Helicopters are too unrealistic

[Tirak]

All you need now, Alex, are the Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals...



and maybe this too...

Kris Abel's Tech Life :: Hands-On Look At The Canadian-Made Dreamflyer And Microsoftâ$™s New Expansion For Flight Sim X





Then we can talk about realism.

The amount of bells and whistles Flight Sim X can support is starting to disturb me.

[Waaah_Wah]

Of course they have joysticks, more complicated ones but joysticks nonetheless. What did you think they used?

They just don´t use only the joystick.

Yeah, okay its a joystick, but its pretty different from what you buy to fly jets in games

[SocketMan]

Now thats something, although give me a range of full flight sims integrated to FSX, Lock on and BF2 please.

You gonna love the "Black Shark" when it's out,if it isn't already.It was supposed to be an add on for the Lock On but they decided to do a full game instead.Takes about half an hour to warm up,after months of learning all the controls.

[blackhatch46]

Yea same here. I guess we're a minority

Judging by the points razed, it seems to be the most realistic helicopter:
- It's harder to stop when it's going fast. Feels like it has more inertia.
- Cant use your rudders at fast speeds
- It doesn't flip or roll over


It does gain altitude a bit slow.

yea you actually can use rudder at fast speeds, thats how pilots make minute adjustments in direction.

[Robert1983nl]

Ok I just played BF2 again without any mods to compare realism flying helicopters.

It totally blew me away. I didn't even remember anymore how the helicopters were SO much better in BF2. On a scale from 0-100, where 0 is TOTALLY unrealistic and 100 is realistic, I would put BF2 on 70 and PR would score around 25.

Guys, you really should let the helicopters handle like in BF2, it's way better and way more realistic. Sure, you could do some tweaking, but to keep it realistic you REALLY have to change back to BF2 helicopters.

Can't believe the helicopters are so fucked up in PR... It was great flying the choppers in BF2 again!

[Raegron]

What? Go back to vanilla handling? I think someone has gone mad..

[Robert1983nl]

Why not? In BF2 helicopters are somewhat realistic. The helicopter handling in PR is one big joke. Way too many flaws and unrealistic behaviour in PR helicopters, as described in my first post of this thread.
So back up your opinion, why do you think the helicopter handling should not go back to BF2-style?

[Raegron]

I'm not a pilot myself, I just speak from what I see/feel in-game, so you may be right, but I think the chopper handling in BF2 is waaaaaay too easy. In PR, you have to be skilled to fly really well. In BF2, almost anyone can handle the things just fine. Fine enough at least.
Perhaps somewhere in between is better, but going back to vanilla is something I for one would certainly not like to see. But again, this is from a gaming perspective.

I've also heard that in POE2, the choppers handle very well. Perhaps you should try that too, see what you think about that?

[Robert1983nl]

Yeah I'll try POE2 sometime. The only reason it's hard to fly a helicopter in PR is because the helicopters handle like a huge pile of ****. It's unrealistic, it doesn't make ANY sense and it's just bullshit really.
True, it's easy in BF2/Vanilla, but at least it's WAY more realistic. The speeds choppers fly is more realistic, the handling is way more realistic, acceleration way more realistic, inertia way more realistic, slope landings way more realistic. It's just so much better and it's a shame that a mod like PR makes just about everything pretty realistic, but they failed to do so with the helicopters, in fact, the helicopters are a joke right now.

[Rhino]

Robert1983nl, are you claiming to be some kind of expert or something on helicopters? Going by the "1983" in your name your only 19 years old, I very much doubt you have even had the chance to fly anything more than a RC chopper which btw I have.

We have fully trained pilots who play this mod, [R-DEV]Kill-Pirate being a UH60 medivac pilot in the US Army and afaik he thinks the chopper physics are pretty good thou not perfect, we all can agree on that.

If you think that PR chopper physics are soo bad why do instead of just flaming it with nothing constructive in your posts in fact take it upon yourself to try and code better flight physics of a helicopter, then we can get a bunch of r/l chopper pilots to test it out and see what they think? If they are good, I would see no reason why we would not use them, we use many other things from the community etc that are good and improve PR for both realism and gameplay?

