Completely Removing the map with friendly positions for infantry

[badmojo420]

hmmm. This would be better for realism but would increase the hard-core level so much more! Remember all the shouting and stuff going on when they wanted to remove the mini-map onscreen? This will be such a thing as well.

What happens when your cut uff with your SL. Or when you spawn in later because you just joined? You got to wait for your SL.

In real life soldiers get to look at a map area for a lot of time to memorise the area before going in. We dont do that here. Thats why at least everyone needs a map.

People should retain the map with all the icons and players while they're dead and picking a spawn. I'm not sure if that is possible. But it would simulate, like you said, studying a map of the area before going in. So you would see where you squad is, and where you need to go from the location you are inserted. And if you leave or are kicked from a squad mid-life, just ask in squad chat or voip where everyone is. And you still have those 3d markers set by the SL.

Im not a huge fan of removing the icons as well. Remember not everyone has the best equipment to play PR. So those players will TK a lot more increasing irritation amongst there team killed players and themselves.

I have a computer which is more then i need to play PR on full settings at the resolution i do. And i still tk people from time to time because they honestly look like an enemy. But when it happens, i don't say "well this system is stupid, so i won't adapt to it, i'll just keep firing like i've been firing" instead i watch my fire and get other people looking at the target from other angles, check it with binoculars, etc. I find most people who play PR don't like TK'ing. More often then not, i've seen players who TK and then hesitate the next time they see an enemy. Also, in situations where you see a player on your map, but 2 players with your eyes. So you might open fire and kill the friendly. These types of situation would be avoided. The problem is, we know 100% fact, that one of those 2 guys is an enemy, the computer says so.

Dont forget that this is still somewhat of a game. For true realism go ARMA or OFP2 when its released.

True, extreme realism games are great and all, but i'm looking for the best team play i can find. Not the most realistic. And PR beats most other real world games(i dont like killing aliens and diving hoverjets) as far as team play is concerned. Where else can you play huge maps, with 64 people and loads of vehicles, and those people (for the most part) actually play as a team and not just for their personal k/d ratio. I've played many games in my life, but only been addicted to 3, Kingpin: Life of Crime, Counter-Strike, and ProjectReality. All team play heavy games, that still managed to be great shooters. I'm one of those people who loves to get first on the scoreboard and have 0 kills. Or get last, but know the few things i did helped the bigger picture.

I don't want these changes because they are what happens in the real world. They happen in the real world because they reinforce good team work. You follow your officers into battle, you don't get the same view of what going on. You shouldn't be able to pull up a map, watch blue dots start disappearing around you and say "screw this i'm ignoring the SLs and Commanders orders to hold this position and i'm running away" All you would know is that the SL ordered you to hold that position, so you're doing that. Currently there is no reason to be commander tho, because everyone has the same map. If it wasn't for SL voip and Area Attack it would be useless.

[cyberzomby]

Great Reply! Thanks

Well that TK story seems like a common story I had it myself as well. And dont get me wrong. Im not the guy that shoots anything that moves. I need to verify it first. By Binocs mostly and when I cant reach those because of a vehicle Im in I get the map.

btw! Have you seen Generation Kill? Its a tv series from HBO about a recon marine company in humvee's. One of the main charachters uses a blue force tracker. That machine shows where the friendly's are on a map. Its real-time. Dont forget that PR is several years in the future so it would not be that weird if those blue force trackers are more common in the army's. So that would justify at least friendly icons on your map.

If the dead and spawning soldiers get to look at the map the system is better. And ofcourse like you said you can talk to your fellow soldiers.

You shouldn't be able to pull up a map, watch blue dots start disappearing around you and say "screw this i'm ignoring the SLs and Commanders orders to hold this position and i'm running away" All you would know is that the SL ordered you to hold that position, so you're doing that. Currently there is no reason to be commander tho, because everyone has the same map. If it wasn't for SL voip and Area Attack it would be useless.

Do not agree with the first sentence in here (like I said the blue force tracker is available ) but I see the no friendlys on the map for regular sm's help for the reason you posted here. Sticking with your squad leader.
I dont get that a lot though. Usually when Im in a squad or squad lead we all stick with our squad.
But I can see it help though I only play on TG en T&T, its pretty solid there. But I can see it help on the not teamwork enforced servers.

I'm one of those people who loves to get first on the scoreboard and have 0 kills. Or get last, but know the few things i did helped the bigger picture.

Ditto I had a game last friday of Ejod where I spend almost the entire round watching the north arch in east city. Nothing happened around us but incase the enemy decided to show up we needed to be there. I fired 30 rounds that entire game And that was just to surpress instead of kill.

(just to show Im not one of those people that see's this as a FPS shooter that needs more arcade stuff)

[badmojo420]

I have seen generation kill, but not every soldier carriers around the blue force tracker. The one guy, Poke, even comments on how nice it is, so they're not even in every vehicle. But maybe all PR vehicles should have them, since we don't have mirrors, and can't shout out the window to look out behind. But mainly it's the infantry that should lose the ability.

