Solution to the HAT-problem (guided AA-weapon)

[EmBra]

I didn't find a topic about this but I know it have been discussed in various random threads.

The HAT is being used as a guided AA-weapon and it is impossible for the helipilots (mostly attack-chopper pilots) to avoid this AntiTank-weapon effectively.

After being shot down with HAT a couple of times I decided to test it myself.

On 3 different rounds at three different times (days) I have had 100% success rate in killing the helicopter I was aiming for even if they were moving. Especially the Cobra on Muttra is easy to kill this way. The pilot get no warning that the missile is on the way and he must fly relatively smooth and slow for the gunner to hit anything, unfortunately this makes it an ideal target for the Heavy AntiTank AA-guided Weapon (HAT ) to be guided and kill the helicopter.

My idea to solve this problem and unrealistic use of the HAT weapon is this.

Make the HAT able to lock on to ground vehicles but let it take 10 seconds for it to lock on. Give it a faster deployment time to compensate for the 10 seconds locking time. Remove the ability for it to be guided manually.

Flame away!

[strima]

I do like this idea and it would reduced the amount of Heli taken out by HAT and slightly balance the RPG side of life. The only downfall I can foresee is of armour is cutting across open ground into cover but as you pointed out reduce the deployment time and the increased lock time should reduce snap shots.

Off topic slightly, not sure if Javelin has ever been used against an air target though!!!

[Eddie Baker]

There is only one HAT kit missile in game that is in real life SACLOS guided and that's the Eryx. The Predator/SRAW is just a holdover from BF2. And since the only fire-and-forget, man portable ATGM in service is the Javelin, I doubt this is going to happen in game. At least not for every faction.

Off topic slightly, not sure if Javelin has ever been used against an air target though!!!

The "Other Javelin (TM)" is an AA missile. Though the Javelin ATGM can theoretically be used against low and slow aircraft, I haven't seen any kind of test footage to that effect.

[nick20404]

That is why you don't hover your chopper in one place, its called shoot and scoot.

[Eddie Baker]

That is why you don't hover your chopper in one place, its called shoot and scoot.

Exactly. US TOW gunners even train to engage low flying helicopters. And you know they're itching to do it.

[EmBra]

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Eddie Baker;970147']There is only one HAT kit missile in game that is in real life SACLOS guided and that's the Eryx. The Predator/SRAW is just a holdover from BF2. And since the only fire-and-forget, man portable ATGM in service is the Javelin, I doubt this is going to happen in game. At least not for every faction. [/quote]

I realise this but it will not be more unrealistic then it currently is. Since as you say, only the Eryx is manually guided IRL.

Unlike IRL the helicopter pilots and gunners in PR only have a limited viewdistance, from 500m - up to appr. 900m on the various maps. This is not specially realistic now is it So you have to find a middle ground where it can be somewhat realistic and fun at the same time.

[quote="nick20404""]That is why you don't hover your chopper in one place, its called shoot and scoot.[/quote]

Yes, unfortunately in PR you are forced to operate within combat distance of these weapons due to limited viewdistance and if you want to give close air support for your infantry on the ground you are forced to fly lower then you would like to do (you have to see the ground, no?).
And with these manually guided HAT weapons you can even hit moving helicopters without any hassle, I myself have 100% killratio on moving helicopters using the guided HAT.

[strima]

Eddie Baker;970147']
The "Other Javelin (TM)" is an AA missile. Though the Javelin ATGM can theoretically be used against low and slow aircraft, I haven't seen any kind of test footage to that effect.

I keep on forgetting about the 'old' Javelin even though the RA used to have Javelin Regiments back in the good old days of the Cold War. I would love to see some footage of the new Javelin taking out a Fast Jet, that would be sheer pwnage!!!

[Alex6714]

Solution, 2000m view distance, hat = max range of 600m (i think that is the realistic value?) tanks + apcs etc at 1500m, helicopters at 2000m and aa at 2000-2200m, therefor simulating engagement distances.

But meh, I don´t think there is a weapon in game you can´t take down a helicopter with.

Can´t do the lock on hat stuff, cos otherwise helis could also lock on, although that would increase realism even more, and balance to the point where the word balance can be used.

[TF6049]

550-600 is the engagement "butter-zone" for attack helis. If you're going to hit an unknown area, go not less 550m from the target, but not more than 600. Some units may see you, but it's less likely to happen (and if it does, it's an easy escape to 600m where they CAN'T see you).

[cyberzomby]

I agree with the :than dont hover that chopper. I rarely see the attack choppers using there hydra's as well. Instead they just go hover over the mountain range in muttrah and get shot down by hats because the pilot is hovering at 0/kph

Why dont they do strafing runs like the huey's. I'd do a mixture of hovering and strafing runs. And maybe only hover when theres a tank around to take him out with that guided missile.