If not, please if your not going to bother giving us any constructive criticism then dont bother going on about this as you are not archive anything apart from making yourself look like a fool.

Thanks.

[Drav]

Sorry, Robert, slope landings are not more realistic in Bf2?! You have previously stated you are a Chinook pilot, so you should know that landing a big helicopter like a merlin on the side of a hill is not that easy, whereas in bf2 it is a matter of pushing down until both skids are on the ground.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you said you had flown CH-47s but if you think bf2 physics are 75% realistic, now I'm not so sure!

If you'd said FSX.......

[hx.bjoffe]

Going by the "1983" in your name your only 19 years old

Rhino, 2002 is over. Get off those drugs!

[Robert1983nl]

Robert1983nl, are you claiming to be some kind of expert or something on helicopters? Going by the "1983" in your name your only 19 years old, I very much doubt you have even had the chance to fly anything more than a RC chopper which btw I have.

1983...... That would make me 24 or 25. Not 19???? And good for you that you fly a RC chopper. The chopper I fly is in total more than 30 meters long and has more than 9.000 horsepower.

We have fully trained pilots who play this mod, [R-DEV]Kill-Pirate being a UH60 medivac pilot in the US Army and afaik he thinks the chopper physics are pretty good thou not perfect, we all can agree on that.

Well, let him play BF2, he'll tell you it's more realistic.

If you think that PR chopper physics are soo bad why do instead of just flaming it with nothing constructive in your posts in fact take it upon yourself to try and code better flight physics of a helicopter, then we can get a bunch of r/l chopper pilots to test it out and see what they think? If they are good, I would see no reason why we would not use them, we use many other things from the community etc that are good and improve PR for both realism and gameplay?

First of all, I'm not into coding. I'm not a programmer, I'm an aviator. I don't punch in codes, I fly helicopters and I'm just saying it's totally unrealistic in PR, which is a big shame. If you would've read my earlier posts you would've seen a lot of constructive criticism but I don't think you've read it or understand it. I'm only trying to give input so you guys can make helicopters realistic. Just look at how the helicopters fly in BF2, copy that code, tweak it a little. It'll be so much better!

[Robert1983nl]

Sorry, Robert, slope landings are not more realistic in Bf2?! You have previously stated you are a Chinook pilot, so you should know that landing a big helicopter like a merlin on the side of a hill is not that easy, whereas in bf2 it is a matter of pushing down until both skids are on the ground.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you said you had flown CH-47s but if you think bf2 physics are 75% realistic, now I'm not so sure!

If you'd said FSX.......

FSX is only good for flying fixed wing IFR. It does a half assed job at 'simulating' helicopters.
And hey! At least you can land on slopes and takeoff again in BF2, instead of tipping over or hitting trees next to you in PR!!!
And guess what you do in real life to land on a slope? You also touch the ground with your high gear first, then lower thrust until the other gear touches the ground whilst applying cyclic into the slope. Not like in PR, where you should avoid slopes cuz all you'll do is tip over, or need 200 meters of open terrain on the downslope side to take off.
I gave PR a score of 25, BF2 a score of 70, and I think I'd give FSX a score of 87 for realism.

[Duke]

Rhino, 2002 is over. Get off those drugs!

lol i was about to say. Someone born in 1983 would be 25. Rhino, dont do any more arithmatic please

But i agree with the rhinoob on his other points, we've had numerous actual chopper pilots give positive feedback on the changes, KillPirate, Brummy etc etc. Dont mean to sound rude, but unless you can prove you have experience in this line of work (pics or whatever), then people are a touch more likely to trust the actual military pilots than you.

For all we know, you could be some random Bf2 pubby just transitioned to PR, with no piloting experience whatsoever, making up the experience in order to have things tweaked back to the comfortable levels of vanilla where you were once 'skilled'. Its happened before lol, anyone seen maistros recently? Not that this is the case necessarily, but its as likely as you being an actual helicopter pilot.

Similarly robert, you still seem to be stuck in the warp that makes you think the speed readout on the HUD is its actual speed. Its not. Everything in the BF2 world is relative, not a precise measurement. In the same way that an ingame meter isn't actually a meter, 300kmph isnt 300kmph (or mph or whatever, notice the lack of units in game). Basically, ignore it.

