be this drastic, but that calibration is usually only done for the "standard" barrel length of the most issued version of the weapon. Which means if the standard M16A1/A2 has an 18" barrel vs the 14" barrel of the CAR, then you are only losing about 400 fps.

Another point to consider, most FMJ Millitary Ball ammo will not fragment in soft tissue at all. Prior to the Geneva Convention, Military rounds were NOT required to be FMJ non-frangible rounds. They were either solid lead or copper jacketed lead core bullets. These type rounds had a much higher kill ratio, but were known to leave horrendous wounds in non lethal hits. The battlefield medicine at the time could not cope with these type wounds and this is why there were so many amputations. The FMJ non-frangible rounds were said to be "more humane", but in reality are far worse than softer fangible rounds. Why? Because a hard bullet that does not deform can hit you in your thigh, strike your femur and "run" up the bone into the abdomen where it turns your bowel into jello. A softer frangible bullet striking your thigh will have a huge wound and may even shatter your femur, but it won't "run" up into your bowel. To my knowledge, only elite units employ frangible bullets and those elite units are usually classified as non millitary in order to avoid war crime charges.

The 5.56 mm round is accurate to very great distances due to the bullet type and weapon platform. This is not in dispute. The problem lies in lethality at distance. As distance increases, velocity decreases and therefore reduces the force on impact. The 5.56 mm was put into place as the standard US arm to encourage soldiers to engage targets at a distance using controled fire techniques instead of the spray and pray method employed with automatic type weapons of WW II and Korea. The DoD wanted to turn every soldier into a marksman. If you engage the enemy at a distance with superior accuracy, there is a better chance for your side to end a battle sooner and with fewer casualties on your side. The Soviet mindset was just the opposite. Masses of troops laying down withering fire at close range. This is what the AK-47 was designed for. That is why it has the top part of its barrel shaved off. The cut out defelcts gass pressure and causes the barrel to be pushed downward against the rise created from the recoil of the round. That means the AK-47 is truly horrible at distances. Bullet stability is affected by the cut out and will not fly true beyond intermediate combat ranges.

I know, really long post, so I will finish with this. Why has there been no mention of Isreali made weapons? Just because the MEC is ideologically opposite of Isreal, that does not mean that UZI made mgs and smgs are not used every day in that part of the world.

[Pence]

US squaddies did the same sort of thing with the M1 Garand during the war, not with a matchstick but with filing down certain mechanism components to achieve full auto.

I could see this working seeing as thogh the AK-47 ows much to the Garand.

AN94: Word on the street that its a good weapon

It is a good weapon, its better than the aged AR-15 (calling it AR-15 is just to avoid the ill-informed patriotic response).

[Braddock096]

MP44, as in STG44?

The AK47 owes a hell of a lot to the MP44, Not the Garand


AK47


MP44

[Major Ursa Norte]

Match-stick's??

What do you do, light a fire and throw the bullets into it?

Same trick you can do with a Ruger Mini-14. Place the match stick between the hammer and the following sear. When you pull the trigger, hammer falls, round goes off, bolt moves rearward, case ejects, hammer sear ***** and as the bolt continues back into battery, the match stick prevents the following sear from locking up. That means that if you still have the trigger depressed, the hammer falls and the whole process gets repeated. I used a plastic toothpick to accomplish this in my Ruger. It will last for about 100 - 150 rounds before it dislodges. Jamming the following sear with the match stick or toothpick is basically the same function that the selector knob does. The selector simply lifts the follow sear just enough to allow auto fire while allowing the all of the sears to still travel in unison on the rearward movement of the bolt. Thre round burst are another story all together though.....

[Pence]

MP44, as in STG44?

Yes.

The AK47 owes a hell of a lot to the MP44, Not the Garand

Despite circumstantial evidence, Mikhail Kalashnikov denies that his rifle was based on the German assault rifle. Internally, the AK-47 owes much to the M1 Garand Rifle. The double locking lugs, unlocking raceway, and trigger mechanism are clearly derived from the earlier American design. This is not surprising as millions of Garand rifles had operated reliably in combat around the globe. Though mechanically similar to the Garand, the AK-47 clearly borrows its cartridge concept, weapon layout, gas system, and construction methods from the StG44. Further, the safety is surprisingly similar to the Browning designed Remington Model 8 rifle. Where the Kalashnikov rifle differs from other designs is in its simplification of those contributing designs and adaptation to mass production by relatively unskilled labor. The AK-47 can be seen as a fusion of the best that the M1 Garand offered combined with the best aspects of the StG44 made by the best processes available in the Soviet Union at the time.

[Crawley]

G3 and the RPG get my vote, both popular weapons used by middle eastern countries

[Cerberus]

If the RPG-7 is too "primitive" for a professional military such as the MEC, maybe you could give them the RPG-29, which is relatively new.

RPG-29 grenade launcher has been adopted by Soviet army in 1989, and it is intended to defeat most modern tanks, fitted with ERA protection.