Commander being removed?

[MrYellow]

I think for the commander, he should be the one to set the strategy

This is a big part of my point (although not in relation to objectives).

The commander should have a toolbox.
The commander should have the ability to decide how to use that toolbox.

The commander's choices in how to use this toolkit shouldn't be restricted,
he needs to be the most flexible unit on the field, with the ability to
support and command his troops in whatever way suits the situation, as the
situation changes. Be that hiding in a hole on the frontline or sitting in a
bunker at base, that should be his decision and his decision alone.

Forcing people to play it as an RTS coms relay because of some fear of "bob
the builder" or from some missplaced desire for "realism" is hurting the
slot.

If this were reality all the platoon/company commander needs is his
radioman and a pistol. We aren't managing a division here, it's 30 guys,
given respawn simulates higher numbers, but it's 30 guys at any time.

-Ben

[Celestial1]

Woah, wait? Then what do you suggest he do?

Run around the map as he did in v0.75 playing construction builder and approving strikes?
Now, I'm all for giving him something to do, but let's not just slap on a task for him to do as commander and call it all better.


The commanders job in a game is simply to provide order. If you so wish to run around the field, you can. Just be aware that you will spawn at hard-points (non-rally spawns) and just go to your command post in an hour to accept that strike. That's probably the most useless thing you can do as commander; and the only difference from v0.75 is that you now can't just look at your CTRL map running about the world. You can still run around, if you really want to. You've got a gun.



Honestly, nothing has REALLY changed but putting the command screen within the CO Post and taking away build ordering. You can still be out in play as a soldier, just Global-directing squads, if that's what you really want. Just be ready to be called an imbecile by some players and be bugged every so often on what a squad is supposed to do, and be told that you should stop talking on global squad.

Give an example of what you want him to do; maybe it would make more sense after you reveal your masterplan.




Or, maybe, just as an example, you can command when you've just given up hope on your team's quality, and you know, direct them.

[Truism]

Honestly, nothing has REALLY changed but putting the command screen within the CO Post and taking away build ordering. You can still be out in play as a soldier, just Global-directing squads, if that's what you really want. Just be ready to be called an imbecile by some players and be bugged every so often on what a squad is supposed to do, and be told that you should stop talking on global squad.

I'm just going to take you on one thing.

If a commander leaves his command post at present, his team instantly becomes unable to build anything, because he can't approve their requests. This has the potential to be crippling, or at the very least an incredible hassle (leaving, rejoining commander every time some oaf wants to put an FB down.

The system is built so that a commander who leaves his box is punished with all sorts of random restictions, like not being able to give the go-ahead for fire support or build orders, and not being able to talk to squads individually. More than just punishing an individual harshly, it punishes a team harshly if their commander wants to engage. Sometimes as a commander I will to truck runs to dangerous places, because let's face it, no one else sits with the trucks all the time, and no one else (logistics squads excepted) have the time to do it.

[multiplan]

Played since .5. PR Rocks. Thnx Dev’s.

1] The reason the position is in decline has been identified as “you don’t really need a CO anymore” but it’s still desirable to have one. As a result the position has lost respect in the PR chain of command and the SL’s are now making the strategy decisions. If you’re not really required then you won’t engender any respect.

2] The .75 CO position had deteriorated to going CO just to drop the FB’s, or going ENG and teaming up with a CO to drop FB’s. But as a dedicated CO it was entertaining managing the battle while deploying assets and pushing the team forward all while driving a loud truck that handled like a tugboat and rolled more than a Suzuki sidekick. Being able to position yourself for GLTD overwatch in conjunction with the CO map was an important and effective tactic.

3] My suggestion is to make the CO role what it really is and that is an officer designation, where it is an engagement requirement. So “NO CO = NO SPAWN”. You have to join a squad, so you HAVE to have a CO.

4] Return the mobility, the full control of asset deployment and force someone to step up and command instead of what happens now. If the team has no CO, no players can spawn. If the CO resigns or disconnects someone better step up or the team will have no reinforcements. This will force the team to fill the role consistently, both teams to be competitive and mandate strategy.

5] If the CO advances too far and gets killed the teams spawn is suspended until he is penalty redeployed. So don’t get shot.

6] The current map marking system is pretty ineffective except for FB marking from the dozen times I played as CO in .8. The active tracking should be returned and can be rationalized as satellite/UAV designation.