It's not that the change would help people stick together. It would just make you more dependent on those people around you. If you didn't know there were 2 friendly squads just 50m behind that hill, would you act differently in that area? I think so. People would move as a unit, report friendlies as well as enemies. And generally rely on what you see happening versus seeing green arrows behind you on the map.

[cyberzomby]

on the tracker: I know. but thats current year. PR is several years ahead. So thats why I brought it up together with the statement that since PR is in the future its more spread troughout the army. Maybe even a portable infantry mans version for squadleader.

[Oak]

I proposed a similar suggestion here:
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... -only.html
The difference is that the OP's suggestion is

1. Better worded
2. More hardcore

So I definitely approve

It's hard to say without testing, but I really think something like that would propel PR to the next level of awesomeness.

[fuzzhead]

Removing the map itself is unnecessary, however, removing moving-blues and only being able to see moving-greens and commander/SL-icons would finalize the step intended when the Garmin was removed from infantrymen. If anything, that is the BEST solution to make the Commander useful and the game, by far more realistic.

In perfect world, that would optimal, but Bf2 map is very hard to edit and have to make many compromises.

Ideally I would do it like this if it was easy to edit:

Squad Members - Map with just your own squad leader on it. You dont see vehicles, other players or even yourself. The only thing you see is your squad leader and objective markers placed by the game mode and your team.

Squad Leaders - Map with all friendly squad leaders and vehicles. You do not see blue infantry dots.

Commander - Same exact view as present.

This I think would be optimal for PR.

[Oak]

In perfect world, that would optimal, but Bf2 map is very hard to edit and have to make many compromises.

The idea proposed earlier in this thread - to make the map a form of weapon - could be used to circumvent that, perhaps. If the texture of the map could be dynamic (for example, to display the markers), maybe it could also display the location of other things - like other squad leaders.

It doesn't even have to be dynamic, just be updated whenever the map is used. Or perhaps every x seconds/minutes, regardless of map use.

[fuzzhead]

be my guest, if you can figure a way we will be happy to integrate it immediately

farcry 2 had a really cool way of doing this..

[Solid Knight]

I'm all about having a minimal map.

SM -- Topographical map with markers only (nothing by markers, you keep track of where you are).
SL -- Same as above but can place markers for squad.
CMDR -- Vehicles positions and SL positions automatically updated along with markers. Will need new markers for marking friendly positions. Perhaps even a variety of friendly markers that vary in broadness.

Of course the downside to all this is that you won't be able to find those trouble makers via the map anymore. You might need to release an admin tool pack for that.

[DannyIMK]

the map is great now! don't change it anymore. i know that PR objective is realism but lets not forget fun and gameplay

[Tannhauser]

farcry 2 had a really cool way of doing this..

Oh god yes, even tho seeing a garmin on every frickin vehicle, crappy old or shiny new all together, it's awesomeness in form of a 3D moving map object & GPS that doesn't look as aggressive as a permanent hud threatening to burn-on your plasma screen if you play too long.
Ubisoft is awesome isn't it?

But about the 3D model map, forget it, low quality textures will screw it up first for anyone who has low/medium graphics in PR and second, I don't think animated-dynamic-networkable texturing is possible for BF2 Python. It's possible for BF2142 tho, only problem is if your graphics are low, you're screw.

if we have to remove all green-blue icons as I guess BF2 won't let us individualy set them as usual, then let's do it? I think whatsoever it'd be a great challenge, but a great improvement and step towards realism.
And gosh, finally the commanders will be vital components.

Will need new markers for marking friendly positions. Perhaps even a variety of friendly markers that vary in broadness.

Best in that case would be markers for each numbers of squads from 1 to 9 and movement arrows, maybe lines?

[Solid Knight]

Best in that case would be markers for each numbers of squads from 1 to 9 and movement arrows, maybe lines?

I was thinking along the lines of just friendlies and what they were doing.

Like a blue shield for a defending squad, a blue sword for an attacking squad, and a blue circle for a squad position.

[Arnoldio]

I tottaly support topographical map with only your marker on it and mybe SL's too. I dont care if weapon or normal map as it is now. The problem with map in wepon slot is (probably) that it cannot change textures, therefore only CO could see which flags to attack in AAS, and where are the crates positioned in insurgency...

Nice feature would be if you place the map as an weapon, you can throw it on the ground, so the whole squad could get a good look at it with their weapons ready, and then you could pick it back up like the grapple.

Another the prob is, how bad the texture would be if played on a low-end computer.

[AnRK]

There was a suggestion before the one you mentioned a while back, anyway in it I suggested that perhaps you could have the map have nothing on it but your squads location and the SL style numbers for all the other squads.

What you could then do with that is make the squad icons remain static, and then SLs would have to update their location ala deploying a rally point, something you would be hard pressed to do under fire, and perhaps something you could put a 30 second-1minute or something like that cap on, so people can't spam it all the time. Could also make this apply to friendly assets i.e tanks. I dunno how stuff works in real life, but I imagine squads report in their position in a similar fashion every few minutes.

