add SAW/grenadier/marksman(?)/(LAT?) to spawn menu

[gazzthompson]

fuzzhead:

no 1 (i hope) is asking for unlimited SAW and grenadier, 1 per squad. the squad will still need rifleman as core. but its a mute point as you have said its not possible to code in the way needed.

at the moment half the time non of the kits are available for what ever reason which is not realistic or handy for squad leaders, but guess thats a different matter.

[[uBp]Irish]

i think the fact mot kits have scopes is fine. With the size of maps, not having a scope is puts people at a big disadvantage, but this is not the thread for that.

If we just increase the amount of LAT/Grenadier/SAW kits available for each team, that would be better than making it a spawnable kit. If infantry squads work with APC's like they're supposed to in .85, a supply crate is going to be there anyway to request a kit off of it. Most squads get a supply crate anyway if they are dropped by helicopter for the sake of building a FB.

[fuzzhead]

There was a version when everyone used a SAW? You mean no-one. Which would be every version.

yes, there was actually

There should be a minimum of 1 in each squad. It should be closer to 2

Okay so a typical infantry squad would be made up of:

Officer
Medic
Auto Rifle
Auto Rifle
Grenadier/Marksman/Rifleman AT
Grenadier/Marksman/Rifleman AT

hence, no more riflemen in the game, which SHOULD be the backbone of a squad.

anyways, the amount of requestable grenadier and auto rifle has been increased (in 0851 actually), so it will definitely be different in v0.85 than v0.8

also the time to request these kits has been reduced, so these infantry kits should be much more avaliable in v0.85.

But I personally dont agree with the statement that you should ALWAYS have access to these weapons. Should your entire squad die on the frontline, that should not just be a minor detail, it should set your team back and actually have consequence to the battle. Especially if you were carrying important kit in the squad.

Think of the limited kits for a second as a team resource. You wouldnt expect a team resource like a tank or apc to be instantly avaliable to your squad at all times, even when you were just destryoed in one. The same way I believe should be thought about for these powerful squad weapons. If you failed an attack on an enemy positions and lost your entire squad and all your valuable kits, the logical next choice would be to re-group, hold position and dig-in, bracing for the enemy counter attack while waiting for your team/squad to regroup and another attack. Repeatedly attacking the same position over and over again regardless of previous assaults and regardless of whether you are in an advantageous position to do so is not the kind of gameplay were interested in. This is spammy/grind-like behaviour, and makes maps boring and repetitive. We want to try to avoid this style of play whenever possible, as its neither realistic or interesting. Allowing squads to always have access to the best weapons right from their spawn (RP) will just encourage this grind like behavior.

[masterceo]

maybe then limit special kits 1 per squad? i mean that SL can choose if he would prefer marksman/GL/AR in his squad, then the squads would look like this

Officer
Medic
Medic/Rifleman
Rifleman
Rifleman
AR/GL/DMR

the general idea behind this is that every inf squad should be equipped with a support weapon at all times, to give them an advantage over enemy troops, but still not being overpowered

[gazzthompson]

sl
medic
GL
SAW
rifleman
rifleman/other

whats wrong with that?

[fuzzhead]

edited post above

[gclark03]

That post is slightly incorrect.

I thought the consensus was that only the Auto Rifleman and Grenadier would be on the spawn menu.

Also, why shouldn't a squad always have a basic assortment of weapons? The way it is now, I almost never see auto riflemen or grenadiers in combat. If they aren't actually on the spawn menu, something needs to be done that ensures that most squads will deploy with those kits - maybe an improvement to the kits, or a tweak in the kit limiting system. Whatever it takes, really.

Another thing, somewhat off-topic: the Auto Rifleman kit really needs a scope in order to have any chance against all those Optics Riflemen they're designed to suppress. If some LMGs have scopes and some don't, it doesn't matter - give them all a scoped SAW with a different tracer color, as long as every LMG for every faction is scoped.

[CAS_117]

yes, there was actually


Okay so a typical infantry squad would be made up of:

Officer
Medic
Auto Rifle
Auto Rifle
Grenadier/Marksman/Rifleman AT
Grenadier/Marksman/Rifleman AT

hence, no more riflemen in the game, which SHOULD be the backbone of a squad.

anyways, the amount of requestable grenadier and auto rifle has been increased (in 0851 actually), so it will definitely be different in v0.85 than v0.8

also the time to request these kits has been reduced, so these infantry kits should be much more avaliable in v0.85.

