00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:A heli wouldn't just stand there in real life and take that kind of fire and it is a risk to lose a chopper for 1 damn point.
Americans have firsthand knowlage of risking choppers for airborne cover, I think American doctrine is not troop suvival, its mission sucess and if risking a helicopter for a point on the battlefield then i dont see why not, Last guy alive, no enemy's around and an unguarded flag; but he has to land and then get the point?
Low flying helicopters are quite a scene and gives your team on the ground a sence that they can rely on the firepower and droped troops.
My theory runs on: Helicopter lands and drops soldiers outside of the danger area >> Troop's capture and secure the area >> Helicopter captures point >> Chocolate bar finnished, time to load up on the chopper and do the same thing or land for repair.
"I am not bald, i shave my head" "How could you falter when you're the rock of Gibraltar"
OK, if a heli wanted to say and help out, let it, but it should still not be able to cap the flag. That is jsut not realistic. And what are the chances of a blackhawk landing right in the center of a huge zone where you know there is going to be heavy fighting?
The big transport choppers actually pose a treat to infantry seeing as how no one is going to stay and man the guns and if they do, that is just a waste of another guy to help lower the cap time. Since he can't man the guns, the blackhawk will just be a bullet sponge, get blown up, and crash on the infantry or expose them if he stays and hovers.
Think about this. What are you more likely to see near the mosque on Mastuur, a blackhawk hovering or troops hiding behind the cinder blocks covering the area a little more safely 360 degrees around?
And the reason I said that cars should not be able to cap with people in them, especially the gunner's seat, is because it would require more men on the ground, and the transport guy would actually have to rely on others to help him out instead of getting a few easy kills. And as it is, the grenade launcher has minimal effect on the cars unless an absolute direct shot or 4 shots to blow it up or either have an AT on your side which isn't that likely.
The point is, by making everyone get out, you will rely on more members to be at the flag area such as a squad or 2 since you have 1 or 2 guys in vehicles who are covering while not being able to cap.
Little Bird/Lynx medi-evac, nothink would be better than the single most injured person in the squad being picked up and carried back to the awaiting transport's and medic, they both get into the chopper again and fly off to restock the squad. ~ Love to see that!
"I am not bald, i shave my head" "How could you falter when you're the rock of Gibraltar"
Malik wrote:
As for boats, well they tend not to have a great part in flag capturing, the only real chance they have to capture a flag is the beach on Wake. Probably the same rules as the transport could be implemented, otherwise just ban it altogether. While on the subject of boats, if we ever see chinese and MEC boats implemented, I sure hope boats, like choppers and heavy vehicles, become team specific. Sneaking round with a boat then getting out is suicide, the big empty boat symbol appears on the map and anyone with two brain cells can work out there are people down there, it's just like having the UAV back.QUOTE]
Good point! Many times I could defend a flag just because I saw an empty vehicle on the radar near a flag.
I don't see why armoured vehicle should not be able to cap a flag. Capping a flag is about controlling/dominating the area so if you killed all the enemy's at their flag why should you not be able to cap it? It would maybe lead to spawnraping while waiting for infantry support. And who is going to leave his tank while enemy's keep spawning. But I agree that helicopters should not be able to cap flags.
It stop a SINGLE MAN in a tank driving into an obscure base and take it will little effort and no team work, while a helpless enemy support or medic can only watch in vain as his base is caputure, with nothing he can do to defend it!?!?!
By getting out a vehicle you become more vunerable TO SOLVE THIS YOU WORK IN A TEAM!
Top _Cat the great wrote:It stop a SINGLE MAN in a tank driving into an obscure base and take it will little effort and no team work, while a helpless enemy support or medic can only watch in vain as his base is caputure, with nothing he can do to defend it!?!?!
By getting out a vehicle you become more vunerable TO SOLVE THIS YOU WORK IN A TEAM!
I am fully aware of that fact my enemy. Another idea is to make it that flags can only be captured by 3 are more people. THis could be a huge reason for squads to stick together. Becuase at present most players are in squads, the next stage is to get them working betting together, and this WOULD force them to stick together - "leave no man behind", would become the moto of all squads.
This would could also mean a decline in the number of small squads, these being not as helpfull as half as many larger ones.
The reason for the number 3 is because in is:
- half a full sized squad, and is therefore easily feasible for allmost all squads to complete, not exsisive or extreme.
- it increases the chance that the 3 poeple are co-operating, rather than jsut 2 poeple who randomly met up.
On 64 player amps this could possible increased to 4, due to almsot double the number of players compared to smaller games. This could even result in more Squad co-operation mabey.
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Malik wrote:It would also slow the game down a bit too, and personally I like that. The tanks and APCs rushing from the start of Steel Thunder would need to wait up for the troops before rushing to get the caps, and on other maps the team won't be able to rush the first cap points with the choppers. Would it be better to apply this to transport choppers as well? I don't see why everyone can't just hop out...
I think that the gameplay will be slowed to almost a standstill with 0.3, but lets see what happens when it comes out. I also think that the tank rush in the start of Steel Thunder is kind of cool and the massive armored clash is kind of cool.
With AAS and therefore a hell lot of defenders constantly spawning with the newest hit in portable AT-systems I do not think that disallowing tanks or other vehicles to cap a flag would change anything at all. In my experience, trying to cap a flag on an AAS server in a vehicle is the same thing as going in with a big neonsign above my head telling everybody that I am here at your flag! I actually think that once 0.3 comes out we will have to rethink the AAS principle because battles will very soon end up with nothing happening at all!
