My opinion on realism

[WeB-18Bravo]

Hello there,

I've been playing PR for a while now, and I wanted to make my own feedback on what, I personnally think, is exaggerated in words of realism.

First of all, the weapons' accuracy. Rifles in PR are a lot more accurate than in the original BF2 (thank God), but I really don't understand the concept of "letting the gun stabilize". I mean, let's take the M16A4 with the TA31 for instance : while having a good time walking around Fallujah, you see a naughty insurgent 50 meters away who starts aiming at you. And let us say that you wanna shoot him in a crouched position : you crouch, align the reticle of your ACOG on his chest, and you fire immediately at him : you'll miss.

That's because you did not wait 1 or 2 seconds for the weapon to "stabilize" (official PR reason). But what's the point in letting a gun stabilize ? Given the fact that the ACOG scope is zeroed and solidly fixed onto the rifle (means that it moves exactly with the barrel), why, if you aim at an enemy and fire, would the bullet go in another direction than the one of the barrel's axis ? This is just theoretically impossible. Why would you have to wait for the weapon to stabilize ? If you aim at the enemy, that means the axis of the gun's barrel is crossing the enemy, and, assuming the gun is firing straight to where it should to (at least at less than 100m), your bullet is gonna hit what you aimed at.

I just can't understand the concept of "stabilizing" the gun. In other words, or simpler, the bullet must go where I'm aiming to, because it obeys like everything to Physics laws, and once again, because I'm aiming through my ACOG which is zeroed and aligned with the barrel's axis.

Maybe the PR Modding guys wanted to simulate the fact that you need a bit time to stop moving and shacking, to concentrate to have the gun sit straight without moving. But in that case, why not make a little animation during wich you see yourself "stabilizing the gun" ? Moreover, there is already an animation where you see yourself shoulder the weapon and getting your eye in the rifle scope's eye relief, so once this is done, it should be fine.

Then, I also don't understand why APC and tank turrets need such time to get initialized. Swiss APCs turrets take 6 seconds to initialize for example. I assume there's a bit time to simulate the fact that you are getting into your firing position, turning the turret's command on etc., but it really does not take that much time.

The PR Team might have wanted to encourage multi-crewed armored vehicles and to remove the ease of both driving and firing an APC individually that you had in BF2. That's OK, but again, don't go too far, or in all cases, don't go farther than reality.

So, if you guys know wheter it's because of the reason above or another one I missed, please explain it to me. Because there's a risk of wanting to be too realistic, which is to make it unrealistic. And this is the only aspect of PR which can drive me insane. =P

Thanks for reading, and good night, folks.

[CodeRedFox]

We do this for a number of reasons, mainly we cant control dropping to a knee or the ground to fire. Its instant in BF2/PR. If we were able to do animation effecting players (ARMA) we could remove this settling time.

As far as arming times on tanks and apc this is to remove the loneman tanking, i.e one guy going out and being the gunner and driver. Switching back and forth with no delay. If we could make it where you had to climb through the apc, sit down, turn everything on, and target we would

[Jigsaw]

Lmao, you obviously never played PR v0.8.....

The stabilisation time is there as a game tool to simulate the difficulty of crouching aiming and shooting an enemy all in the same movement. In reality this is very unlikely to be a hit, so the time for the deviation to settle is there to simulate how hard it is to make that shot in real life in the heat of the moment.

And again, the delay to use an armoured vehicles main weapon is to prevent lone wolf tanking and thus encourage teamwork

Welcome to the mod

[DankE_SPB]

1. dunno that you will hit suddenly appeared target with 1st shot IRL+ its easier to aim with mouse sitting in chair at home.
btw did ya paly 0.8???
2. gameplay reason to avoid seat-switching tactics

[Doro]

Have you ever shot a M16 with an aimpoint is my question.

[WeB-18Bravo]

[R-DEV]CodeRedFox,
Yeah, it may be better for teamplay but the goal is realism, right ?
I don't mean to get back to BF2, I surely do not, but just to reduce the time of initializing the turret and make your gun fire straight as it should do, as I'm not specifically talking about firing right after going to the crouch or prone position.

