APC - Fighting Vehicle or Personal Carrier?

[LtSoucy]

Each PR APC/IFV:
USMC:
LAV-25 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
US Army:
M2/M3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stryker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
British:
Warrior tracked armoured vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
FV107 Scimitar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
MEC:
BRDM-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BTR-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BMP-3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
China:
No infomation on there APC.

Now if you see most are APC's and should be done as said many times, only problem. Its hard to get guys who have never played with each other before to do such teamwork.

[Truism]

Now if you see most are APC's and should be done as said many times, only problem. Its hard to get guys who have never played with each other before to do such teamwork.

I disagree, it's because there's no real need to for the most part. A detached APC is a highly effective killing machine that is more than capable of killing most threats before they can kill it. It doesn't need native infantry support, it doesn't benefit enough to go through the trauma of trying to get people to work together. At most, the enemy has 4 AT kits, only two of which are nearly as dangerous to you as you are to them, the other two have rates of fire hundreds of times less than your's and do about half as much damage to you as you do to them. They are less accurate and have worse sighting mechanisms than you also.

In other words, there are only two people on the other team who aren't in APCs of their own that you are scared of, only two who can engage you on remotely fair terms, and 28 others for you to farm for tickets. If you are even remotely successful, then the number of people on the other team who can dent your armour will never be at 4. In an average game, no more than 2 out of 5 squads will have any anti-armour capability at all. That's a lot of people looking to become homes for HE shrapnel.

You could try and help cap points with native infantry, but what would the point be? The win conditions don't favour aggressive flag capping - bleed sits so far back that simply fighting to it takes most of the match to get to them. You do better by using your mobility and firepower to bleed the other team out the old fashioned way, and help frustrate their plans.

This, by the way, is not support for nerfing the mobility, armour or firepower of APCs in any way. That's silly because APCs aren't the problem - unrealistically gimped infantry are.

[Tirak]

Now if you see most are APC's and should be done as said many times, only problem. Its hard to get guys who have never played with each other before to do such teamwork.

Shame on you Soucy, the Scimitar is a Light Recon Tank, not even an IFV.

[SqnLdr]

Why move slowly and support infantry, when you can do 60 Km/h and kill enemies on the go and run over a poor ******* here and there and no AT can get a shot on you and you probably killed all the guys that had the five AT kits in existence anyway.
Anyone thought of that?

I hope this is sarcasm.
If not, I think you've missed the whole point of the thread.
Edit: Truism, you do have a fair point, however there is far more on the battlefield that can dispatch with IFVs and APCs then other APCs and infantry carried AT. Mines, Heavy Armour, Airsupport that can be called down surgically by any SL, etc. - That's if you're willing to go through the "trauma" of trying to get people to work together - something happening on public servers across the world right now.

[Alex6714]

I hope this doesn´t turn into a lets remove all vehicles so that infantry have unrealistically nothing to worry about in modern warfare.

[Outlawz7]

I hope this is sarcasm.
If not, I think you've missed the whole point of the thread.

No I didn't.

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f112-p ... post791886

[LtSoucy]

I disagree, it's because there's no real need to for the most part. A detached APC is a highly effective killing machine that is more than capable of killing most threats before they can kill it. It doesn't need native infantry support, it doesn't benefit enough to go through the trauma of trying to get people to work together. At most, the enemy has 4 AT kits, only two of which are nearly as dangerous to you as you are to them, the other two have rates of fire hundreds of times less than your's and do about half as much damage to you as you do to them. They are less accurate and have worse sighting mechanisms than you also.

In other words, there are only two people on the other team who aren't in APCs of their own that you are scared of, only two who can engage you on remotely fair terms, and 28 others for you to farm for tickets. If you are even remotely successful, then the number of people on the other team who can dent your armour will never be at 4. In an average game, no more than 2 out of 5 squads will have any anti-armour capability at all. That's a lot of people looking to become homes for HE shrapnel.