If you want to make this change, put it at the bottom of the list as it will not change gameplay in any significant way
Top _Cat the great wrote:I am fully aware of that fact my enemy. Another idea is to make it that flags can only be captured by 3 are more people. THis could be a huge reason for squads to stick together. Becuase at present most players are in squads, the next stage is to get them working betting together, and this WOULD force them to stick together - "leave no man behind", would become the moto of all squads.
This would could also mean a decline in the number of small squads, these being not as helpfull as half as many larger ones.
The reason for the number 3 is because in is:
- half a full sized squad, and is therefore easily feasible for allmost all squads to complete, not exsisive or extreme.
- it increases the chance that the 3 poeple are co-operating, rather than jsut 2 poeple who randomly met up.
On 64 player amps this could possible increased to 4, due to almsot double the number of players compared to smaller games. This could even result in more Squad co-operation mabey.
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I actually agree with the suggestion about making it so that you at least need 3 people in order to change a flag. As it is now, there are too many one man buggy rushes or tank rushes. This would actually improve teamwork, and make people follow the squad leader or be kicked from the squad for not helping.
Is there anyway this could happen? This is the one thing that would actually greatly improve teamwork in the game. Think about a lone wolve who is just from vanilla BF2 coming in and not being able to cap and just get killed. He will have no choice but to join a squad and adapt to the style of gameplay.
Steel of thunder with tanks is a mess, infantry cnat get any where becuase APC leave with 1 passenger, most tanks jsut charge at one point. Today when i was palyign i could not get to a falg because there where 5 wrecks blocking it!! Armour often never meet, with single AT men taking out streams of enemy tanks. RAMBO, RAMBO, RAMBo.IT is not realisitc, it is arcady, there Is NO TEAMWORK. Squad leaders cnat transport there men around that easily due to lack of normal jeeps.
16 player is by far the best, with almost unparraled team tactics and co-orperation, however a big jeep on either side would speed gameplay up, due to lack of long trecks but with pr. 3 firefights will be more realisitic. WAR IS NEVER A STAND STILL, it might be a stalemate, war is about thinking, then fast movement then steady attact ext. IT IS A balance, making the intense parts tenser and the boring part less.
p.s i am going to post my above idea (3 man capture ) in ideas box! an d hope and pray.
Why 3 men? Anyway, the problem is simply solved: make the cap time 3 times greater so it takes 3 men to get the standard capture rate. Pretty much does the same job. Anyway, have you ever tried to capture a flag on your own on AAS? It takes absolutely ages, I don't see what the probem is.
NO beucase this still means 2 people can capture a flag, even a borded idiot (sniper) will jsut sit by a flag for like 5!
I we make it really simple then people WILL MAKE AN ACTIVE DECISION TO STICK TOGETHER BETTER IN SQUADS, unless the rules are clear then, NOTHING WILL CHANGE.
Alot of player have no idea about military tactics and never will, and unless the rules of gameplay are printed in front of them they WILL NOT ACT TACTICAL, alot of people do not put 2 and 2 together, Even i dont a times (tries always to use and think tacticS), what hope do those who never do have - NONE.
I cant seen any decent reason not to have this. IT IS ALOT SIMPLER than massive capture times, AND THE POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENTS TO PR are gameplay are huge.
AAS certainly helps with this situation. As does the "audit" we have performed on maps to make all the 0.3 maps take quite a long time to capture. In the Objective modes you can capture any flag at any time with any number of people .. it just takes a long time.
We will take a look at changing flag capture parameters for a future release. We've already got an idea in the works along the lines of what you guys are discussing here and some good thoughts have come up in this thread.
without reading the whole thread, here are my two cent:
if think you should be able to cap flags with a tank - i also think that it´s okay the way it is right now, that only the driver can do it.
you see, if the team is not entirely stupid they will have some at soldiers, and one of those can easily blow up a tank, not to mention an apc or a helicopter
Top _Cat the great wrote:WAR IS NEVER A STAND STILL, it might be a stalemate, war is about thinking, then fast movement then steady attact ext.
No, but PR have a tendency of becoming a stand still on the city maps with AAS. You could also add, that in war, it is seldomly really important to cap a square, and even when you have to, you cap it by clearing out the surrounding area. A 3 man cap would be great, if it was possible to cap the area by clearing out some safe strongpoints and stay there. However, in PR and vBF2 you have to run into the middle of the square and hope to survive multiple enemy spawns along with 10-20 snipers/supports pointing their guns at you! At the moment, surviving with 3 man within cap distance of any flag on an AAS server is almost impossible! When you begin to add seconds for each time you die in .3, I can assure you of one thing...The last thing I do, will be to try to cap anything...I'd rather stick back with a rifle/lmg and rake up kills And frankly, I do not think I will be the only person in this community thinking in that way.
The whole point of this is to make it so you can't cap alone or in any vehicles. I don't care if the capture was 1 sec below infinite, you will still have some idiot who will go after it time and time again unless he is forced to capture it with more people in the cap area then it is.
I don't think upping the time does anything but make it harder for a large squad to cap a flag since it basically becomes a nade spam fest when the enemy spans, and hardly any good squads make the flag the first go around.
Instead of increasing flag radius times, make it so you are forces to have at least 3 members on the flag in order to cap it like I said. This way, you are forcing everyone to basically be in a squad without making it manditory. You will also cut down on the lone wolves. Long cap times just give the enemy an advantage in the alread defense advantage AAS. With this method which me and Cat talked about, it will increase teamwork 10 fold, and at the same time cut down on those idiot that buggy rush alone or split from the squad to go off.
And again, it shouldn't be about how long you can last which is basically how it is now with the huge cap time and limited cover, it should be about how your squad cleared the area of enemies, and all secured the area within the flag without having to worry about 3 more enemies spawning in a few seconds later and nade spamming you from no where.