But I personally dont agree with the statement that you should ALWAYS have access to these weapons. Should your entire squad die on the frontline, that should not just be a minor detail, it should set your team back and actually have consequence to the battle. Especially if you were carrying important kit in the squad.

Think of the limited kits for a second as a team resource. You wouldnt expect a team resource like a tank or apc to be instantly avaliable to your squad at all times, even when you were just destryoed in one. The same way I believe should be thought about for these powerful squad weapons. If you failed an attack on an enemy positions and lost your entire squad and all your valuable kits, the logical next choice would be to re-group, hold position and dig-in, bracing for the enemy counter attack while waiting for your team/squad to regroup and another attack. Repeatedly attacking the same position over and over again regardless of previous assaults and regardless of whether you are in an advantageous position to do so is not the kind of gameplay were interested in. This is spammy/grind-like behaviour, and makes maps boring and repetitive. We want to try to avoid this style of play whenever possible, as its neither realistic or interesting. Allowing squads to always have access to the best weapons right from their spawn (RP) will just encourage this grind like behavior.

Fuzzhead, all this can be summed up in one sentence:

Riflemen are NOT the core of infantry, the MG is.

This was decided in the early 20th century. If you don't have a SAW in your squad you are essentially irrelevant.

[fuzzhead]

clark I agree, especially with the auto rifle i would really like to see these deployed more often and used in a PROPER role, suppression of the enemy. I think they will be much more effective in v0.85. But I would NOT like to see these return to status of rambo kits, which for a long time that was their only purpose in PR. I think the changes in v0.85 are going to go a long way to helping these kits being used in a proper squad role and not just a hunter-killer mentality.

CAS: tactics are based around an MG, but rifleman is still the core makeup of a squad. Im not going to bicker about this point but having no rifleman in a squad is just as unrealistic as having no SAW in a squad.

[AnRK]

Who's seriously suggesting unlimited auto-riflemen? I can't see a post that implies that, nevermind.

Anyway, (to the DEVs), do you guys really not think that 1 GL and 1 AR is reasonable to spawn with? Given that there's no pickup from rallies anymore it seems fair enough given that their core kits, and if there's an overall restriction implemented as well (so you don't get the thing abused by loads of armed to the teeth 3 man squads) I can't see why it's not fair enough to have them straight off and always part of the squad.

[gclark03]

A possible solution:

Only the auto rifleman and grenadier kits would be available at rally points.

That kind of limited rally request system increases the chance that squad members will request those kits and keeps a good number of them playing Rifleman by retaining the kits on the limited kit restrictions we have now.

[CAS_117]

CAS: tactics are based around an MG, but rifleman is still the core makeup of a squad. Im not going to bicker about this point but having no rifleman in a squad is just as unrealistic as having no SAW in a squad.

So... for a squad to employ realistic tactics, they should have at least 1 LMG yes?

[fuzzhead]

and 9 times out of 10, an LMG is always avaliable in the current gameplay. However the LMG is not as useful for suppressive fire as it should be, and there is multiple reasons for that probably.

[Spec]

and 9 times out of 10, an LMG is always avaliable in the current gameplay. However the LMG is not as useful for suppressive fire as it should be, and there is multiple reasons for that probably.

Come on, give us a wink or something

Accuracy has been increased for the LMG's i read somewhere, tho.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

yes, there was actually


Okay so a typical infantry squad would be made up of:

Officer
Medic
Auto Rifle
Auto Rifle
Grenadier/Marksman/Rifleman AT
Grenadier/Marksman/Rifleman AT

hence, no more riflemen in the game, which SHOULD be the backbone of a squad.

I don't believe anywhere in his post he stated that there should be 2 marksman or rifleman AT in a squad or even grenadier. He said 2 "automatic rifleman" is more realistic because that is what is required to put down accurate supression sometimes.

But as already stated, the weapon selection screen thing isn't able to be fixed cus of coding, so it is a moot point.

anyways, the amount of requestable grenadier and auto rifle has been increased (in 0851 actually), so it will definitely be different in v0.85 than v0.8

also the time to request these kits has been reduced, so these infantry kits should be much more avaliable in v0.85.