7] Too many concurrent CO changes were implemented in .8. Next time maybe one fundamental alteration at a time.

8] CO toy request - a CO kit same as Officer with the shovel, and a command HMV with a 100m range IR screen (fm apache guncam) for large maps.

9] Muttrah is frackin incredible.

[MrYellow]

The commanders job in a game is simply to provide order.

Which is exactly why we need someone playing him.

What good is the commander slot unless someone is playing it?

Ok an example, 3 squads attacking Airdrop on whatever map that is. CO is in
the treeline to the north with a single inf guard watching his back , out of
view, concealed from sniping positions and completely safe (as can be). 2
squads are advancing from his angle, one high, one direct, while another
flanks east of airdrop to cover the hill behind and the road up. The
commander can hear each front and the positions fire is coming from, he can
see a lot of the hill and can watch the flanks for the squads so they know
if they're being ghosted. Stiff resistance is encountered and an arty strike is
needed. The commander approves in the field and continues to guide the
squads in using his enhanced situational awareness to better manage the
squad movements. (this is an account of the most fun I ever had in CO slot,
I used to play it often)

Lots of fun. Realistic.

vrs.....

The CO is back at HQ, can't hear or see where fire is coming from and is
limited to radio reports which age quickly (SQD leaders have to talk to
their men, they don't have time to report everything constantly) to decide
on squad placements. The CO tells the flanking squad to head further south
on their flank and to get up into the hills. The squad ignores him because
they know that would be certain death, while the CO has no idea about what
the true situation is on the ground so can't tell what is going wrong, gives
up a few moments later when everyone dies.

or....

The CO is in the field, providing good intel and coms relay to the squads
based on true situational awareness. They encounter stiff resistance, an
arty strike is called for. It can't be delivered due to CO's restrictions.
All 3 squads die, their firebase and spawns are taken out.


A lil injection of Reality eh....

When orders come from a bunker they are generic "take this objective, here's
the intel, we suggest this approach, you have this support available" then
(well since Napoleon) the units decide how that changes based on the
situation on the ground. You've watched too many movies if you think there
is a guy watching IR satellite feeds micro-managing squad movements from
3000 miles away.

I know the reality of it gets a little mixed when you're dealing with mixed
unit types such as armor and air. At that stage technically you're no longer
a platoon or company commander. However we play many maps that are basically
inf only. We need a platoon commander on the ground with us, in the field.
Currently the game design stops us from getting that reality.

Ok reality again.......

Would you go into a firefight without your platoon leader or SGT?

-Ben

[MrYellow]

1] The reason the position is in decline has been identified as “you don’t really need a CO anymore” but it’s still desirable to have one. As a result the position has lost respect in the PR chain of command and the SL’s are now making the strategy decisions. If you’re not really required then you won’t engender any respect.

AMEN!

7] Too many concurrent CO changes were implemented in .8. Next time maybe one fundamental alteration at a time.

Yup big-time. The ability for SQD leaders to build has already fixed "Bob
the builder" there was no need to lock up the CO as well. If that was the
functional requirement for this software then it had already been met with
another feature and that needed testing separately to locking up the CO to
determine which features were providing the desired results.

-Ben

[Psyrus]

As a long time commander prior to 0.8, and a general power freak if I must admit, I have to say I was very disappointed with the absolute nerfing of the position and the stringent no-fun requirement for the CO. Mr Yellow has basically taken the words out of my mouth... I don't really have anything more to add, except my support for his POV. I can't say if I'm a particularly good commander or not, it's not my call to make, and I didn't ever get the commander nomination from the community (bigD) so there's probably something I did wrong, but I still believe that the slight levels of coordination I added did help the overall cohesiveness of the team. But that's not there anymore because I don't play PR to stare at a map screen for 1-3 hours.

[MrYellow]

You're a good commander for sure man and one that took the spot whenever
needed that we've lost to the changes.

You were probably the best on some maps!

edit:
Any fresh ideas for the devs lurking guys?
I've spotted some that are good but might not be possible,
I'm sure they'd like some more suggestions to work with also.

-Ben

[Tartantyco]

Woah, wait? Then what do you suggest he do?

Run around the map as he did in v0.75 playing construction builder and approving strikes?
Now, I'm all for giving him something to do, but let's not just slap on a task for him to do as commander and call it all better.

