AAS is bad.

[Neuromante]

I know many of you may disagree, but I find AAS absolutely awful, compared to what we could make PR play out.


Why do I find it that bad? Simple:

1) Spawnkilling. You all know what I am talking about. You wait 20+ seconds just to pop out in front of a bad guy laying down suppressive fire with his RPK. Highly frustrating, specially since there's nothing you can do about it.

2) Lack of planning. You can't really "plan", since you are forced to take flags in a certain order. I know that IRL objectives have to be secured in order, but letting to the players the ability to decide the most appropriate order would be better for gameplay, and give commanders a real purpose.

3) Lack of teamwork. Specially on pubs, people tend to rush the next flag and little more. This even rewards them with points by flag captures.

4) People "abusing" kits. The perfect example of this is Karkand 1, and generally urban maps with lots of infantry. When the fight reaches the last MEC flag, everyone knows there will be very little chance to push the attacking team back, and no option to capture the now undefended flags, and that the attacking force will mainly be made of infantry (entirely while on all-infantry servers). So everyone grabs a sniper rifle. Bad and repetitive for gameplay, looks silly and is totally unrealistic. Many other maps got similar problems. Trying to set class limits just to address this issue is like banning wood just because it may catch fire. I can already see people teamkilling for kits, people with the faster-loading PCs grabbing all the most wanted (powerful) kits and leaving the weaker to those with less performing machines (me included). There shouldn't be kits that are better than others, they should just be different, requiring a good mix of them to success in every squad, on every situation.


I'm not saying we should go back to the normal flag mode, it's even worse. I'm suggesting that we should develop something different, maybe similar to the "Xtraction" new gamemode. I just gave it a try, and found it awesome. What made it so fun? The fact that people have to advance together through the whole map, constantly watching for threats instead of spawning where the fight is going and instantly knowing where the enemy is. It's actually the only gamemode that gets the best teamwork and quite accurately portrays reality.

[Malik]

I see where you're coming from, I can definitely see a new game idea coming from these ideas. At the moment, the problem is everyone's forced to advance in order, a better solution would be to make advancing in order the best option so people can do it if they want or take the more difficult, nonetheless rewarding, option of taking other command posts.

I'm thinking a game mode where there are two spawn points per team. They both spawn on opposite sides of the map and fight for control points on he map. The control points don't offer you the chance to spawn there, they offer you new equipment. For you to advance in the battle, you need to capture strategic locations to give you a better foothold on the battlefield. For example, an abandoned artillery station could be capture, repaired and used by the team that holds it. A small runway could be captured to give a team air support. Buildings placed in strategic locations could be captured to give teams better cover of important choke points. All the while, teams are still spawning from the main bases, but each successive command point capture adds spawning vehicles to the main bases, or decreases spawning timers.

The pros? Teams make their own battlefields. They're not forced to fight between two command points, they have to fight between two command points to keep the enemy away from their assets. Teamwork is valued even more as players are going to have to walk a long, long way if they get killed as lone wolves. Battles are a lot more intense and dynamic as they're made by your team, not by those spamming messages in the top corner.

Squad leader spawning will need to be tweaked. How about you can spawn off your squad leader, if he's in a reasonable radius of a friendly command point? Squad leaders must move to friendly command points to spawn their squad mates, but if an enemy is in that radius it becomes void (if you see some guys at a flag, you kill them, you don't get backup appearing from nowhere).

Sounds like 'Realism Mode' except it'd work.

[weidel]

Damn, thats the best idea gameplay wise that I have heard on these forums. Kudos to Malik for this.

I guess one of your main problems with the spawn-on-SL anywhere is spawnraping, but I could be wrong. To avoid spawnraping, place multiple spawns in the general spawn area for each team, or make the spawn area offlimit for the other team, the same way as the extraction zone is offlimit for the ambushing team in extraction game-mode.

Then, I think I suggested it before, make SL's (and SL's only) able to spawn on the commander. That would make him an absolute center-piece in achieving victory in the right location and directing the effort of many squads.

Otherwise....What a brilliant idea, lets implement this ASAP and lay AAS to rest.