Doro,
I'm an airsoft player and a real-firearm range shooter, and it just seems obvious to me that those details are exaggerated. You sometimes miss a guy 20 meters away for you were trying a rapid double tap. You really ask yourself sometimes : "Where did this damned bullet go ?".
By the way, we only have swiss FASS90 and some AK rifles at range, no AR15s.

DankE_SPB, jigsaw-uk,
I know what it all is for, I'm not saying it's false, I'm saying it takes too long compared to reality.
And what do you guys mean about having played PR 0.8 ? I've played every version since 0.5. -_-

[DankE_SPB]

same question again: did you play 0.8??

[Jigsaw]

M8 seriously be glad you never played 0.8 you would have found it unplayable.

The settle time for the deviation is a game mechanic to simulate the time it takes to drop to a crouch and shoulder your rifle. Remember that you can scope in whilst you are going to crouch so this may speed you up a bit.

If you do range shooting then I suggest you time yourself on how long it takes you to come around a corner, see an enemy 50m away, drop to one knee, shoulder your rifle, and then put an accurate round in to the target. You may be surprised just how long it takes.

As for the vehicle delay that is not going to be changed and thats a damn good thing. The goal of this mod is to encourage teamplay and realism. The minor sacrifice in realism by having the extended time delay is worth the increase in teamwork that it forces.

Edit: Lol played every version since 0.5? Then why the hell are you bringing your issue up now when this same issue has been improved tenfold in 0.85...

[nephros]

I posted this once before on this topic, but I think it is a nice example of how difficult shooting under combat situations is. This is an excerpt from the "Vietnam Primer" - an army manuscript produced during vietnam for distribution after analyzing after action reports during the first year of fighting. Note the range at which firing was innacurate...

When suddenly confronted by small numbers of the enemy, the Americans
firing their M-16's will in the overwhelming majority of cases miss a
target fully in view and not yet turning. Whether the firing is done by a
moving point or by a rifleman sitting steady in an ambush, the results are
about the same - five total misses out of six tries - and the data basis
includes several hundred such incidents. The inaccuracy prevails though
the usual such meeting is at 15 meters or less, and some of the firing is
at less than 10 feet.

[WeB-18Bravo]

jigsaw-uk,
Dude, it certainly was unplayable, but I'm talking about the current 0.85 version. And I didn't post that issue earlier cause I hadn't seen/didn't want to see the Forums section of the realitymod.com website.
I know it takes time in real life, and still :

I'm not specifically talking about firing right after going to the crouch or prone position.

Right, but why not make an animation effect in which, like I said, you see yourself taking a bit time to get the gun sit straight ? The only thing I'm talking about is that if you miss in real life, that's because you were not able aim correctly at the enemy. The little problem is, you actually manage to aim at the enemy, and the bullet does not go where it should go to.
In fact, that's the whole point of my suggestion.

nephros,
Right, but the guys may were scared, stressed, wanting to shoot faster than possible, cause their lives were at stake. Hopefully, we are in front of computer screens, and actually a lot more comfortable than those real warriors.

[Tartantyco]

-The error you have embarked upon here is thinking that Project Reality is about making all the weapons, vehicles, etc, mirror their real-world counterparts. Here's the problem; the BF2 engine(nor any engine in existence at this time) does not mirror reality, hence attempting to mirror reality in this way would not give you the desired outcome. A mouse and keyboard is not a weapon, it does not weigh several kilos and you will not have to carry loads of equipment around with you when playing this mod. If you die in the real world you do not respawn, and the battlefield is not limited to 64 players. The aim of the PR mod is to realistically replicate the conditions of the battlefield, not the characteristics of individual weapons and vehicles.

[CodeRedFox]

[R-DEV]CodeRedFox,
Yeah, it may be better for teamplay but the goal is realism, right ?