-Since everyone appears to have missed it:

Introduce a CO kit:

Only a sidearm and perhaps some bandages
Cannot drive trucks
Cannot build assets
Can access any CO abilities at any time
Long respawn time

[fubar++]

As I see it this commander discussion should be linked in a bit wider perspective. In PR community people often seems to forget that this modification is only a game. Because it is a game everyone are involved in voluntary base. In a real military organization you either are forced to join or you have to commit to strict agreement of your oblications and responsibilities. That is not the case here. Leadership in voluntary organization should be based on popularity. It doesn't make difference which sort of leader you are but if you don't have the grip people will desert you, and it is all deserved.

So, if you are a SL or CO, think what is the best way to help and organize your squad or team. If you need to give orders you have to have clear picture or intuition what you are doing and why are you doing it, not just because you are leader and you are supposed to give orders people around you. If you don't know what you should do, give it a rest and try again sometimes later - when you have ideas and experience doing things better than the average.

Edit: More to the original subject: If you give CO too much power a bad commander will just mess things up for you. If you don't give him enough tools to contribute no-one will be interested. IMO ideal role is where commander can give efficient support to the team but not control it much. And it seems that the commander don't have enough power at the moment to get people interested.

[Truism]

Introduce a CO kit:

Only a sidearm and perhaps some bandages
Cannot drive trucks
Cannot build assets
Can access any CO abilities at any time
Long respawn time

No. Why should the commander of 30 men (a lieutenant) is not crippled and left with nothing buy a Pistol - this is not WWI, and Officers participate in combat.

There is no problem, and there never was a problem with commanders participating in combat - they do so at their own risk, and at the risk of their team. It is an acceptable tradeoff.

[MrYellow]

Yeah I'm not sure how much of that kit suggestion would even be possible.

I do think the long respawn timer is the perfect way to force the commander to
be careful with where he places himself in the field and at what stage he
commits himself to shooting as well as talking.

The whole bob the builder thing, I just don't think a commander in the field
would become this, as the SQD leaders just build instead, as they always
have lots of shovels with them. Regardless of if the commander has the
ability or not, there is no longer the requirement or demand for the CO to
be the one building. However, if it's well behind lines where he doesn't
want to pull back a SQD leader from the front. Think he needs the choice to
build if he so desires.

-Ben

[Celestial1]

-Since everyone appears to have missed it:

Introduce a CO kit:

Only a sidearm and perhaps some bandages
Cannot drive trucks
Cannot build assets
Can access any CO abilities at any time
Long respawn time

...Wait, what?

So now he... can walk around main? What's the difference? He can access CO abilities anywhere, but he's only got a pistol, cannot drive supply trucks or build, and has a long respawn time to boot? Not only is he not combat effective, he's effectively useless, excluding what he can do in his magic screen (it's about as effective an idea as making the CO Post drive at a walking pace and giving it a 9mm coaxial).


I would honestly love to see commanders having something to do, but let's not slap on some random oddjobs and call it a day. Far too often in .75 the commander was his own logistics squad, and didn't direct the team all that much. Now in v0.8, there are far less commanders, but much MORE strategy involved when there is one. I would much rather see the v0.8 commanding aspect stay about than v0.75 and previous returning.

Yes, give him something to do; but make SURE his focus is still on directing the battle, please.

[WildBill1337]

i played as commander once at Jabal Al Burj and it was AWESOME!!! sure, maybe you dont really get involved, but it feels great when you tell guys to do something, they do it, and it halps your team win the battle. its also rewarding when one squad tells you of an AT guy, then you end up saving an APC by relaying such important information. this may sound weird, but commanding in this game feels a lot like playing EndWar. overall, its a rewarding job.

[WildBill1337]

Which is exactly why we need someone playing him.

What good is the commander slot unless someone is playing it?

Ok an example, 3 squads attacking Airdrop on whatever map that is. CO is in
the treeline to the north with a single inf guard watching his back , out of
view, concealed from sniping positions and completely safe (as can be). 2
squads are advancing from his angle, one high, one direct, while another
flanks east of airdrop to cover the hill behind and the road up. The
commander can hear each front and the positions fire is coming from, he can
see a lot of the hill and can watch the flanks for the squads so they know
if they're being ghosted. Stiff resistance is encountered and an arty strike is
needed. The commander approves in the field and continues to guide the
squads in using his enhanced situational awareness to better manage the
squad movements. (this is an account of the most fun I ever had in CO slot,
I used to play it often)

Lots of fun. Realistic.

vrs.....

