Remove scopes from grenadier, LAT, SL

[Oak]

I guess this is a fork of https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... -menu.html.

The idea is removing the scope from the grenadier, LAT and (possibly) squad leader kits. This suggestion would probably combine well with returning the grenadier, LAT and AR kits to the spawn menu.

Why? Mainly because it will give a huge incentive to playing rifleman. Currently, many people prefer grenadier / LAT to rifleman because their main weapon is exactly the same, and they get a powerful weapon in place of the rifleman's hand-grenades and ammo bag. Removing the scopes from these kits would make them far more specialized, and it would leave the rifleman to dominate medium range encounters. Plus, it would probably make the DM an actual asset.

Right now a typical squad formation is SL, medic, AR, grenadier, DM and a rifleman who's only a rifleman because everything else was taken. Well, I'm exaggerating (hand grenades and ammo ARE nice, after all) but don't tell me this doesn't happen, especially when those specialized kits are available. I've rarely seen a squad with 2 or more riflemen except when all special kits are taken.

After removing the scopes, I think squads are more likely to include 2 or 3 rifleman even when other kits are available, and that is probably more realistic.

Now, the structure of many PR maps makes medium-range encounters common, which would put those kits at a disadvantage. However, I think that

1. Grenadier and LAT kits have their own special goal on the battlefield, so they should - just like the medic - rely on other members of the squad for regular long range fire and focus on their own objectives.
2. Unlike the medic, both of those kits are actually capable of medium-range combat, just in their own way and with limited ammunition.

As for the squad-leader I'm unsure. I guess that if the suggestion is attempted and the amount of scopes on the battlefield turns out to be too low then they should retain their scope, but otherwise they should not, to encourage squad members to take the rifleman kit. Plus, if their scopes are removed we'll see them use their binoculars a lot more, which looks very good on squad-leaders.

[$kelet0r]

We whined and begged and moaned for scopes - hopefully we won't be going backwards. The argument being that LAT, UGL and LMG armed soldiers are integral to the infantry rather than specialists like medics, engineers and HAT - hence the ironsights for them. I'd love to see the LMGs get scopes so that they can be used properly at last - for medium to long range suppressive fire as opposed to the static CQC that they are forced into due to the limits of pixels

[Oak]

The argument being that LAT, UGL and LMG armed soldiers are integral to the infantry rather than specialists like medics, engineers and HAT - hence the ironsights for them.

That's a good argument, my point is more to make the rifleman important than to cripple the other kits.

By the way, I was surprised (and disappointed) when I saw the grenadiers getting scopes - it really makes them a very powerful kit for middle range.

[single.shot (nor)]

unrealistic, as almost every soldier has an optic.

[ostupidman]

Like skeletor said those kits are integral to an infantry squad. We simply can't have enough men per server or even squad to fill what a standard RL squad would consist of, meaning that we have to adjust. Keep the scopes it was a welcome change.

[$kelet0r]

I can understand your point of view but having played PR when no weapons had a scope I can honestly say the game is much much better now with their inclusion. I don't know if it is the BF2 engine but rendering of soldiers past 50m is so poor that they are nearly invisible sometimes - with ironsights, all combat would be (and was) at extreme close quarters which was not fun to play when PR was meant to be tactical and realistic.

[Scot]

It's a big step backwards IMO, I know every British soldier on active duty is issued with Optics, I would imagine it is the same in the other armies aswell, so it's unrealistic.

[Thermis]

The basic truth of the matter is that almost every soldier has optics in todays modern military. So less optics would be totally unrealistic. You could give everyone M68s and Eotechs but that would bring the range of combat down a lot, and I think that isn't where this mod should go. Medium range combat is realistic and frankly more fun.

[[uBp]Irish]

If you look at the kits... they're pretty much rifleman anyway + something else.

Rifleman AT is just a guy with a giant LAT on his back. Once he fires it.. he's a rifleman anyway. Just because he has a LAT on his back should not mean he should get his optic taken away.

Like everyone has said, this is just a step backwards for this mod.

[Cobhris]

Q:What's a DM?

I think these kits ought to keep the scopes. It's not as if they are unlimited, and taking them away means a squad will be all rifles unless an APC attacks.

Squad should be:

Officer
Medic
Auto Rifleman
Grenadier
Rifleman
Rifleman/Special kit as needed

[Hitperson]

designated marksman

[master of the templars]

Q:What's a DM?

Designated Marksman


on topic why do you want to force people to play rifleman though?

[jbgeezer]

unrealistic, as almost every soldier has an optic.

red dot maybe, but thats just an impooved ironsight if u ask me

[Solid Knight]

Seems rather pointless. There really isn't a problem with people not playing as rifleman.

[iOxide]

red dot maybe, but thats just an impooved ironsight if u ask me

Generally from what i can tell from my friend whos in a Active duty infantryman in the united states army is that the soldier has a choice for what they use, hes a SAW gunner(not sure what the military term is) but for day operations in close quarters he uses iron sights, for night operations he uses a NV optic, for day operations in semi- close quarters/medium he uses a type of optic. I've also seen many pictures with solders with wide range of optic sights.

