Question about Future of PR.

[bondsan]

what is the future of PR ? easy.....

they win the best mod comp (hands down easy win) with each patch there comes more and more players until we have a force that can stroll over to EA and wipe the floor with their entire army of karkand whores.
at that point dice will realise what a mistake they made and sack all of their staff in favour of their new gods BSS who all get 150% pay increase and a tony blair style retirement plan

[IAJTHOMAS]

Do you really think EA would take legal action over a pretty much dead game (vBF2)?

Without a shadow of a doubt, yes.

[eggman]

There's a lot more to tactical gaming than fast ropes

There is a LOT of great games coming out this year:
OFP 2
ArmA 2
BF:BC 2

But it's unclear what the multi player capabilities will be...

ArmA 2 is saying > 50. They used to say >100 for ArmA. I understand some people have played in >100 servers with ArmA, but even at 40 people I found the lag unplayable (jerking about is totally unacceptable). I tried a few different ArmA 1 servers loaded to ~40 people or more and always had issues with lag.

OFP 2 is saying 24 iirc (might be 32).

BF:BC 2 has a console pedigree and is the flagship BF title being released to PCs this year. So I would expect 64p, be VERY surprised if they support 128 and not at all surprised if they only support 32p.

BF:BC2 is NOT BF3 and that title is unannounced and I would say it's future is uncertain.

Combined Arms realism requires large maps because the weapon systems are so deadly and are designed to operate at long ranges. So when you add in large maps, you need more than 64 players. Kashan is a great map imo, but always felt like it was lacking 40 players. But those sort of goals are outside of the scope of many of the games coming out. The "arcade" modeling of the weapon systems doesn't really require the same considerations for scale. ArmA certainly tries, but one of my biggest criticisms of ArmA is that it's not a great single player game and not a great multiplayer game... and I think they are still trying to make it both.

Obviously Garage Games and the Torque engines are not going to look like OFP 2 or even ArmA 2. But Torque 3D (the next generation of Torque engines) is making a huge effort to update the visual capabilities. They *can* look very decent, check this TGEA 1.8 test video:
"Gears of Torque" TGEA Video on Vimeo

But what we're talking about as an Indie game is recognizing the trade offs in some areas for benefits in others.. obviously metered by budgetary and resource constraints. People still play PR in pretty large numbers (usually larger than ArmA, Frontlines, ET:QW). The graphics in PR / BF2 are getting pretty dated, but the game play is the main draw. If people want superb graphics there are other alternatives (and as noted some great ones coming this year). But those superb graphics will have concessions to mainstream appeal because of the cost of developing the titles.

We're not complete morons... I currently manage a multi year software project that's about the same budget as the top end of AAA game titles. If we can prove that we can get 130+ players, decent visuals, long view ranges, large maps, good object count, and good foliage coverage... well... if we can pass a few tests there (which would be pretty publicly obvious because we'd be asking for community participation) then we will take the next step in evaluating the feasibility of pursuing an indie game.

Some folks might have delusions that they can work on a PR indie game as a full time job, but I don't see that being realistic. It would be more like translating modding into a hobby that might actually pay a little bit of money. We'd need to find a couple / few C++ coders who are fanatical tactical gamers who would want to work in those circumstances. We have managed to find other disciplines that are as good or better than gaming industry professionals (mapping, modeling, texture, sound, etc). So hopefully we can find some C++ coders in the same way.. we've never tried.. but we have been successful at attracting most of the other talent we've needed.

In 1999 the TGEA engine supported >100 players in Tribes matches and their netcode is considered some of the best in the industry. That's a decent start, and we'd check against some critical metrics before we'd invest too much time and energy into it.

egg

[fuzzhead]

DICE confirms five Battlefield titles in development // News

They've announced 4 so far....any guesses what the other one might be?

Heres the quote:

EA announced at the start of the year its first entry in the free-to-play market would be Battlefield Heroes, and the publisher is set to release Battlefield: Bad Company for home consoles this Friday.

But the team is also at work on three other games based on the series, including a traditional core game aimed at consoles, and a new collaboration with Neowiz specifically for the Korean market.

So heres the 5 titles:

1. Battlefield Bad Company 1
2. Battlefield Heroes
3. Battlefield 1943
4. Battlefield Bad Company 2
5. Battlefield (Neowiz produced Korean Game)

No BF3 on that list I think... they have enough on their plate, I sincerely doubt if BC2 is being developed for PC that they would be contemplating a 2nd AAA title for the PC in the same time frame.

Do you seriously think that a games company (and an EA games company at that) will not release a sequel to one of the most successful games ever?