The CO is back at HQ, can't hear or see where fire is coming from and is
limited to radio reports which age quickly (SQD leaders have to talk to
their men, they don't have time to report everything constantly) to decide
on squad placements. The CO tells the flanking squad to head further south
on their flank and to get up into the hills. The squad ignores him because
they know that would be certain death, while the CO has no idea about what
the true situation is on the ground so can't tell what is going wrong, gives
up a few moments later when everyone dies.

or....

The CO is in the field, providing good intel and coms relay to the squads
based on true situational awareness. They encounter stiff resistance, an
arty strike is called for. It can't be delivered due to CO's restrictions.
All 3 squads die, their firebase and spawns are taken out.


A lil injection of Reality eh....

When orders come from a bunker they are generic "take this objective, here's
the intel, we suggest this approach, you have this support available" then
(well since Napoleon) the units decide how that changes based on the
situation on the ground. You've watched too many movies if you think there
is a guy watching IR satellite feeds micro-managing squad movements from
3000 miles away.

I know the reality of it gets a little mixed when you're dealing with mixed
unit types such as armor and air. At that stage technically you're no longer
a platoon or company commander. However we play many maps that are basically
inf only. We need a platoon commander on the ground with us, in the field.
Currently the game design stops us from getting that reality.

Ok reality again.......

Would you go into a firefight without your platoon leader or SGT?

-Ben

agreed. maybe bring allow the commander screen and strike/build approval allowed while outside the freakin command post, but dont let the commander go around like Bob the Builder in 0.75.

[cyberzomby]

I dont think its much like the reality where you dont want to go without your platoon leader. I havent got any facts but what I "feel" is that in real life a platoon sticks together. In PR its really an army of individual squads that work for the same objective. Squads can sometimes be apart over a long distance. Only on maps like qwai and that desert map with the city in the middle are squads together like a small platoon.

[Cassius]

No. Why should the commander of 30 men (a lieutenant) is not crippled and left with nothing buy a Pistol - this is not WWI, and Officers participate in combat.

There is no problem, and there never was a problem with commanders participating in combat - they do so at their own risk, and at the risk of their team. It is an acceptable tradeoff.

I recommend 2 kits one commander kit which leaves everything as it is for maps that suggest a CO is overseeing the operation (such as Kashan) and a first lieutnant kit, for maps where mainly infantery is involved (like taed sae) which resembles the commander of 0.75.

[Threedroogs]

Introduce a CO kit:

Only a sidearm and perhaps some bandages
Cannot drive trucks
Cannot build assets
Can access any CO abilities at any time
Long respawn time

-Simple as that really.

the problem with a long spawn time is that it punishes the team, not just the CO. if a team has a CO that's on the front line and dies, the CO is unable to fulfil his role while waiting to respawn. a commander that is dead is not only worthless, but also a liability to the team. no commander is better than a commander that's dying during a round.

[Noobcleaner]

We could add the zoom thingy from vBF where you can see whats happining so the commander could guide the squad in enemy territory so the commander has something to do.

[Rudd]

ok...craziness is in my head, so I gotta write it down

We have the current CP and it should stay exactly how it is, no change

Then we have the Commander vehicle

Commander vehicle - 2 seats? drivable by any1 but has to have the commander in the second seat and this seat only allows the 'commander kit' to sit there. Commander kit = the same as officer kit, but has different name for this vehicle to understand this is the commander car, in this vehicle the commander is able to access his Com screen.

but not much point in being able to move around if you arent going to do something useful right?

so, lets give the commander a new toy that can only be deployed next to this vehicle and can only have 1 at a time. - deployable Forward CP

Deployable forward CP- can be used to place extra defences- HMGs etc and possibly a unique deployable (but I cant think of any that havent been suggested and shot down b4)
This could have a limited rearm capability. I'm thinking of the Muttrah reloading or a good use for the airfield on barracuda. Commander can use his screen in the DFCP <- that sounds great

perhaps even it might work in making the AAS modes more interesting, e.g. you can't cap the next flag until the DFCP is constructed at another flag or something.

ooooo, I feel much better after exorcising that craziness.