You could try and help cap points with native infantry, but what would the point be? The win conditions don't favour aggressive flag capping - bleed sits so far back that simply fighting to it takes most of the match to get to them. You do better by using your mobility and firepower to bleed the other team out the old fashioned way, and help frustrate their plans.

This, by the way, is not support for nerfing the mobility, armour or firepower of APCs in any way. That's silly because APCs aren't the problem - unrealistically gimped infantry are.

You seemed not to get my post, you have 6 guys. Non of them have never played with each other before. The teamwork rate has been proven to be alot lower in those groups. In a group of 6 men that play all the time with each other, the teamwork rate is much higher.

[Cassius]

Irl the apc moves you to the battle, most of the maps start during a battle usually, you are already there. On maps like Kashan desert it makes much sense for the apc to transport troops. Or on Assault on Mestia if you have to change location.

On Muttrah you are usually heavily involved into fighting most of the times, so it does not make sense to bother entering the apc. The apc should stick with the troops.
If you have a lot of ground to cover however, as always it makes sense again to call for transport instead of having a huey land in a hotzone.

Basrah is an excellent map to employ troop transport via apc. You safe time and on the approach over open ground to the city the apc covers you and delivers your squad safely.

So in other words, use common sense. Is there a lot of ground to cover, will there be enough idle time that it is worth to bother waiting for and boarding the apc ?

EDIT: I noticed many suggesting the apc is fine on his own and shouldnt worry about infantery support. I disagree, if he lonewolves enemy squads will either hide or hide and destroy the apc. On most maps best strategy with an apc is to stand back and casually crash a firefight putting rounds in like 2-3 enemy squads, which are totally in the open with nowhere to run and dissappearing again. Not only is this strategy safer, but you will also get A LOT more kills.

[Liquid_Cow]

it's a byproduct of the long standing Infantry/Armour imbalance.

Ah, that's kinda the point. Infantry runs from armor. There is very little you can do to a tank to stop it. Typical USMC augmented infantry platoon (+/-60 men) would have one HAT team and maybe a half dozen LAT missiles. So on a 64 player server we already have a lot more AT than IRL would.

The real problem in PR is the lack of coordination between infantry and armor. Play a tournament some day and you'll see some amazing team work. We ran an organic armor platoon, but we worked very closely with infantry, responding to request for support (team speak squad leader's channel is essential for this, though a good commander would work as well), providing transport and evac, even playing decoy for the infantry.

Frankly, on pub servers I don't think you'll ever get over this problem. Too many players don't understand how to coordinate with armor, so on those servers I just sit on the hill top with my 25mm sniper rifle and pick off noobs.

[Solid Knight]

The issue it really that people tend to group armor and people tend to group infantry into separate squads. Communication is too slow between the two so the APC drivers do their own thing.

[Truism]

I hope this is sarcasm.
If not, I think you've missed the whole point of the thread.
Edit: Truism, you do have a fair point, however there is far more on the battlefield that can dispatch with IFVs and APCs then other APCs and infantry carried AT. Mines, Heavy Armour, Airsupport that can be called down surgically by any SL, etc. - That's if you're willing to go through the "trauma" of trying to get people to work together - something happening on public servers across the world right now.

AT. Mines are rarely employed, but yes, they have a big part to play in making APCs less effective. That's why engineer/scout is my favourite kit.

Heavy Armour and Air support are only available on two maps really - Kashan and Quinling (and to a lesser extent on Al Kufrah Failfields), in those, APCs either know their place, or are taught it very quickly.

I think this thread is more about maps like Jabal, OGT and even EJOD, where Mechanised Infantry are meant to go head to head, but really just end up being APC fests most of the time, in the same way infantry maps are just hoard the Humvee maps. It all just relates back to the epic failure of infantry in the current metagame.

Obviously I exaggerated a bit, but the point still stands - why bother going to the trouble of trying to use an APC as a glorified car, when you can either tie up or kill half their team with it without any real trouble?