As for the knowing what each squad is doing surely that would just promote the commander role, something it could do with.

[McBumLuv]

Thank you all for the replies, with the positive feedback as well as the constructive criticism. It's true that this has been suggested before, under varied terms and conditions, and only in piecemeal form. I decided to sum it up and give explanations on how it would most likely effect gameplay in a very positive, if a little hard-core, manner.

cyberzomby, you provide good points, and I thank you for it. Before we can implement this, we must find all the possible negative effects and figure out a way to minimize them. I believe that while this may seem to become more "hard-core", it won't actually be that apparent. Why? Because people will adapt, in fact people have to adapt, to every change featured in every release of pr. Removing the spawns off the SL and the mini-map for infantry was seen as too hardcore, although both had less positive feedback from the community than this iirc.

As to the question about spawning, I've thought about it, and I've decided that perhaps the spawn screen should show the spawn locations, as well as (if possible) the SL position, though that might not even be needed. This will require squads to stick much closer together, while at the same time keeping their spacing. I"m not suggesting taking off the 3d sights (though that could be addressed at some point ), so those makers could still be used to coordinate the squad (though I wouldn't want the markers to show up on the map).

I really hope to see this implemented to promote closer teamwork, more immersion with fewer artificial and unrealistic HUD, and to promote the purpose of the commander as more necessary for, well, commanding. I can assure you, if SLs don't have the complete information of the battlefield, as they don't irl, a commander would be able to command properly. Currently, he has very little purpose since everyone knows what to attack and defend, and can use team-chat to request pick-ups, etc...

[Spec]

1. How do you select your spawn point? Do you have a black caps-map with only the spawn points visible?

2. Make the map tossable and with unlimited ammo - but only one tossed map can exist in the world at once. This is to give the SL the option to show others the maps and explain something.

3. Have static maps at all spawn points so players at least know where the enemy is. (Note: The enemy as in, the enemy base, not the soldiers themselves of course)

[Solid Knight]

You'd select your spawn point the same way your currently do--there's no way around that.

[White Rock]

I really hope to see this implemented to promote closer teamwork, more immersion with fewer artificial and unrealistic HUD, and to promote the purpose of the commander as more necessary for, well, commanding. I can assure you, if SLs don't have the complete information of the battlefield, as they don't irl, a commander would be able to command properly. Currently, he has very little purpose since everyone knows what to attack and defend, and can use team-chat to request pick-ups, etc...

The problem of this is that the removal of the markers and no changes applied to the current commander situation will make a commander INDESPENSBLE while at the same time extremely boring for the majority of players. It will be go back to 0.7 again, where someone HAS to go commander or the team dies. And sometimes no one went commander in 0.7, when you needed one to build firebases.

And when you do not get a commander for your team, then you get a totally disorganised team that has to ask 5 times in a row where everyone's heading, not knowing if a whole squad or just a squadleader is at a position and having to rely on the squad screen to try figure how many troops are in squads 3 squad and where they at and what kits they have and so on.

Not many will go commander even if you try to make em to.

[McBumLuv]

The problem of this is that the removal of the markers and no changes applied to the current commander situation will make a commander INDESPENSBLE while at the same time extremely boring for the majority of players. It will be go back to 0.7 again, where someone HAS to go commander or the team dies. And sometimes no one went commander in 0.7, when you needed one to build firebases.

And when you do not get a commander for your team, then you get a totally disorganised team that has to ask 5 times in a row where everyone's heading, not knowing if a whole squad or just a squadleader is at a position and having to rely on the squad screen to try figure how many troops are in squads 3 squad and where they at and what kits they have and so on.

Not many will go commander even if you try to make em to.

I know, but unfortunately, the reason the commander doesn't work is because he has no use, everyone knows what they're doing. So the only thing the commander can do is wait an hour and allow an area attack. while in 0.7 you had to have a commander, at least you had them. Of course they were only mandatory for FOBs and such, but they were still much more useful. I'd like to find a compromise between making the commander absolutely necessary, and making the commander not necessary, but extremely useful and has a purpose. besides, there are many people who would like to command like this, including myself, but it's ruined by the fact that every SL knows what to do completely.

It's like playing AoE, but all your units act on their own, disregarding or compromising with your suggestions often because it doesn't agree with their own tactical plans.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Terrible idea. It has been raised countless times too.

Minimap= awareness. This isn't real life, you aren't already briefed on where to go, you don't have communication with other squads or fireteams, and you are not moving in a large formation such as a platoon. How are you supposed to know what and who is around you when moving? Even if your squad saw everyone in your squad, what about if they wanted to heal someone or were told to help out with another squad or something? There are too many opportunities for this to backfire because most players lack awareness already.

The minimap is even more important for when you have no commander. Face it, no one likes going Commander anymore, and even if people do, you can't place the outcome of a game solely on 1 person.

When I am SL and want to coordinate with other squads, how do I do it? Check my minimap and tell my squad to form up with another squad so we can move together. If all I see as a SL is just another SL, how am I to know he even has a squad there with him or if they are scattered across the map????