[Rhino]

I guess one of your main problems with the spawn-on-SL anywhere is spawnraping, but I could be wrong. To avoid spawnraping, place multiple spawns in the general spawn area for each team, or make the spawn area offlimit for the other team, the same way as the extraction zone is offlimit for the ambushing team in extraction game-mode.

ye was very lucky i came up with that idea or we would see 32 MEC guys walk over the the USMC main spawn and rape the hell out of the SUV, or you would see them laying mines and C4 arround the end flag

[Malik]

I just played that map, Road to (something, I forgot), and it's got the best way to stop spawnraping. Each team starts with two bases, and the spawns for those bases are a considerable distance from the actual flags. This means, if it's being attacked, you need to run a fair way to get to the flag cap area. Another countermeasure is that the center command point doesn't even have a spawn area. You need to capture it to attack the enemy's base, but you can't spawn there. Just as well too, that centre area is a constant battle.

And yeah, thanks for praising my idea. Just hope the devs take it seriously.

[Neuromante]

Good ideas Malik. You guys should just check the first linky in my sig btw. Specially the number 1 and number 7 paragraphs.

[Lucractius]

ive had ideas like that before, i think that separating the spawning and controling aspects of the battlefield usualy leads to good results.

[Malik]

Hmm, I've been thinking about objectives for this type of game. For a start, it'll involve a lot more command points than are on standard maps, some will be actual team assets, some may be vehicle spawn locations, some will simply be houses with machine guns placed strategically, but do we really want ticket bleed? I think a simple fixed "resources" count for each team would work well. Each team has X resources, and everytime someone dies (not wounded, properly finished off) the counter goes down. The priority system used by the Hit and Worth point system would probably apply for resources. Higher priority (or in this case exensive) units would take away more resouces, so valuing them would be a must. When you team runs out of resources, certain objects can no longer spawn. Then, it's a case of finishing off the survivors, completely clearing the battlefield and rightfully, and truly, claiming the area of enemies.

Naturally, people will see the idea of having stragglers a problem, but this is solved by the whole assets system. Yes, UAV and satellite scans will probably be included, but they won't be so exploitable as before. UAVs will be costly to your resources and will be permanent, until they're destroyed (good ol' 1.2) and they'll only be obtainable if you're in command of a certain asset on the Battlefield. Useful if you're hunting down the survivors. Taking control of the TV station on Sharqi really will be useful, a system making that radar mast do something could be implemented. Because of the huge array of tactical positions put in maps, tactics will be everything. Do you rush for the high ground? Do you attack the UAV station? Do you take the tank spawn areas or form a perimeter around your land?

Please, please implement these ideas, I'm excited just thinking about it.

[Solitas]

Some innovative ideas Malik, though I can't see them being implemented in the near future (pre version 1.0).
With that in mind what I suggets is a compromise, one that could be accepted for the time being or for the long term, or indeed not at all.

What I propose is remove or alter the AAS, adding restrictions to flag capture. To be blunt, make it so flags (other than the next in the sequence) require at least 3 troops and a considerable longer amount of time (than a normal flag) to capture.

This way, a flag that is behind enemy lines can be captured but due to the long time it takes to do so, the capturing troops are at greater risk.
Even if the attacking troops are unssuccesful in capping the flag they will at least divert enemy forces away from the front, releiving pressure on the main bulk of the teams attacking force.

[TweedleDee]

aas only makes sense to me when capture points are in a straight line.... this way aas acts like a "supply line" where troops and supplys are brought up the imaginary supply line that aas makes.

zig zagging around the map, attacking a flag that is 2X further away than a nearby one and trying to get people to goto the right flag, which is on the other side of the map, is very tiresome and makes no common sense.

[Neuromante]

So? Any word from the devs? Could this be implemented, even as an alternative gamemode? Please.

For more ideas see here: http://realitymod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4539

[eggman]

You guys are straying pretty far outside of the possiblities of the BF2 engine, which is a concern. Or you are venturing into areas where every map needs to be redesigned to accomodate. Both are concerning given we have limited resrouces and a limited attention span from the player base.

We've only *just* begun to experiment with new game modes, there will be improvements to the new ones and variations on those as well as other new game modes.

