ACOG and Scope Improvement PLEASE

[Teriander]

One thing about this game that really bothers me is the accuracy of the scoped weapons.
Before I go into detail I should mention that I own an ACOG. TA-31 (x4 zoom) model to be exact. And I have extensive use with it in desert terrain and 400m range targets.

In the real world when your ACOG is calibrated, your shot is going exactly where the red dot is. Period. At 200m you can place 30 rounds in a 6in diameter hole. Notice I said "you" because anyone can do it with an ACOG.

In Project Reality this is NOT the case. In project reality I have fired at targets with the ACOG(US Squad Leader's weapon) and have missed by feet! Not by Inches. For example, I saw a guy who was standing and about 80m away from me. I took a knee, I put my ACOG's red dot in center mass. Fired, and a puff of smoke about 4 feet to his right on the wall indicated that I missed him by 4 feet. Situations like this is total BS and very frustrating. Why? Because I know in the real world if my red dot is on a target when I pull the trigger, its getting hit. If not hit, no more than 4 inches from it. Especially less than 100m.

Now I know what your thinking, It can't be as accurate as it is in the real world for balance reasons right? Well this is Project Reality, not Project Balance. If you want the user to miss when his target is in the crosshairs of an ACOG at less than 400m, then you need to take away the ACOG. Or give the enemy an equal accurate scope. Because an ACOG user with an x4 scope can't miss, unless his scope is damaged or uncalibrated.

It's really annoying to lose in a Project Reality gun fight when you have an ACOG, and your enemy has Iron Sights, and he's out shooting you because you're missing. Even though you have a red dot on his face.... Total BS.

---Answered Comments on Post #12

[cyberzomby]

I probably see where you made the mistake:
Spotted enemy, kneeled, sighted in, fired.

It should go like this
Spotted enemy, kneeled, sighted in, settle time, fired. Its only 80 meters but wait a second and your shots goes in.

Just need to wait a few seconds for long range shots. Wat usually works in close ranges is first pop a few shots of to him. Surpress him. And than wait for the deviation and fire an accurate shot.

[Zi8]

Do a test since you have the right equipment:

Run/sprint a few miles. Wear a helmet and heavy backpack. After that, look how quickly and accurately you can hit your targets when you try to quickly go to prone/crouch. Shooting stationary targets on a sunny sunday afternoon at shooting range is a quite different thing compared to real life engagements

[Sights]

Now I know what your thinking, It can't be as accurate as it is in the real world for balance reasons right? Well this is Project Reality, not Project Balance. If you want the user to miss when his target is in the crosshairs of an ACOG at less than 400m, then you need to take away the ACOG. Or give the enemy an equal accurate scope. Because an ACOG user with an x4 scope can't miss, unless his scope is damaged or uncalibrated.

Hey, if you want to play a game where you're guaranteed pretty much certain death after a few minutes of play, go right ahead, but the fact of the matter is that very few would play such a game. Without balance of this sort, the mod would fall apart because it would be, for all intents and purposes, unplayable.

Also, another reason crosshairs are not dead-on accurate is because the BF2 engine can't replicate real-world conditions such as sway, which I'm sure you would know factor in to real-world weapons firing. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that in real combat conditions, not every shot fired by someone is going to hit their target, even when aiming directly at them. That stuff is for the firing range.

If you would make such a change as this, you would essentially be turning every soldier on the PR battlefield into an uber-elite supersolider who never misses a shot. I'm sure you would agree that that would not be very realistic, and so very, very unsuitable Project Reality.

[Arnoldio]

I believe the gun is accurate, wait 6 secs and then shoot while crouch..you shouldn't have so much problem hitting the spot you're aiming for. This deviation is here for the sake of balance and compensation because there is no weapon sway.

[Spec]

You're misunderstanding what the deviation is meant to simulate.

It's not the weapon's inaccuracy, it is user error that is simulated here. So while you got the crosshair right on the target, and the weapon would have no problem hitting that target, this is simply an engine problem - your scope is always 100% still, without any movement. In real life, you couldnt hold the weapon that motionless, especially not in a combat environment, when you're exhausted and scared.

Sadly BF2 can't have weapon sway. The weapon is always 100% still, only the bullets themselves are off target. This is the only way the dev's could get it to work.

Up to the version 0.61, the weapons were indeed dead accurate. But to improve gameplay, the dev's changed that. They tweaked the deviation again and again. It was huge in 0.7, similiar to now in 0.75, bigger again in 0.8 and now... well, you know it.

It is also made to discourage unrealistic behaviour that is often seen in games. Shooting while moving around in circles, jumping, falling etc for example. That was very possible before deviation (and several BF2 patches) came.

[fubar++]

I kind of second the OP but can also understand the need for artificial balancing. There never will be compromise to satisfy all. But hence the deviation is representing random factors why not give the player information about those conditions. As I feel it the actual problem isn't the deviation itself, problem is that you can't see or feel it in any means. But because order to correct that it would mean return of the crosshairs, it must be out of the question... or would it, really?

[Spartan0189]

I think the gun is fine... I like it because it gives more zoom then the Red Dot sight

[Scot]

Hehe, I don't think you were here for 0.8 if your complaining about deviation now

It's been seriously improved now, and I feel works very well now, just wait like 1-2 seconds before firing, you should hit spot on most times

[UncleSmek]

Hehe, I don't think you were here for 0.8 if your complaining about deviation now

It's been seriously improved now, and I feel works very well now, just wait like 1-2 seconds before firing, you should hit spot on most times

Yup, was giong to say almost the same thing Btw Welcome to the forums.

[WeB-18Bravo]

Teriander,

This thread resembles quite exactly the one I posted some weeks ago. So I actually understand what your problem is.