To red dot optics, to the eotech holographic sights, along with the acog etc.

It depends on the solder and what he wants, how ever generally i think it would be nice to have all kits with a type of optics wether it be Red dot or Acog it make it a lot nicer as i hate playing medic as i cant see shit due to the shiloete(sp) of the enemy is so small i can hardly get my iron sights on them(marines side)

I also agree removing the optics will take Pr a step back, a very big one i might say. I play mostly marine maps as there only a few army maps and if i remember a saying Every marine is a rifle man, so there for taking otpics away from a HAT/LAT etc because hes a "specialized" kit isn't right due to the have a specialized weapon, in the long run they're still a rifleman so they shouldn't be treated differently. Same with army.

[CanuckCommander]

I guess this is a fork of https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... -menu.html.

The idea is removing the scope from the grenadier, LAT and (possibly) squad leader kits. This suggestion would probably combine well with returning the grenadier, LAT and AR kits to the spawn menu.

Why? Mainly because it will give a huge incentive to playing rifleman. Currently, many people prefer grenadier / LAT to rifleman because their main weapon is exactly the same, and they get a powerful weapon in place of the rifleman's hand-grenades and ammo bag. Removing the scopes from these kits would make them far more specialized, and it would leave the rifleman to dominate medium range encounters. Plus, it would probably make the DM an actual asset.

Right now a typical squad formation is SL, medic, AR, grenadier, DM and a rifleman who's only a rifleman because everything else was taken. Well, I'm exaggerating (hand grenades and ammo ARE nice, after all) but don't tell me this doesn't happen, especially when those specialized kits are available. I've rarely seen a squad with 2 or more riflemen except when all special kits are taken.

After removing the scopes, I think squads are more likely to include 2 or 3 rifleman even when other kits are available, and that is probably more realistic.

Now, the structure of many PR maps makes medium-range encounters common, which would put those kits at a disadvantage. However, I think that

1. Grenadier and LAT kits have their own special goal on the battlefield, so they should - just like the medic - rely on other members of the squad for regular long range fire and focus on their own objectives.
2. Unlike the medic, both of those kits are actually capable of medium-range combat, just in their own way and with limited ammunition.

As for the squad-leader I'm unsure. I guess that if the suggestion is attempted and the amount of scopes on the battlefield turns out to be too low then they should retain their scope, but otherwise they should not, to encourage squad members to take the rifleman kit. Plus, if their scopes are removed we'll see them use their binoculars a lot more, which looks very good on squad-leaders.

First of all, there shouldn't be a reason you walk around with a AT4 or other AT on your backs anyways. A good SL will tell you to remain rifleman, until you need a AT or grenadier, which you can quickly acquire from a nearby rally.

If you walk around with an AT kit, you risk being targeted or shot to death. When you lose the kit, your squad is screwed against any armor since there are only 3 on each team with 5 minute spawns.

BUT, if you want to talk about realism, the team size in PR is about half of a platoon (60 men). If there are 3 AT rockets in a force of 30 men, that is very very reasonable.

Anyways, the point is scopes are very important on the battlefield. Most soldiers will purchase their own scopes anyways. Also, the engine limitations make ironsights very hard to use.

[Oak]

Designated Marksman


on topic why do you want to force people to play rifleman though?

I got the feeling the rifleman is intended to be the most common kit on the field, as most troops IRL probably are riflemen.

Judging from the (negative) responses, though, perhaps I was wrong and the rifleman should be just as common as all the rest.

[Jigsaw]

Massive step backwards if you ask me, and unrealistic as others have said, the vast majority of infantrymen in active service are issued with scopes.

I can see the reasoning, but no.

[charliegrs]

First of all, there shouldn't be a reason you walk around with a AT4 or other AT on your backs anyways. A good SL will tell you to remain rifleman, until you need a AT or grenadier, which you can quickly acquire from a nearby rally.

If you walk around with an AT kit, you risk being targeted or shot to death. When you lose the kit, your squad is screwed against any armor since there are only 3 on each team with 5 minute spawns.

BUT, if you want to talk about realism, the team size in PR is about half of a platoon (60 men). If there are 3 AT rockets in a force of 30 men, that is very very reasonable.

Anyways, the point is scopes are very important on the battlefield. Most soldiers will purchase their own scopes anyways. Also, the engine limitations make ironsights very hard to use.

this is so not the right way to play, relying on rally points instead of having a squad fully outfitted from the get go for all situations. this doesnt even sound easy to do, what if the rallys not that close? an apc comes up at you, what happens someone has to run back to the rally to grab an AT kit while the rest of your squad gets vaporized? plus, i dont think this style of play will be possible in .85, and now i can see why. also, your whole squad risks getting killed whenever you venture out, not just the AT guys, which is why you should keep the AT guys in the back of the squad and keep the riflemen up front.

[badmojo420]

I suggested they let us pick Aimpoint/Ironsight or Optic with the right or left mouse click for the requested kits. But i don't think it got much attention.

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... -kits.html

But, I'm very much against putting LAT as a spawn kit. I love LAT, but damnit not everyone needs one. Its unrealistic.