The 4 things in your initial post in this thread...
Spawnkilling
Lack of Planning
Lack of Teamwork
Abusing Kits
...are not exclusive flaws to AAS. If anything AAS makes it much harder to capture CPs so you need MORE of the above, not less.

AAS is not going away. Conquest will not be our default game mode. We will be adding new game modes as we take the learnings from the ones we just released. We will make improvements to all the game modes, including AAS, but I don't think you'll see us putting ourselves in a position where we have 4 maps that our default game mode can be played on.

egg

[trogdor1289]

I would like to still see AAS in game as it makes for good defense orientaed gameplay for defending team and vice versa for the other team i would like to see an option whereby the server admin can make two flags be able to capped first for example on karkand have hotel and square be cappable at the same time to give the USMC a fairer chance at winning. Although having said that their have been a few times when my US team has crushed the MEC at karkand.

[Malik]

I'm certain what I mentioned would be perfectly plausible inside the BF2 engine, as it combines features from other game modes. The idea of having different objects worth different ticket values is already in place on Extraction (the SUV loses 15 tickets on destruction). I'm pretty sure ticket bleed can be turned off. Flags without spawns are easily implemented as proven in the Road to Nyongai (or whatever it's called). I can imagine having squad leaders only being able to spawn in a flag radius is simple, there's already a way to limit their spawn on certain health values, just change it so they can't spawn outside certain areas as well. Having certain flags house certain spawnable items is, once again possible. I'm not sure about Commander assets, but the coders have already proved they can do a lot, and I don't see why it'd be so hard.

I'm not saying it'll replace AAS or conquest, but a more realistic playing mode where armies actually have to harness areas of the Battlefield to win victory, making use of its resources and terrain is a really smart idea. Turning up the 'Resource' counter could make for some very long, tactical battles, almost in the style of an MMO. You don't just fight endlessly for flags, you have to carefully plan your actions and judge your attacks based on the enemy's moves and positions. It's not everyone moving from flag to flag, it's everyone working together, listening to the commander and capturing strategic locations, carefully using vehicles and assets to the advantage of the team. Yes, I know it's something that's going to take work and I know the dev team are pretty much tied on the ideas they already have at the moment, but for the future I think it's a very plausible idea.

[Neuromante]

eggman']You guys are straying pretty far outside of the possiblities of the BF2 engine, which is a concern. Or you are venturing into areas where every map needs to be redesigned to accomodate. Both are concerning given we have limited resrouces and a limited attention span from the player base.

I understand that PR fills kind of a niche in the wanting of the BF2 player base, but what we are asking for would neither need huge coding efforts or complete map re-designing. Basically any map would fit the gamemode we have in mind, you'd just have to remove the flag respawn and tweak the respawn times of players and vehicles. Maps like Jabal Al Burj and Gulf of Oman 32 or 64 players would be just perfect, while the others would work just fine. Even though I have little experience with the BF engine it all sounds simple to me.

eggman']
The 4 things in your initial post in this thread...
Spawnkilling
Lack of Planning
Lack of Teamwork
Abusing Kits
...are not exclusive flaws to AAS. If anything AAS makes it much harder to capture CPs so you need MORE of the above, not less.

Ok, right, they are not exclusive flaws of AAS (even though I'd have some concern about particular kits becoming so abused) and AAS compared to the vanilla Conquest mode usually boosts planning and teamwork instead of lessening them. But we feel that our gamemode would solve many of the major problems that still persist, all of the above included, that PR suffers because of using the BF respawning system. Not only that, it would create a living and highly realistic battlefield, where it's up to the players to decide what to do, when to do it and how to do it, with realistic tools at their disposal to achieve their goals. Basically what the Battlefield series should have become but never did.
I'm not sure about you setting it as your default gamemode, or even including it in future releases, but I am sure it needs some testing. And I'm also sure that it would be quite revolutionary for the BF mods world, if it works.

[[BiM]Black7]

Solution and rethinking::

1. move the spawn from the flag, to an area with some cover.

2.you cant plan? or you dont know how to plan? well i say you can accualy plan you know where you going and you know your enemy. Send some one out a squad or a sniper to spot the enemy then when you have the info work out a tactic to get to your goal that includes flanking, using airstrike, cars and tanks easy peasy for sure..