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

TBH, if pilot is stupid enough to hover over hostile area then he deserves to get shot down...



(no offence to anyone)

[Alex6714]

Its a shame, but the helicopter is more effective when the pilot almost forgets he has a gunner because:

Hover = death.

No hover = gunner has no stabilization = gunner can´t engage.

Delay for hellfires = no ability to fire a quick backup to the one that missed because of the above reason.

Pilots hydras = win, can take out armoured targets (waiting for another a nerf once I have said this) and have a high rate of fire.

Pilots AA missiles, useful against anything light/infantry.

Pilot can evade quicker if he is the one looking around.

Laser rarely works properly as I found out using it yesterday, is slow, lasts for not very long and isn´t even really realistic. Even if you do get a guy lasing, you don´t know where most o the time, and have to hope that he is doing it properly.

[Hotrod525]

Eddie Baker;970147']There is only one HAT kit missile in game that is in real life SACLOS guided and that's the Eryx. The Predator/SRAW is just a holdover from BF2. And since the only fire-and-forget, man portable ATGM in service is the Javelin, I doubt this is going to happen in game. At least not for every faction.



The "Other Javelin (TM)" is an AA missile. Though the Javelin ATGM can theoretically be used against low and slow aircraft, I haven't seen any kind of test footage to that effect.

I'm pretty sure it will work on low flying helicopter... but Javelin would need to actuly impact and explode to take it out. I doubt there is a proximity fuse insade that. But Hold on.

You said Eryx is a kind of "fire and forget" ? So why dont you just implent it as it is in real life and give Javelin to US/Brits... Once again i still dont understand why R-Dev who prone realism do not add it. Dont start about balancin the thing, had you ever look at CR2 or BMP3... dont tell me it is balanced.

[SgtFailure]

at the end of the day, communication is still the definite factor.
The pilot and the gunner must have great communication with the rest of the team, for example, the pilot can do low and fast strafing run with the hydras and only hover when the team needs an apc or tank to be taken out by the hellfires, the gunner's cannon can also help in strafing runs instead of high altitude "sniping" and end up getting hit by the HAT. However, this kind of cooperation is rare and hardly used between attack chopper and squads.

A good pilot would probably go low and fast to the next available cover from AAs and 50cal MGs instead of flying high and slow and being expose the asset to AAs and all kinds of **** the enemy can throw at it.

[EmBra]

550-600 is the engagement "butter-zone" for attack helis. If you're going to hit an unknown area, go not less 550m from the target, but not more than 600. Some units may see you, but it's less likely to happen (and if it does, it's an easy escape to 600m where they CAN'T see you).

I agree and this is what many pilots that know what they do try to do.

The problem is that with the HAT you don't know that he is shooting at you. You do not get a warning signal you just go boom without even realising you were being targeted.
And as an infantry on the ground you can hear the helicopter before he is even in viewdistance and once in viewdistance you can easily spot his silhouette against the skybox.

I agree with the :than dont hover that chopper. I rarely see the attack choppers using there hydra's as well. Instead they just go hover over the mountain range in muttrah and get shot down by hats because the pilot is hovering at 0/kph

As I wrote above, The problem with HAT is that it is manually guided. If a helicopter is hovering at 0km/h then ofcourse he can be shot down easily and should be shot down as well for acting un-wise.
With the manually guided HAT he can move but still be shot down because all you have to do as a HAT operator is keeping the helicopter in your scope and you will have a kill.

Why dont they do strafing runs like the huey's. I'd do a mixture of hovering and strafing runs. And maybe only hover when theres a tank around to take him out with that guided missile.

I didn't create this thread to discuss various ways of flying a helicopter. This thread is about an unrealistic use of the HAT weapon made possible due to unrealistic limitations in the game forcing the helicopters to fly within combatdistance of these weapons.

As a side note. We (my pilot and I) have tried this and tbh you do more good for your team by not flying at all if all you do is waiting for lazed targets and do strafing runs.
You are better off playing as infantry or crewman in that case because your time actually blowing shit up (and help your team) becomes very limited.

TBH, if pilot is stupid enough to hover over hostile area then he deserves to get shot down...



(no offence to anyone)

As I said, the problem is not shooting down hovering 0km/h helicopters, it's the ease with which you can shoot down moving helicopters with the Heavy Anti Tank weapon.

I don't think my suggestion to change the HAT weapon is unrealistic. You still have to expose yourself for 10 seconds (while acquiring lock), so the HAT infantry can be killed if he is not careful.
Normally you don't have to expose yourself more then a few seconds while guiding the HAT towards the tank or APC you want to destroy, and lets be honest here, how often do you really miss your target with the HAT... it's not often

[Eddie Baker]

I'm pretty sure it will work on low flying helicopter... but Javelin would need to actuly impact and explode to take it out. I doubt there is a proximity fuse insade that.