So the time has been reduced to request these kits (which is a very good thing), but they are only requestable now from Supply crates? So what was the point of even implimenting it in the first place when the time it takes to walk back to a supply crate to request it than back to the front is basically the same amount of time as now? Seems contradictory IMO. Unless of course Automatic Rifleman and Grenadier are still requestable from RPs which most of us are suggesting should happen.

But I personally dont agree with the statement that you should ALWAYS have access to these weapons. Should your entire squad die on the frontline, that should not just be a minor detail, it should set your team back and actually have consequence to the battle. Especially if you were carrying important kit in the squad.

You should ALWAYS have access to the Automatic Rifleman kit considering it is what the basic fireteam is built around and the grenadier as well. Just because a squad is wiped out doesn't mean it was fighting. Want examples all of us see ingame of this happening?

-Chopper pilot crashes= No SAW
-A speeding vodnik/humvee/vehicle ingame, friendly or enemy
-Enemy troop gets lucky and tosses 1 nade on a squad
-Tank/apc, but no infantry in sight
etc.

Now, with the HAT and LAT AT, I agree with you and what is in place now is fine for those weapons. But with more armor coming in the next release, it maybe a good idea to keep that requestable on RPs unless we want to rest the fate of an entire team on the hands of a couple supply crates and 1 or 2"realiable" troops to save alive.

Think of the limited kits for a second as a team resource. You wouldnt expect a team resource like a tank or apc to be instantly avaliable to your squad at all times, even when you were just destryoed in one. The same way I believe should be thought about for these powerful squad weapons. If you failed an attack on an enemy positions and lost your entire squad and all your valuable kits, the logical next choice would be to re-group, hold position and dig-in, bracing for the enemy counter attack while waiting for your team/squad to regroup and another attack. Repeatedly attacking the same position over and over again regardless of previous assaults and regardless of whether you are in an advantageous position to do so is not the kind of gameplay were interested in. This is spammy/grind-like behaviour, and makes maps boring and repetitive. We want to try to avoid this style of play whenever possible, as its neither realistic or interesting. Allowing squads to always have access to the best weapons right from their spawn (RP) will just encourage this grind like behavior.

You can't think of the limited kits as a team resource.


A team can survive without a tank or apc. There are alternatives such as HAT/LAT. A fireteam/squad in real life, cannot survive without an automatic rifleman or operate effectively. There is no alternative for them, since 1,2, or even 3 rifleman cannot begin to equal the fire of 1 SAW.



And having an automatic rifleman from the get go is "unrealistic?" If someone gets taken out on the battlefield, there will always be someone there to fill his role and carry the automatic rifleman. ALWAYS. Why should that stop at PR? If a player gets killed, and respawns, just think of him as another person picking up the slack of the previous person killed. He is also less likely to repeat his same mistake and get killed as easily.

[crazy11]

How about 9 requestable Auto-rifleman and Grenadiers per team, with a limit of one per squad. Leave the DM the way it is. The squad would be like this:

Squad Leader
Medic
Rifleman
Rifleman/DM
Auto-rifleman or Grenadier
Auto-rifleman or Grenadier

Make Auto-rifleman/Grenadier requestable at rallies/ mains.

[Thermis]

I think Squad automatic weapons should be more available. IRL a squad is made up of 2 fire teams. Each fire team having its own SAW. Light machine guns are an intricate part of modern infantry tactics and have been so ever since the second world war. PR should reflect this, when engaging enemy infantry in game the SL should think "I wonder where the enemy squads SAW is" not "I wonder if the enemy squad has a SAW"

I think Crazys idea would help PR be more realistic.

[Jaymz]

So... for a squad to employ realistic tactics, they should have at least 1 LMG yes?

And 6 squads will each have one in 0.85 (instead of 3). So we're doubling the amount.

[Outlawz7]

And 6 squads will each have one in 0.85 (instead of 3). So we're doubling the amount.

I swear I saw '4 squads' a minute ago...6 squads?? Anyone forgot that there's at least one commander or a vehicle crew squad that won't be using those?
Or is the new idea based around six 5-man squads isntead of five 6-man squads?

[Jaymz]

I swear I saw '4 squads' a minute ago...6 squads?? Anyone forgot that there's at least one commander or a vehicle crew squad that won't be using those?
Or is the new idea based around six 5-man squads isntead of five 6-man squads?

It's currently being discussed which is why I edited my post