[=]H[=TangFiend]

Obviously I exaggerated a bit, but the point still stands - why bother going to the trouble of trying to use an APC as a glorified car, when you can either tie up or kill half their team with it without any real trouble?

Actually doofus you can do all of that ^ ^ ^ as well as the addition of four (04) bonus infantry with you *IF*

1. Cut the hero BS, nobody cares about a single Gunner's K/D

2. Learn about the real life military (acronyms can clue you in here) "A P C" they make em simple for a reason son.

3. Read between the lines of why this thread was created.

4. Reread Fuzzhead's post (its not a baby tank)

5. Learn how to play PR.




Yes, I am being a tad venomous but I read your post a few days ago and found it bothersome. Then reread it and realized how much it was the antithesis of what makes Project Reality a great mod.

The creator of this thread Nytemyre had it right. There is a reason there are seats in the back of these vehicles.

[Tirak]

H[=TangFiend;868893']Actually doofus you can do all of that ^ ^ ^ as well as the addition of four (04) bonus infantry with you *IF*

1. Cut the hero BS, nobody cares about a single Gunner's K/D

2. Learn about the real life military (acronyms can clue you in here) "A P C" they make em simple for a reason son.

3. Read between the lines of why this thread was created.

4. Reread Fuzzhead's post (its not a baby tank)

5. Learn how to play PR.




Yes, I am being a tad venomous but I read your post a few days ago and found it bothersome. Then reread it and realized how much it was the antithesis of what makes Project Reality a great mod.

The creator of this thread Nytemyre had it right. There is a reason there are seats in the back of these vehicles.

I hate to put you on the spot but you're making the people who are pro correct usage of APCs look bad. Personal insults are the fastest way to lose credibility. Stay on topic and deal with the issues, take your arguments to PMs.

[Cassius]

The reason APC does not need to fear infantery on most servers is that people request HAT LAT whenever avaiable and lose it while the apc is on the other end of the map. If Inf can not handle 1-2 APCs with 3 HATs and 3 LATs one needs to wonder what they do with their gear. It is not an imbalance issue if APCs pwon infantery, because the HAT guy takes point, or lat is always gone because players request whatever is avaiable for the sake of having a special kit.
The problem are possessive players who think, why should somebody else have the lat kit ? I request it for myself beyatch and then run off (and get killed) because having the lat does not mean they do not want to pwon some noobs.

On maps which have a decent ammount of regular players thats less of an issue and apcs are more cautious (and more blown up).

[Truism]

H[=TangFiend;868893']Actually doofus you can do all of that ^ ^ ^ as well as the addition of four (04) bonus infantry with you *IF*

1. Cut the hero BS, nobody cares about a single Gunner's K/D

2. Learn about the real life military (acronyms can clue you in here) "A P C" they make em simple for a reason son.

3. Read between the lines of why this thread was created.

4. Reread Fuzzhead's post (its not a baby tank)

5. Learn how to play PR.




Yes, I am being a tad venomous but I read your post a few days ago and found it bothersome. Then reread it and realized how much it was the antithesis of what makes Project Reality a great mod.

The creator of this thread Nytemyre had it right. There is a reason there are seats in the back of these vehicles.

Calm yourself child.

1: When I'm involved with APCs, I drive them, I rarely gun them. I play PR to win, and APCs are most effective used as hunter killers to disrupt and kill enemies. Ticket bleed is generally negligible, but firebase maintenance and K/D ratios are very important to winning 0.8 PR. APCs are very good at killing people for few deaths, and at WTFBBQPWNing firebases.

2: In the real life military, anti-armour tactics are substantially more effective because infantry are more effective. PR wants to be realistic, it doesn't mean it is.

3: Read between the lines? The OP was trying to get PR's game dynamics changed so that APCs have more incentive to act as carriers, and less to act as killers. If they're not Carrying at the moment it's because gameplay as a cab service isn't sufficiently gratifying or rewarding for your team's victory prospects, while hunting and killing isn't sufficiently dangerous, and offers greater rewards for yourself and your team.