[cyberzomby]

One thing I can agree with him is the argument rhino gives with the: Go code yourself. I understand what he means that Robert doesnt give any help on solving this "issue". But you can ask non "it geeks" to just pick up a coding program and start hammering away. The same way you wont go stand in the kitchen of a restaurant when you complain on the long waiting time for your food.

I see that way of argumentation used a lot here and its just not right (at least I think so)

EDIT:
Not to flame you dev's because your doing an awesome job

[Rhino]

Rhino, 2002 is over. Get off those drugs!

lol, was in a rush to post this since I had to go back out, dunno how the feck I got that wrong

1983...... That would make me 24 or 25. Not 19???? And good for you that you fly a RC chopper. The chopper I fly is in total more than 30 meters long and has more than 9.000 horsepower.
Well, let him play BF2, he'll tell you it's more realistic.

I use to fly RC choppers a long time ago, aint for years far too expensive hobby, modding is much more fun too
Got any pics of you flying your chinook and can you prove its you?

First of all, I'm not into coding. I'm not a programmer, I'm an aviator. I don't punch in codes, I fly helicopters and I'm just saying it's totally unrealistic in PR, which is a big shame. If you would've read my earlier posts you would've seen a lot of constructive criticism but I don't think you've read it or understand it. I'm only trying to give input so you guys can make helicopters realistic. Just look at how the helicopters fly in BF2, copy that code, tweak it a little. It'll be so much better!

do you think I was in to modding before I started? most of our coders here taught themselves, its really, really simple to code for BF2 and do the basics of tweaking, it just takes a hell of a lot of trial and error to learn what each bit dose.

let me give you an exsample of a bit of code for a helicopter engine, thou alot more than just the engine effects the flight.

Code: Select all

ObjectTemplate.create Engine gbthe_merlin_RotorEngine
ObjectTemplate.modifiedByUser "sofad"
ObjectTemplate.setNetworkableInfo BasicInfo
ObjectTemplate.createdInEditor 1
rem ---BeginComp:WindAffector ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent WindAffector
ObjectTemplate.windType RadialDir
ObjectTemplate.windIsDynamic 1
ObjectTemplate.windDirection 0/0/-1
ObjectTemplate.windSpeed 20
ObjectTemplate.windBlowTime -1
ObjectTemplate.windFalloff 30
ObjectTemplate.windRadialFalloff 20
rem ---EndComp ---
ObjectTemplate.floaterMod 0
ObjectTemplate.hasMobilePhysics 1
ObjectTemplate.hasCollisionPhysics 1
ObjectTemplate.physicsType Mesh
rem -------------------------------------
ObjectTemplate.addTemplate S_gbthe_merlin_RotorEngine_RotationRpm
ObjectTemplate.addTemplate S_gbthe_merlin_RotorEngine_Idle
ObjectTemplate.addTemplate S_gbthe_merlin_RotorEngine_Rpm1
ObjectTemplate.addTemplate S_gbthe_merlin_RotorEngine_Rpm2
ObjectTemplate.addTemplate S_gbthe_merlin_RotorEngine_Load
rem -------------------------------------
ObjectTemplate.setMinRotation 0/0/-20
ObjectTemplate.setMaxRotation 0/0/900
ObjectTemplate.setMaxSpeed 0/0/1
ObjectTemplate.setAcceleration 0/0/15
ObjectTemplate.setInputToRoll PIThrottle
ObjectTemplate.setAutomaticReset 1
ObjectTemplate.restoreRotationOnExit 1
ObjectTemplate.setEngineType c_ETHelicopter
ObjectTemplate.setTorque 300
ObjectTemplate.setDifferential 180
ObjectTemplate.setGearUp 0.99
ObjectTemplate.setGearDown 0.01
ObjectTemplate.setGearChangeTime 0.1
ObjectTemplate.setGearRatios 3.5 2.2 1.5 1.1 0.94 
ObjectTemplate.noPropellerEffectAtSpeed 1
ObjectTemplate.noPropellerEffectAtSpeed 1
ObjectTemplate.horizontalSpeedMagnifier 5
ObjectTemplate.horizontalDampAngle 0.1
ObjectTemplate.horizontalDampAngleFactor 0.001
ObjectTemplate.defaultAngleOfAttack 2
ObjectTemplate.maxAngleOfAttack 12
ObjectTemplate.attackSpeed 10
ObjectTemplate.decreaseAngleToZeroVerticalVel 0.5
ObjectTemplate.dampHorizontalVel 5
ObjectTemplate.dampHorizontalVelFactor -0.5
ObjectTemplate.audio.transformationRelativeRoot 1