This isnt the same DICE that developed and created BF2. That DICE is long gone I think. I wouldnt hold your breath for a BF3 anyways, all signs are pointing to it's non-existence. The PR team are definitely not holding out for it, afaik no one has been contacted at any point by EA or DICE about any hints of mod support for any future titles.

[NaZar3TH]

dunia engine kthxbye?

dunno, i think that would be the easiest thing to make a tactical realism mod off of, but thats jus me.

and i want to have my 50$ investment in Far Cry 2 made worthwhile

[TurnCoat]

Is Battlefield 1943 а Frostbite engine game?

[eggman]

BF43 is frostbite, downloadable over XBLA.

BF:BC2 is frostbite, traditional console / PC DVD sales medium.

As Fuzz says... don't count on a "BF3". I'd say BF:BC2 is the next PC installment in the BF franchise, likely followed by some sort of expansion pack(s).

Dunia is a very capable engine, but this far only a map editor has been released and no official mod support. Don't really want to head down that road again...

[space]

I guess what my point is, what will TGEA engine offer over BF2 engine. Yes the short clip you posted looks nice, but look around on the garagegames forum egg - I know youve posted some questions on there, but have a look around on some of the threads - the capabilities that they claim of engine do not match up to reality - a quick look at ANY of the games released on TGEA proves that. Maybe you could have 100 players, but then you wouldnt be able to have any trees or statics, and it would still be very buggy. Theres a very good reason that no other company has brought out a game with similar capabilties to BF2, and thats because its seriosuly hard to implement all the different elements and do it well. I hear what you say about the teamwork and game play being more important than graphics, but imo, people would just play BF2 PR, rather than step back for no conceivable benefit.

Your right the PR community does do a better job gaming industry professionals sometimes, but thats because they are working for free, and are willing to spend massive amount of time, which wouldn't even be slightly commercially viable. In most cases its not that the PR modders are better than professionals - its a case of them having more time. PR is a community based project and always has been, and any move to make it commercial would be disastrous imo

Anyway - Im sorry to sound so negative, Dont hold it against me - Its just my very strongly held opinion

PS Maybe your right fuzz, but BFBC1 was out a couple of days after that announcement, so it was hardly in development then. Also the neowiz battlefield game has been cancelled I think - it was announced 2 years ago and nothing has been heard since. Neowiz had a sucessful FPS game shortly after that annoucement, and it looks like theyre working on a followup without DICE :

Worlds In Motion - Neowiz Licenses Vision Engine 7 For Online Shooter

[TurnCoat]

BF43 is frostbite...

I remember Realism mod for BF42. Hmmm... BF43+PR2, why not... Of course if BF43 will be modable.

[space]

I remember Realism mod for BF42. Hmmm... BF43+PR2, why not... Of course if BF43 will be modable.

BF1943 will be a arcade minigame, and it will be download only - theres no way theyll release the FrostED (which you need for modding) for BF1943 - it might come out for BFBC2 though.

[eggman]

Well space, the thing is that .. as I said .. we're not morons. We aren't about to develop a 38 player, squadless, voipless version of PR as an indie game. Nor would we develop a version of PR that had final goals of behaving exactly like PR on BF2.

We'd do some specific tests around specific objectives and, if we get close enough to acceptable results, throw some caution to the wind and hope that engine upgrades and continued optomisation would keep any compromises acceptable. But the benefits would be that we could make the game we and the community want without limitations of a closed source engine the game sits on top of.

You have an assumption that 100 players means no foliage (and you have no facts to support that). You have an assumption that it would be buggy (most of the serious bugs in PR are either vBF2 bugs or anomalies as a result of the crazy work arounds we've done to deal with engine limitations).

You have an assumption that the reason BF2 is not cloned is because it's too hard. The reality is that it's because it's a lot more profitable to release games to consoles and that environment is based on a peer to peer multiplayer model (which precludes large scale multiplayer). That's not an assumption. I live in Vancouver near one of EA's largest studios and a friend is a senior exec there.. they are going to cull their SKUs by 40% and PC gaming is not high on their priority list.. the development costs are the same as a AAA console title and the market is shrinking.

And also I would never think PR as an indie game could be commercially profitable. I think about the only chance PR as an Indie game would have a chance of being successful is because it would not pretend to be commercially viable. It would be about making the best game possible and, at best, maybe seeing that hobby translate into a few thousand dollars a year and maybe some strong credibility for folks wanting to move into the gaming industry (when the economy picks up again in the next few years). But it would mostly be about the same goals as the PR mod - making the best game we can.