The dev's told what Spec_Operator told you, and that's right.

As fubar++ is also right to say that there is no mean to know when you can shoot with full accuracy (with the sniper rifle you can pressing 3, though).
You will often notice that when you see an enemy (let's say you both go to prone and start aiming through your scopes), if the guy is a bit stressed, he will fire and miss, whereas if you keep calm, take your time to wait 1 sec, you will hit him.

But the other thing that stresses this "issue" is that non-scoped weapons are hell faster to stabilize, and that's not a good thing I think, because making the gun sit straight ain't no easier with non-scoped weapons that with scoped ones. This issue is particularly seen in insurgency game mode. In CQC, AKs are a lot better than M-4s or M-16s. The insurgent rushing in full auto is dead more accurate than you (I know it, trust me). I maybe think of using a thing like Fraps to record some games to make it easier to understand what I'm talking of.

And that's why I always grab an insurgent kit when I kill one.

[Teriander]

(Forget this post, I completely missed Spec_Operator's post which pretty much sums this up, sorry)

Ok, I've read all your replies, and I think I have a solution, that is if its possible in the game engine.

To start, one of you suggested I sprint, carry a rucksack, helm, etc., quickly go prone and try to fire at a stationary target to see how accurate my aim is. Well I have two things to comment on this:
1. I have done this and you're correct that my accuracy will be lower, MUCH lower.
2. What you're failing to realize is that at any given time when I pull the trigger and the red dot is on the target, the target is getting hit. The HARD part in a situation like this, is getting the red dot on the target. Your hands are shaking because you just finished running, you're out of breath, Hell even your head may move a little because your heart is pounding so hard. So that little red dot is moving EVERYWHERE but on your target.

Here is where my suggestion comes into play. When a player is scoped in while standing or with low stamina, have the scope sort of moving in random directions? The lower your Stamina the more it moves? That's basically what you're doing in the real world, fighting the slight changes in direction your hands and arms are moving your weapon in. Its almost like you can't control it and dont know which way that little dot is going to go to next. I hope this makes sense....

And Scot, no I wasn't around for 0.8 wish I was though. As for waiting 2 secs before shooting. Thats a new concept for me, I'll have to get used to it.


---- I just thought about it. Stop me if Im wrong, but I think Call of Duty 4 used this concept. When using the sniper scope you're aim is moving all over the place, you have to hold your breath to aim more accurately. This is what Im talking about, and I think this works well when it comes to scope realism.

[supahpingi]

But afaik,weapon swinging is not possible with the engine,hence the deviation system
AMIRRITE?

[hiberNative]

forgotten hope 2 has sway, but i think it's only visual (you can shoot and hit everything in the center of the screen anyway).
a tip is that if you don't want to wait 3-4 seconds before firing in pr, supress him until the rounds go on target.

[nedlands1]

But the other thing that stresses this "issue" is that non-scoped weapons are hell faster to stabilize, and that's not a good thing I think, because making the gun sit straight ain't no easier with non-scoped weapons that with scoped ones. This issue is particularly seen in insurgency game mode. In CQC, AKs are a lot better than M-4s or M-16s. The insurgent rushing in full auto is dead more accurate than you (I know it, trust me). I maybe think of using a thing like Fraps to record some games to make it easier to understand what I'm talking of.

Not true. The scoped variants of weapons have exactly the same deviation and recoil effects. In fact, all assault rifles and battle rifles have the same deviation. The real difference, in handling between the unscoped and scoped variants (excluding the aimpoints), is the time it takes to sight in. In general the scoped rifles take just under double to time to do so.

Here is where my suggestion comes into play. When a player is scoped in while standing or with low stamina, have the scope sort of moving in random directions? The lower your Stamina the more it moves? That's basically what you're doing in the real world, fighting the slight changes in direction your hands and arms are moving your weapon in. Its almost like you can't control it and dont know which way that little dot is going to go to next. I hope this makes sense...

Sadly it's not possible. However it is possible in Battlefield 2142 which is based on BF2.

[McBumLuv]

Sadly it's not possible. However it is possible in Battlefield 2142 which is based on BF2.

That's not a hint, is it?

[Tirak]

So is this thread about deviation or making the ACOG look cooler?

[Conman51]

the deviation is there for a good reason...to make fire fights last...do you know how boring it would be if every gun was laser accurate!?!??! go play call of duty 4...thats laser accuracy..i cant play that..its just spawn take a couple steps and die....i like the deviation although it is true in real life you can just put the sights on target and fire...it just doesnt work out in video games

BUT i think people said before that the sight needs to be changed..like it needs a bar coming out from each side..like in COD4

[McBumLuv]

Well, it's not about "laser accuracy" per se, it's about trying to simulate the time needed to get into a good firing position, to get steady, stop swaying, and sight in on your target in an engine that can't handle that stuff.

Though, as for appearances, why are the Acog cross hairs so big? I thought they were much, much smaller than in pr, no?

[gazzthompson]

the deviation is there for a good reason...to make fire fights last...do you know how boring it would be if every gun was laser accurate!?!??! go play call of duty 4...thats laser accuracy..i cant play that..its just spawn take a couple steps and die....i like the deviation although it is true in real life you can just put the sights on target and fire...it just doesnt work out in video games

BUT i think people said before that the sight needs to be changed..like it needs a bar coming out from each side..like in COD4

i think your missing the point. he is misunderstanding the concept of deviation because of a lack of knowledge of the bf2 engine (why have deviation when you can have weapon sway) which is understandable. and his comment about weapon sway and agreement with the hole running thing shows he knows the need for not having lazer accuracy .

Teriander: weapon sway is not possible with bf2 engine , hence the deviation