All you need to do is change the values on each of them to get something what you want. If you are what you say you are then you should be able to tell when your on the right track of getting it right. A strait coder either has to just guess or he has to code it, then ask the thoughts of a pilot if he's in contact of one, then go back and try and make thous tweaks as best as possible, very hard to get anything just right. Your the perfect "chopper coder" if you are a pilot.

Otherwise my suggestion to you is go play vBF2 and dont complain about PR's choppers unless your criticisms are going to be constructive.

I think you are having a problem understanding the meaning of constructive criticism so let me quote the definition of it for you.

A form of feedback where the reader offers suggestions on ways to improve something - polite and helpful are the keywords here.

All I see from your feedback are:
"The helicopter handling in PR is one big joke"
"Way too many flaws and unrealistic behaviour in PR helicopters"

constructive would be:
"Right now PRs chopper handling is not quite there, you can improve them by doing such and such"

The only suggestion you have is for us to revert to vBF2 which is not going to happen.

you are also saying that vbf2 choppers are the correct speed but the Chinook is a very fast chopper at top speeds, yes the acceleration in PR is not perfect, we know this, very hard to get acceleration just right, but the top speed is more or less correct.


Again, if you really want to help PR, help code the choppers correctly rather than just saying our choppers are "a big joke"?

Thanks again.

[Psyrus]

I think the OP might be confusing the PR and BF2 placements in his realism calculations... I can't believe you'd rate those slow moving air-cows in BF2 as realistic. Also, can someone explain to me why taking off on an incline wouldn't send you flying in the direction of the incline?

My understanding is that the "lift" is created by the rotation of the blades "pushing"/slicing the air downwards as it rotates, and thus you will be moved in the direction that is the normal to the surface on which you're settled. So if you're on flat ground the normal would be straight up. If it's a 45 degree angle your normal is 45 degrees the other way. So if you land it 30 degrees sideways, and you punch the throttle you'll move off at an angle of 60 degrees (as opposed to 90 on flat ground).

Not having flown a chopper I can't speak with authority, but unless you increased the throttle slowly, allowing the chopper to "lift" to the horizon it'd work, but that's not how people fly in PR... takeoffs/landings as I see it are mostly 100%, which is where the stumbling point is.

For those who don't yet know, if you end up on a slight gradient and want to take off in the safest possible way, use the tail rotor (rudder) to orientate yourself facing up or down the slope, and whilst pushing forward or pulling back [respectively] on the stick, increase your throttle slowly, you should be able to take off stably* rather than going flying off in a random direction as you gun the throttle hoping there's no obstacles in your way.

*Due to the engine limitation you'll still accelerate quite quickly 'away' from the surface, but you should be able to flare off the speed very quickly. I have exams but after that's done I'll do a quick video of it. It's not a perfect solution but it's better than nothing

edit: Doing it "properly" isn't really possible due to the helicopter's tenacity towards trying to flip over, and the fact that hills in BF2 are made of teflon

[Robert1983nl]

How's this for proof? Thought it'd be useless to put my face on it cuz it could be anybody's face so I decided to enter my name

[Robert1983nl]

I think the OP might be confusing the PR and BF2 placements in his realism calculations... I can't believe you'd rate those slow moving air-cows in BF2 as realistic. Also, can someone explain to me why taking off on an incline wouldn't send you flying in the direction of the incline?

That's why you first align the rotor disc with the horizon using the cyclic stick. Then you increase thrust. You will go straight up.

First having to face up or downslope with the nose is not only impossible in real life, it's also pretty stupid.

Another thing that bothers me is that most helicopters tend to go more forward than up when you increase thrust. Another thing that's totally unrealistic. When you keep your controls neutral, and apply thrust, a helicopter goes UP. Not forward and a little bit up.