Marksman suggestion, crouch deviation.

[Qaiex]

I think we should make the deviation of the marksmen be minmum when crouching like the riflemen, aswell as lower the amount of time you have to wait before shooting.
The idea is that the marksman sticks with the squad to provide accurate long range support fire. (rofl)
The squad usually works ground level though, and proning is a major disadvantage. The sniper makes sense, they want to get up as high as possible and lie down so they don't get spotted, and when you're above everything and everyone, it doesn't really matter.

But when you're in a squad, walking around, there are so many things that block your sight when you lie down, and you don't have enough time to find the place where you can see anything.
The marksman rifles really need this if they are going to become valuable to a squad, as most of the times they're more of a handicap to a squad than not.

[Feriluce]

The only thing I've seen the marksman kit used for since I started PR is as a makeshift sniper kit, when the regular ones are gone.

[JDMT]

The only thing I've seen the marksman kit used for since I started PR is as a makeshift sniper kit, when the regular ones are gone.

Yeah, that really pisses me off. Hopefully some of these "Creative" thinkers we've got on this forum will come up with a plan to stop this, post it here and hope it hasn't been already suggested.

[Jay]

Agreed. I think this is a really good suggestion; I noticed that the settle time was substantially higher when crouched than when proned, but, like you said, that doesn't really make sense.

[nick20404]

The aiming times for the marksmen suck and are totally unrealistic but I really doubt they will change them because some people feel the weapon will be too good and people will actually want to use it, go figure.

[Mary.au]

If the marksman kit was about as accurate/powerful as the standard rifle, only with a more powerfull scope, then it would be worthwhile using, without being overpowered.

[arjan]

needs to be more accurate than a normal rifle.
it is used for longer engagements, so i could guess it is more precision too, otherwise they wouldnt need a marksman but a normal rifle.

[Ace42]

Should depend on the piece. Part of the accuracy bonus for the kit is due to the bipod, which has no effect when not prone. Kits without bipods should have a substantially less significant bonus for proning vs the other kits. Similarly, kits that use specialist projectiles (SVD, for example, which uses a specially balanced "sniper" variant on the standard AK projectiles) should have significant advantages over their regular infantry counterparts. I am not sure whether the marksman variant of the SA-80 uses special ammo, so it may well be implausible to have non-standard deviation on the SA-80 when not prone. Faster recovery from "movement deviation" might be a "realistic" way of reflecting the superior training a marksman has, without unrealistically changing the gun's dynamics.

[nick20404]

If the marksman kit was about as accurate/powerful as the standard rifle, only with a more powerfull scope, then it would be worthwhile using, without being overpowered.

Ya but but the m14 and the m16 use totally different ammunition so making it do the same damage would be unrealistic, the gun is usable you just have to wait out those fire times if you want an accurate shot which sucks at times. But I don't really think the damage between the two is much off.

What would be nice is if there was some kind of breathing system where you could quickly take a few shots at the cost of your stamina because there is always going to be those times where you don't have 3 seconds to aim.

[Qaiex]

Should depend on the piece. Part of the accuracy bonus for the kit is due to the bipod, which has no effect when not prone. Kits without bipods should have a substantially less significant bonus for proning vs the other kits. Similarly, kits that use specialist projectiles (SVD, for example, which uses a specially balanced "sniper" variant on the standard AK projectiles) should have significant advantages over their regular infantry counterparts. I am not sure whether the marksman variant of the SA-80 uses special ammo, so it may well be implausible to have non-standard deviation on the SA-80 when not prone. Faster recovery from "movement deviation" might be a "realistic" way of reflecting the superior training a marksman has, without unrealistically changing the gun's dynamics.

The marksmen and snipers don't use their bipods in the game.
This still doesn't change that it just takes too long to wait for the deviation with the marksman rifles, for a sniper this time is fine, you're not in the middle of a firefight, you shouldn't even be seen before or after you shoot.

But marksmen are in the middle of the action, they need to be able to lay down fire just as fast as any other soldiers.
Infantry soldiers are always moving towards a target, so most engagements are either random enemy soldiers who just happen to move into your general area or ambushes, which gives the enemy the distinct advantage of already being free of deviation.

[nk87]

Should be removed from the game if you ask me. The problem during the last many patches have been; Either too good or too shat.

Simply remove marksman, and add a scope to the automatic rifleman for coalition forces and then we would have a more realistic "class" setup if you ask me.

And maybe do 10players per sniper. So that three of them can be availible at a 32player team. Make the snipers a little more overpowered by accuracy/cadence over shorter distance(50-250m?), by actually removing the breath needage from that range, ofcourse with a miss chance like normal rifles(marksman/standard?). Then at 300+ make breathing and "stance loading"(aiming at a spot for 5+secs..) needed. - That would "up" the position of a sniper in a normal squad, and make it more usefull to have one in the group.

Personally I know a few people currently in afghanistan, and when they're on mission by foot they always have a sharpshooter team with them, as a signed part of their squad. And scopes on their SAW

[Ace42]

The marksmen and snipers don't use their bipods in the game.

How do you mean? Because of limitations of the game rendering system, when prone and aiming the bipod feet aren't always displayed as locked onto the ground surface? Or because of limitations in the game engine, when using the bipods you aren't locked into really slow lateral aiming movement, like the "deployed" slot of the LMGs?

Either way, these are nit-picking issues - if someone is prone in-game, you can assume they are using bi-pods if the weapon is fitted one, even if there isn't a load of additional animation and code introduced to make it always look like that. It is sensible that recoil / deviation code takes that into account whilst prone. Whilst crouched / standing those deviation bonuses clearly would have no effect.

This still doesn't change that it just takes too long to wait for the deviation with the marksman rifles,
(...) they need to be able to lay down fire just as fast as any other soldiers.

Are the differences that significant? Without the stats or the aiming-reticle resizing, I have no way to tell what the deviation recovery rate is. From playing I assumed (and got the impression) that all the deviation recoveries were generally the same for all the guns, and it was merely the range you were engaging at that was a significant "sighting" factor time.

Infantry soldiers are always moving towards a target, so most engagements are either random enemy soldiers who just happen to move into your general area or ambushes, which gives the enemy the distinct advantage of already being free of deviation.

I think that's how the devs want it. Personally, I think it's just coding a bonus to campers and saying "hey, it's tactical!", but that's what they're aiming for...

I've already posted my suggestions elsewhere for changing the deviation values to prevent rambo style running-and-gunning, but still allow people to react to contacts without having to freeze like a sitting duck before returning fire.

[Jaymz]

You do realize that an M14 shot from a crouched position is three times as accurate as an M16 shot from crouch/prone?