Sure but because the engine cant give us realism we create a way to simulate realism

I don't mean to get back to BF2, I surely do not, but just to reduce the time of initializing the turret and make your gun fire straight as it should do, as I'm not specifically talking about firing right after going to the crouch or prone position.

Well again unless you can fire the gun when opening the door and sitting down this is how we create a way to simulate realism.

[DeltaFart]

-The error you have embarked upon here is thinking that Project Reality is about making all the weapons, vehicles, etc, mirror their real-world counterparts. Here's the problem; the BF2 engine(nor any engine in existence at this time) does not mirror reality, hence attempting to mirror reality in this way would not give you the desired outcome. A mouse and keyboard is not a weapon, it does not weigh several kilos and you will not have to carry loads of equipment around with you when playing this mod. If you die in the real world you do not respawn, and the battlefield is not limited to 64 players. The aim of the PR mod is to realistically replicate the conditions of the battlefield, not the characteristics of individual weapons and vehicles.

Couldn't say it any better myself(mostly because I'm not taht good with words that fast)
Love how the community parrots itself
"Have you played .8?" jees the first time was understandable

[Jigsaw]

Right, but why not make an animation effect in which, like I said, you see yourself taking a bit time to get the gun sit straight?

Because that is hardcoded, and therefore impossible on the BF2 engine. Soz man.

[charliegrs]

i understand you want the delay taken out for the tank gunner position, well it wasnt always there. i think it was back in version .6 they introduced it. before that, it was horrible, every moron on the server would jump in a tank/apc and use it as a mobile pill box. the 30 second delay has done much to help against this, however im on the of those people who has suggested making it a full minute or even making the tank immobile until its fully crewed. its there for a good reason, its only 30 seconds of your life to make the mod better.

[Anderson29]

well i know we've all heard the stories on cops and other shooting incidents....not everyone gets shot with every first round. shooting in real life isn't as easy as aim and shoot...other wise every soldier in the military would be an expert marksman. i didn't get expert till a friend explained to me the bullet trajectory, how bullets rise and fall....i always thought they traveled in a straight line and started dropping at a certain distance. that's why when i was qualifying on the range i would always seem to miss the 175m-200m targets when i was aiming center mas and hitting the 300m targets then i learned to aim low on the mid range targets then finally qualified expert.
the bf engine cant simulate all the skills it takes to put actually accurate rounds downrange that is why we have a settle time..so my advice is to learn it and get use to it.....and lets start using search functions again.....this seems to be a never ending story/complaint

[WeB-18Bravo]

Guys,
OK. I agree on the fact that I'm a little bit going into the tiny details, but don't think that those things makes me disliking PR or whatever. I still firmly state that PR is one of the most realistic and interesting FPS I ever tried, but I just found it exaggerated and wanted to get confirmation what it really was for.
Now I have it and I thank you all for your answers, good night.

[Jigsaw]

Time for a lock me thinks

[Jaymz]

If we had a weapon handling system that combined both the capabilities of Armed Assault and Rainbow Six (the early ones), we would have....

1. A sway system designed around each and every stance.

2. A sighting system that doesn't mechanically attach your rifle to your cheek and perfectly stabilize itself while allowing you to rotate 180-360 degrees in a matter of milliseconds. Even while you're prone! Segue to point 3...

3. 1st person movement animations for all stances.

4. A stamina system that effects accuracy.

5. A realistic ballistics model where the travel path of a rifle round is not a straight line. (this is in public development on these forums but would require us to sacrifice realistic tracer intervals)

6. A system where a soldiers weapon isn't always in the hip/ready position.

Then, all we'd have to do is input factory setting MoA's on all weapons and we'd be fine. Unfortunately, one of BF2's biggest flaws (for us) is it's limitations on injecting realism. Especially doing so with weapon handling.

What we have in place with 0.85 isn't perfect, but it's a step closer towards to most realistic weapon handling/deviation that the BF2 engine can allow.

[CodeRedFox]

Now I have it and I thank you all for your answers, good night.

Good, only needed to beat it into you