3.Well about lack of team work the update have just been released and lots of new players and vbf2 players have joined that normal lack team play it will take some time befor the understand that team play is the way to go in PR if you want to win anything. Give the game some time and some of the worst noobs will leave and some of the lesser noobs will learn..

4. About the abusing kits well im all in for getting this fixed.. whats realy needed is a way to limit kits.. (we realy need this) per map or per squad.

Like if your not in a squad you can only play as Assult (we realy need a basic soldier class).

[ScotCop]

Malik if its easy to do then why dont you edit the maps and code then forward it on to the Devs for consideration once you have finished.

Its nice to get new innovative ideas but i think its better to correct and enhance what you already have before you start adding new game modes and making major changes that will lead to alot of time and effort, it looks to me like egg's main priority when it comes to game modes is tweaking and making the existing ones better on a limited time base.

[Neuromante]

Black7']Solution and rethinking::
1. move the spawn from the flag, to an area with some cover.

That would work for the exact time people need to find out where your respawn is. Then it would all turn into an endless spawncamp. Plus would make transport vehicles much less important than they should be, pretty much as they are right now (mobile gun platforms, usually).

Black7']
2.you cant plan? or you dont know how to plan? well i say you can accualy plan you know where you going and you know your enemy. Send some one out a squad or a sniper to spot the enemy then when you have the info work out a tactic to get to your goal that includes flanking, using airstrike, cars and tanks easy peasy for sure..

Sure, but it's not the only kind of planning I'd want to see in PR. I'd provide an example to help me explaining this one. You know Gulf of Oman, right? On the 32p version it gets three flags on the beach. While this would make it for a very intense and tactical assault with our concept (the boats could go take the left flag, the BlackHawk unloads on the central one and while they do this a single boat passes through the river and unloads an infantry squad near the urban area, then they quickly set up a defense line and cap the flag, driving away part of the enemy forces from the main battle and so helping the main US force gaining control of the remaining flags etc...) instead it turns into a "Everyone rush that flag", then "Everyone rush that other one" etc.
Our concept could take great advantage of the commanding abilities BF2 gives, helping co-ordinate big battles and offer a fun, enjoyable and intense near-to-simulation game experience, while the current gameplay doesn't or could do much better.

Black7']
3.Well about lack of team work the update have just been released and lots of new players and vbf2 players have joined that normal lack team play it will take some time befor the understand that team play is the way to go in PR if you want to win anything. Give the game some time and some of the worst noobs will leave and some of the lesser noobs will learn..

Again, my concept promotes a whole new, deeper kind of teamplay, much like the kind of teamplay you can see (at least that I could see) in the Xtraction mode.

Black7']
4. About the abusing kits well im all in for getting this fixed.. whats realy needed is a way to limit kits.. (we realy need this) per map or per squad.
.

NO we don't. One of the good things about the BF series is that it lets you choose to do basically what you feel to do at the moment. Like, if you want to be an AT soldier at any time you can do it. If you want to be a sniper and take down infantry with some well placed shot, you can do it! It would be just dumb to implement class limits instead of balance them out, taking away much of the freedom the BF games lets you and thus losing lots of players. And if the limiting was tied just to being in a squad, don't you already imagine people creating squads just to get the sniper?

[[BiM]Black7]

NO we don't. One of the good things about the BF series is that it lets you choose to do basically what you feel to do at the moment. Like, if you want to be an AT soldier at any time you can do it. If you want to be a sniper and take down infantry with some well placed shot, you can do it! It would be just dumb to implement class limits instead of balance them out, taking away much of the freedom the BF games lets you and thus losing lots of players. And if the limiting was tied just to being in a squad, don't you already imagine people creating squads just to get the sniper?

well this aint vbf2 mate and second war aint balanced..
this is realitimod for bf2 engine..

i rather see kit limits then give ppl the freedom to chose what ever class they want.
cuz atm there is like 80% ppl playing sniper, support, spec-ops. just becuz of the damage insted of forcing ppl to actuly take a on a role and do whats needed for the team/squad mates