Consoles are dominating the gaming industry and I think good multiplayer tactical gaming is going to suffer, especially in the coming years of ruthless cost savings by studios. I am of the view that the only way a really, really good large scale multiplayer tactical game is going to get made is if it IS free from commercial requirements.

I don't disagree with some of what you say as valid view points, but your fundamental premise is that we're somehow too stupid to have thought of these things ourselves; or that everything you see in PR on BF2 today represents the extent of the team's vision for what we'd like to see possible in tactical gaming; or that large scale multiplayer tactical gaming is such a lucrative market that there's tons of publishers servicing the market.

[space]

I dont think you guys are morons at all - in fact quite the opposite, so sorry if you think that.

I just cant see any major benefits, but I can see major drawbacks, that's all. There's loads of things I didnt mention, like the terrible sound on TGEA - I cant see that changing anytime soon as things like an EAX licensing agreement are just not going to happen. Also what about things like the VOIP system and things like that - all these things are handed on a plate at the moment, but would be a massive job to do yourselves. Im not an expert on TGEA by any means, but from what Ive seen and read, its best suited to making minigames at the most - it doesn't seem to be suited to PR at all. I understand that theres loads of workarounds to make PR work with BF2, but the fact is that they have been done now, and it works pretty well. There isnt really a massive amount of stuff missing from PR as it is now, so it seems crazy to move to an engine which isnt as good.

Garagegames sales patter for TGEA may tick all the boxes for PR, but the fact is that the features dont all work together at once, and many of them dont seem to work very well on their own even, so it will be a step backwards from what weve got now. Was the PR team thinking of using TGEA, before you got a chance to win it for free? (saving a $300 licence)

[eggman]

Sound = FMOD (as used in Call of Duty 4, etc). Free for indies (can be done in 6 to 12 weeks).
VOIP = Mumble integrated into the game (I don't see this as being too hard)

TGEA uses the freely available and commonly used OpenAL libraries for sound. I am not sure what experience you have working with TGE/TGEA's sound capabilities to make that judgment. If it proved unworkable, as noted we'd incorporate a AAA quality sound library (or some other solution).

But things like Sound quality are solved after the basic requirements/capabilities are validated (and I am not dismissing Sound, I'm a huge fan of good sound in games.. I'm just saying that it's one of those things that would not prevent us from making a game decision because there ARE solutions for it).

Also one thing to keep in mind is that with today's engines and video cards a huge aspect of visual quality is dictated by artists, not by the engine (within reason). Most of the art I have seen in TGEA is not at the level I think it should be to achieve the kind of visuals people want to see.

On the one hand you say you don't think we're morons, but on the other you ask if saving $300 is our main criteria for evaluating an engine for an indie game? The $300 license isn't really relevant to choosing an engine. The main issue is that the other alternatives we are aware of are not as "complete" as it relates to PR's requirements. There are engines like Unity or C4, but these are not complete engines. They would require that we integrate libraries across a variety of areas just to meet our basic requirements.

Again....... I've worked on products from ideation to profitability..... we'll cross some specific milestones that we will keep as absolutely simple to cross as we can. After each one we'll re-evaluate.

Of course there's some crazyness involved in looking to make a game the scope of Project Reality. But there was only slightly less crazyness in saying "we're a first time mod team and we're going to be the most played mod on BF2 and have eleventeen playable factions and have an unrelenting commitment to changing how people play online shooters, etc, etc".

But here we are

[space]

Just cos I disagree with you, doesnt mean I think youre a moron! I was just giving my opinion

This thread has a interesting bit about garagegames open ended EULA - a few people seem to think C4 is the better option:

Torque - GameDev.Net Discussion Forums

Im not a programmer or anything like that, but I have been in charge of managing software upgrades, and its usually done to bring about large benefits - maybe Im a moron, but I just dont see those benefits in this case.

My comment about the $300 was because all this talk seems to have come about, from the engine being the first prize in the moddb awards - I was just asking the question because I never heard anyone mention the TGEA engine on the forums before then, and it doesnt seem like the best way to pick an engine.

If the DEVs think its a good idea to move over to that engine, then good luck

If the DEVs think its a good idea to move over to some kind of commercial model for PR, then Im sorry but I think that is a terrible idea, and against the whole idea of a mod community

[CodeRedFox]

To spacemanc and others, we have the full dev team (and friends) always looking at other engines and other PR opportunities. Your all welcome to give your opinions but realize we are looking into EVERYTHING. We all see that the bf2 engine cant support us for ever. Unfortunately we don't share most of the research as its not relevant to you the player (testing, contacts, bugs, crashes, demos, etc). Allot of us have real world connections that allow us to dig a little deeper then the general public.