4: Fuzzhead's post signalled that APCs don't work the way they do IRL in PR. That's what I said too. He just took it a step further and said the devs were fixing it. I'm inclined to think this is probably by nerfing APCs rather than buffing Infantry, but beggars can't be choosers. I'm not exactly sure what you want me to re-read in the post - am I supposed to ignore that APCs currently function more effectively as light tanks than as APCs and play make believe because DEVs want us to?

5: I know how to play PR, I might even go as far as to say I'm sort of good at it. I haven't played in a little while because of some CD Key problems, and I'm not going to be drawn into an E-Peen discussion over who's better at PR. Frankly it's not relevant to this discussion.


I have led Mechanised Infantry squads before, and to be blunt it's largely a waste of everyone's time at the moment. Having a 4 man infantry component makes life hell when you dismount and have to clear buildings, and having an APC that can't work proactively to use and abuse its mobility and firepower doesn't work as well as other options either. The slower, more predictable tempo that infantry support forces on APCs makes them much easier targets for LAT and even moreso HATs, which also endangers the whole squad. Sometimes APCs are most effectively used in direct support of infantry, but more often they're not.

You get better mobility out of either a humvee (which offers most of the firesupport you need) or a helicopter in some maps. Both of them also let you keep your squad largely intact, and available for grunt work.

Edit:
And yes, of course there's a reason for those seats in the back. They're meant to be used for transporting infantry, it just so happens that that doesn't work very well at the moment. They'd see far more use on Kashan and Quinling if transport helicopters weren't on such short cooldowns.

[Tirak]

Calm yourself child.

4: Fuzzhead's post signalled that APCs don't work the way they do IRL in PR. That's what I said too. He just took it a step further and said the devs were fixing it. I'm inclined to think this is probably by nerfing APCs rather than buffing Infantry, but beggars can't be choosers. I'm not exactly sure what you want me to re-read in the post - am I supposed to ignore that APCs currently function more effectively as light tanks than as APCs and play make believe because DEVs want us to?

I took away from Fuzz's statement that there would be more dedicated APCs like the Stryker. The Stryker, especially on maps like Basrah V2 where anti armor assets are plentiful, truly comes into its role as the .50 is not so powerful you feel you can go WTFBBQPWN everything, but powerful enough to make you think you can run the city for limited periods of time to insert or extract a squad, and you've got the armor to do it. While I agree, Mech Infantry in this game has resulted in less than optimal results most of the time, this is more because the APC and the SL are generally at odds with the APCs roll, or do not understand it correctly.

[Majorpain]

This has come about because there is no real counter to APC's on some maps.

On Muttrah for example, the BTR90 can fly around the city with no worries whatsoever because there is no real way that you can get an HAT missile pointed at it to stabilise in time.

Even then, the real counter to APC's should be LAT which should really one shot APC's, or at least critically damage them so they cant run off.

Then you might find that the 3 LAT's on a team might actually get used instead of everyone going for HAT, and using LAT as an absolute last "im getting raped, might as well throw something at it" resort.

[Smuke]

APC's, are used a fighting vehicle in PR, if there not then there pretty much uesless.

[Scot]

I really think, if you get the APC to be able to go at walking pace or running pace, then it would be useful as Infantry support, but now they are mainly used as Outlawz suggested, which I don't like, which I why I go engineer and mine the **** out of places, and also get LAT and shoot you. APCs don't shoot on the move in PR. So they stop, 1 LAT to the rear, kablammy.

[Alex6714]

This has come about because there is no real counter to APC's on some maps.

On Muttrah for example, the BTR90 can fly around the city with no worries whatsoever because there is no real way that you can get an HAT missile pointed at it to stabilise in time.

Even then, the real counter to APC's should be LAT which should really one shot APC's, or at least critically damage them so they cant run off.

Then you might find that the 3 LAT's on a team might actually get used instead of everyone going for HAT, and using LAT as an absolute last "im getting raped, might as well throw something at it" resort.

Cobra.