Correct, it would have to be in direct-attack mode and it is not programmed for a proximity air-burst.

But Hold on.

You said Eryx is a kind of "fire and forget" ? So why dont you just implent it as it is in real life and give Javelin to US/Brits... Once again i still dont understand why R-Dev who prone realism do not add it. Dont start about balancin the thing, had you ever look at CR2 or BMP3... dont tell me it is balanced.

No, Eryx is not fire and forget, it is SACLOS guided. It already works in game exactly the way it does in real life- you guide the missile by keeping the sight on the target until it impacts. The shoulder-launched variant also only has a short range in real-life; 600m. However, it is by most accounts a good system within its capabilities (soft-launch/confined space capability) and limitations.

Predator/SRAW and NLAW (Bofors MBT-LAW) are a type of fire-and-forget (inertial, predicted line of sight guidance), but production was canceled years ago on the Predator and NLAW hasn't gotten to the guys who need it, yet. Either way, those are single use disposable weapons. The only true fire-and-forget, reusable, man-portable ATGM systems are the Javelin (US/UK) and the Spike (Israel, license manufactured by Euromissile).

With regard to your last two sentences, stow the attitude.

I never said I was opposed to the Javelin, I have always thought it should be in; I just got outvoted. As for the other factions with SACLOS missiles or bigass bazookas, the ones who have the BMP-3 can cry me the Amazon river (or perhaps the Volga)- that thing's also amphibious, so they can get over it. They won't even need to use the wood from the world's smallest violin and the cross, to which they're nailing themselves, to build a bridge.

I don't think my suggestion to change the HAT weapon is unrealistic. You still have to expose yourself for 10 seconds (while acquiring lock), so the HAT infantry can be killed if he is not careful.
Normally you don't have to expose yourself more then a few seconds while guiding the HAT towards the tank or APC you want to destroy, and lets be honest here, how often do you really miss your target with the HAT... it's not often

Yes, they already have to expose themselves to keep the sight on the target, but they also have a delay time to ready the weapon, during which they can also be spotted and dealt with. So, basically, it will be even less realistic and won't change anything.

[Hotrod525]

Eddie Baker;970571']Correct, it would have to be in direct-attack mode and it is not programmed for a proximity air-burst.



No, Eryx is not fire and forget, it is SACLOS guided. It already works in game exactly the way it does in real life- you guide the missile by keeping the sight on the target until it impacts. The shoulder-launched variant also only has a short range in real-life; 600m. However, it is by most accounts a good system within its capabilities (soft-launch/confined space capability) and limitations.

Predator/SRAW and NLAW (Bofors MBT-LAW) are a type of fire-and-forget (inertial, predicted line of sight guidance), but production was canceled years ago on the Predator and NLAW hasn't gotten to the guys who need it, yet. Either way, those are single use disposable weapons. The only true fire-and-forget, reusable, man-portable ATGM systems are the Javelin (US/UK) and the Spike (Israel, license manufactured by Euromissile).

With regard to your last two sentences, stow the attitude.

I never said I was opposed to the Javelin, I have always thought it should be in; I just got outvoted. As for the other factions with SACLOS missiles or bigass bazookas, the ones who have the BMP-3 can cry me the Amazon river (or perhaps the Volga)- that thing's also amphibious, so they can get over it. They won't even need to use the wood from the world's smallest violin and the cross to which they're nailing themselves to build a birdge.

No offence BTW... just realy disapointed.

[Sabre_tooth_tigger]

TBH, if pilot is stupid enough to hover over hostile area then he deserves to get shot down...



(no offence to anyone)

Ive used the mountains on muttrah, crested the ridge for 10 seconds while using flares.

Within 10 seconds I received a HAT and this was our first contact, I guess they heard us and may have had a spotter but its not always just about stupid flying, our target was about 300m away


I think the real apache can acquire or receive info on targets and even fire on those targets all while staying behind the mountain

[Hotrod525]

Ive used the mountains on muttrah, crested the ridge for 10 seconds while using flares.

Within 10 seconds I received a HAT and this was our first contact, I guess they heard us and may have had a spotter but its not always just about stupid flying, our target was about 300m away


I think the real apache can acquire or receive info on targets and even fire on those targets all while staying behind the mountain

Real Apache are not limited by BF2 engine, and no, real apache cannot attack hided behind a mountain, they can put the radar over the cover, scan, aquire target, pop up shoot, hide and boom.

Wich is entirely possible whit ground laser designation.

[sakils2]

I think the real apache can acquire or receive info on targets and even fire on those targets all while staying behind the mountain

Well it would IRL, but it wouldn't bla bla bla on a guy who has a HAT.