If you have something to add please let us know in this thread or the official one (Below). But keep your comments respectable and short as fighting over ideas doesn't help anyone.

[Ideas] PR Engine Ideas and Suggestions

[space]

Sorry CRF I didnt mean to discuss the future of PR in this thread in this section. Ill PM egg instead as I found it quite interesting, and I didnt consider us to be fighting.

[CodeRedFox]

Yeah "fighting" might not b e the best wording. Anyways try the other thread as its been quite interesting. the thread should be visible again as it got buried a few weeks ago.

[Ideas] PR Future Engine Ideas and Suggestions

[eggman]

I don't really think there's any "fighting" going on here CRF; thanks anyways but I don't need the moderation

There's some useful discussion in this thread.... it really doesn't matter if it gets cluttered here and there... it's not like we're going to reference this back in 8 months or anything... and I don't feel like moving these posts into the other thread.

@ space: The problem with what you are presenting is you've done some very surface level research and developed opinion based on that. There's a LOT to dig into when looking for a cheap solution to these problems.

The thread you referenced is about TGE, not about TGEA. Garage Games put a huge effort into re-factoring TGEA to clean up some of the common complaints. One of the biggest issues was around documentation. Personally I think it's still a bit of a problem, but by all accounts they have made huge strides in improving the docs. It takes quite a bit of research to start to figure out what the issues really are with the Torque products.

The most encouraging thing I've seen is the open source stuff that is VERY highly evolved that would be useful (mumble, bulletphysics, etc). But even more interesting is the number of AAA libraries that are free for Indie usage. Stuff like Havok physics, FMod sound and others are in AAA titles, but they have things like $100 indie licenses.

wrt the "terrible idea" around a commercial model for PR... well.. nobody's gonna get rich (or even make much money) but if PR came out with a decent indie game... and the current community didn't toss $20 at it... I guess THAT represents what I see as totally against a mod community... If you combine 4 years of releases of PR and let's say 4 years of releases of a PR2.... that works out to less than $3 per year...

[General Dragosh]

eggman;930484'I don't really think there's any "fighting" going on here CRF; thanks anyways but I don't need the moderation

There's some useful discussion in this thread.... it really doesn't matter if it gets cluttered here and there... it's not like we're going to reference this back in 8 months or anything... and I don't feel like moving these posts into the other thread.

@ space: The problem with what you are presenting is you've done some very surface level research and developed opinion based on that. There's a LOT to dig into when looking for a cheap solution to these problems.

The thread you referenced is about TGE, not about TGEA. Garage Games put a huge effort into re-factoring TGEA to clean up some of the common complaints. One of the biggest issues was around documentation. Personally I think it's still a bit of a problem, but by all accounts they have made huge strides in improving the docs. It takes quite a bit of research to start to figure out what the issues really are with the Torque products.

The most encouraging thing I've seen is the open source stuff that is VERY highly evolved that would be useful (mumble, bulletphysics, etc). But even more interesting is the number of AAA libraries that are free for Indie usage. Stuff like Havok physics, FMod sound and others are in AAA titles, but they have things like $100 indie licenses.

wrt the "terrible idea" around a commercial model for PR... well.. nobody's gonna get rich (or even make much money) but if PR came out with a decent indie game... and the current community didn't toss $20 at it... I guess THAT represents what I see as totally against a mod community... If you combine 4 years of releases of PR and let's say 4 years of releases of a PR2.... that works out to less than $3 per year...

Eggman ure like and freeking old library from the future

[space]

I seriously think that the FrostED will be coming out on the PC, even if its for BFBC2 rather than BF3, which means it could be later this year.
Despite the bitching and the bugs and all the other ****, BF2 has served PR very well IMO (though undoubtably DICE could have given far more support, very easily)

I agree that PR cannot stay on BF2 engine much longer, but I think that any work/decisions on new engines, should be held off for a little while to see what happens.
Even though there will be compromises with the FrostED, it will also be the best platform for PR, and Im sure DICE will have learnt at least one or two things from the modding situation with BFED. Bear in mind that the BFED was more or less built for FPS, but the FrostED, is made for a much wider range of games, so just from that aspect it will be alot more moddable.

Whats your opinion of the chances of BF3 being a MMO FPS, and subscription based?
All the games developers are eyeing Blizzards profits and hoping to replicate their business model.
The recent announcements from DICE, seem to be going down the DLC and micro transaction route, so maybe they are the practice runs in their game plan.