SF and Engineers

[Truism]

SF and Engineers are going to keep having trouble coexisting. They are still both trying to do the same thing in slightly different ways. I don't think this has to be a problem, as long as the two have remarkably different flavours.

Special Forces: Has every right to be a CQB monster, super soldier type thing who has great deviation on the move and awesome building clearing ability. I think trying to pigeon hole him into a behind-enemy-lines sabetour thing hasn't worked very well, because that's only one thing that SF should be good at. I propose that like the Engineer/Mountaineer, SF should be split into two different classes, one who specialises in Recon/Sabotage, one who specialises in CQB and entry work. It should be obvious which is needed for which type of map.

SF/CQB:

Slot 1: Knife
Slot 2: Pistol, Unsuppressed, does more damage and is more accurate than other pistols.
Slot 3: Red Dot/Irons Carbine. Sights in quickly, and has less deviation while moving/shooting but is less accurate at range while prone etc.
Slot 4: Frag grenades
Slot 5: Slams, Timer Detonation.
Slot 6: Smoke Grenades
Slot 7: Flashbangs - no reason why SF should have lost them.
Slot 8: SOFLAMS - no reason not to give them out
Slot 9: Bandages - same number as Riflemen.
Slot 0: Grapple.

SF/Demo:
Slot 1: Knife
Slot 2: Pistol, Suppressed. As it is at the moment
Slot 3: Optics/Marksman Rifle. Longer sight in than Irons or maybe even optics, but is more accurate prone and not moving (like a pseudo sniper). maintains decent accuracy while moving and sighted in.
Slot 4: Slams, infra-red mode.
Slot 5: Slams, Timer Detonation.
Slot 6: C4.
Slot 7: Smoke grenades
Slot 8: SOFLAMS.
Slot 9: Bandages - same number as Sniper/Officer.
Slot 0: Grapple/Parachute, depending on the map.

Slots 4 and 5 have ammo linked in this kit. Infra red slams function like mines. As they do in real life.


Engineer is changed also to avoid friction. His emphasis will be on breaching/defending fixed emplacements.

Engineer is identical to what he is at the moment, but has 2 mines in the kit. The shotgun either gains fairly damaging buckshot, or the slug gains more damage and the deviation is tightened substantially but still with very limited range. Trip flaires come in sets of 6, and can thus be used to wire up an area more effectively to set up a perimiter.

[Caboosehatesbabies]

I'd support the Engineer... maybe, I'd still like to see a sabatoure's charge

SF I have no comment on.

[Truism]

To elaborate further on what I was writing and to reply in part to the reply.

There is a bias against 1337 Special Forces and Snipers in PR to the point where Special Forces are debateably no better at fighting than line classes. This isn't realistic. Special Forces are better at entry tactics, and are better at room clearing than line soldiers. SF do more CQB training, and maintain much higher operational levels (and are thus more experienced on average). They are also fitter than comparable regular units.

If PR doesn't want to realistically model SF/Commandoes then I support removing them from the game. PR is a game pitched well and truly at line soldiering. It would do just fine without SF. If we are going to leave them in, then we would do well to make them realistic.

[Rudd]

Slot 7: Flashbangs - no reason why SF should have lost them.

well...the effect was kinda naf iirc

Slot 2: Pistol, Unsuppressed, does more damage and is more accurate than other pistols.

iirc suppressed weapons do less damage and have less range than their unsuppressed counterparts IRL?

The shotgun either gains fairly damaging buckshot, or the slug gains more damage and the deviation is tightened substantially but still with very limited range.

why?

I still say engineer needs a SLAM since IRL engineers perform demo duties

but would your SF kits be 2 per team of 32 or 4 per team of 32?

I'm not really a fan of this for 2 reasons
1) I'm happy with the SF role, but I know alot of people arent
2) since the uber cool deviation stats you give this kit will be to the weapon as a pick up...the insurgent or whoever can pick it up and become a trained delta operator or whatever with the push of a G key.

[Truism]

well...the effect was kinda naf iirc

Naf?

iirc suppressed weapons do less damage and have less range than their unsuppressed counterparts IRL?

Suppressed weapons have significantly lower muzzle velocities than unsuppressed counterparts. Additionally, we could use the 0.7 Sig model for the SF CQB class accross the board to justify greater damage.

why?

Shotguns are used for a lot more in real life than just blowing down obstacles. They are very effective weapons in their own right for close engagements. Opening this up as a combat weapon allows another tool for the Devs to implement assymetrical balance (ie. how Engineers use their shotguns for breaching).

I still say engineer needs a SLAM since IRL engineers perform demo duties

I have been inclined to agree with this at various times as well, but I think it causes far too much overlap with the SF class as it stands. If the saboteur SF class were changed (or SF removed altogether) then yes, there would be room for this on Engineers.

but would your SF kits be 2 per team of 32 or 4 per team of 32?

2 it would work like Engineers/Mountaineers (ie. be map specific)

I'm not really a fan of this for 2 reasons
1) I'm happy with the SF role, but I know alot of people arent

I simultaneously am and aren't. What they do at the moment is just too similar to what Engineers should be doing, but that can't be helped at all. I think the way we have SF at the moment is unfair to what SF really are.

2) since the uber cool deviation stats you give this kit will be to the weapon as a pick up...the insurgent or whoever can pick it up and become a trained delta operator or whatever with the push of a G key.

This is a significant problem, but it is replicated accross the board. A pilot who has skydropped in, killed a sniper and taken his kit can suddenly hit targets at 800 meters away. An insurgent who brings down a HAT operator has suddenly recieved the months of training it takes to deploy the sophisticated equipment in combat.

It is not ideal that enemies picking up the kit get improved marksmanship, but it is much better than making the elite just like everyone else. Consider the insurgent who kills the SF operator becoming a legendary Super-insurgent like Juba, or The Phantom from You Don't Mess with the Zohan...

[OkitaMakoto]

Rest assured it has already been looked into and an epic resolution has been made

[Truism]

Sounds great

[Darktrooper]

Well, to me "epic resolution" sounds more like "no more specops" .

[Smegburt_funkledink]

All hail the epic resolution!

I only hope this means the engineer kit now represents an engineer more now.

Naf?

Forgive Rudd for misspelling some english slang there.

Urban Dictionary: naff

[Rudd]

Forgive Rudd for misspelling some english slang there.

Urban Dictionary: naff

That's how we roll in East Anglia mate, don't make me go Wisbech on your ***!

[Truism]

Man, the flashbang effect wasn't tacky or ****, it was pretty solid... Might even go as far as to say it was a dinky die BF2 effect....

:\