Fanning the flames.....Class limitations

Post by **eggman** » 2006-05-17 22:59

Don't freak out there Maillik....... we're not about to make knee jerk changes based on forum spam... there are some good ideas and some bad ones and even some of our own, but euhhh it's a lil melodramatic to start proclaiming things like "new direction PR's heading in".

egg

Burning Mustache · Post by **Burning Mustache** » 2006-05-17 23:22

I said it in another thread and I have the urge to say it again;
PLEASE! Do NOT limit the playable classes in a team.

The point is, you are NOT going to get people to play properly by FORCING a kit on them.
I would rather have a squad of 5 DEDICATED people playing snipers, and doing this job as good as they can (because this is what they WANT to do right now), than have a squad of 3 engineers and 2 anti tanks (because those are the classes nobody wants to play right now in the round) dicking around, not doing their jobs and waiting for a different kit to pick up or getting frustrated and start TKing, whatever.

A team full of support and snipers (read: "retards") will not be able to win against a well-balanced, teamplaying enemy team EVER.
If they continiue to lose, maybe a few people will figure out that they need to change classes and eventually a few medics, ATs and assault guys will pop up and it will sort itself out.
If you have a team of retards to begin with, you won't be able to win with this team even if you force everybody to play supporting classes every once in a while.

On the other hand, a team of good, intelligent players will eventually sort out the kits by themselves anyway.
Intelligent players will realize when there are enemy tanks approaching your checkpoints / squad and will eventually spawn as AT by themselves - no need to force the job to somebody who really just wants to play sniper right now.

The thing is, the people playing like retards in the first place won't contribute to the team when you force them to play the less popular classes, ever, whilst on the other hand, a class limit will only piss off the dedicated, intelligent players who will eventually play as the class that is currently required anyway, at one point or another.

Please, developers, DON'T fuck this mod up. It looks so promising and I have really found a way to totally enjoy BF2 again, but don't mess this mod which relies so much on realism with some arcadey game balancing issues.

EDIT: As for the "Admin will sort it out" comment;
I have yet to see an admin EVER kick a player in a PR game for retarted behaviour. Relying on "admins" to "sort it out" is basically admitting to not being able to create proper frame for gameplay. If you need an admin to get the people playing the game as intended, why bother with any rules / limitaions / etc. to begin with ?

Post by **eggman** » 2006-05-17 23:28

Hey Guys... just to toss in another thought.... I TOTALLY agree that there are other ways to counter balance class over use than restricting classes.

In addition...... unless we cna come up with an "elegant" UI for it, I doubt we'll do it. We *might* look at ways to restrict certain classes, but I am of the mindset that structuring and designing the classes so that balancing happens "organically" is a better way of dealing with it than having some kludgy UI that forces ppl to spawn into a class they hate.

I am hwoever of the mind set that a medic should not be operating a tank, so we'd like to figure out a way to require a pilot kit and/or a tanker kit to be the driver of a vehicle. What do you guys think of that?

egg

Genocide · Post by **Genocide** » 2006-05-17 23:34

http://realitymod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3276

I know this is a hot topic and I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I know theres another thread regarding this, but I'd rather have my own topic to keep things separate.

Heres what I think, the way FH2 is going to handle class limits is what PR needs to limit specialized classes to allow a more rounded game play. FH is basing the limits on squads; The more people in your squad the greater number of specialized classes you can have(sniper, AT, Support.) And the fewer people in a server (16 slot server) the fewer squads allowed(2-3 squads) the more in the server (64 slot) the more squads allowed(67 squads.)
An example of how the limits will work(how it will work exactly is just what I believe might work any ideas welcome):

2 man squad will be allowed infinite amount of standard rifle men and one medic or Engineer.
3 men you're allowed and inf. amount of standard rifle men 1 Medic/engineer and 1 support.
4 man squad will be allowed Inf. rifle men, 2 medics/engineers, 1 support, 1 dedicated AT.
5 man squad will be allowed inf. rifle men, 2 medics/engineers, 2 support, 1 dedicated AT, 1 Spec ops.
6 man squad will be allowed inf. rifle men, 2 medics/engineers, 2 support, 2 dedicated AT, 1 Spec ops., 1 sniper.

I know that you can change server settings to allow a seventh man in the squad, maybe even eight. Each extra squad member allows for an extra specialized class. This system doesn't force people to play as a certain class nor does it force them to join a squad, but if they want a chance to use some better/specialized weapons they'll have to join a squad and use teamwork.

If you read through the post theres alot of other ideas and tweaks for my idea. Class limitations are not total limitations they can be molded to fit the map and any scenario needed.

Burning Mustache · Post by **Burning Mustache** » 2006-05-17 23:42

'[R-DEV wrote:eggman'] but I am of the mindset that structuring and designing the classes so that balancing happens "organically" is a better way of dealing with it than having some kludgy UI that forces ppl to spawn into a class they hate.

Excellent, I like your mindset

Really, what makes a good game are game dynamics which will eventually lead to the players sorting the gameplay out (evenly) by themselves. And with PR, I see the perfect framework for this, seeing as (just like in real life) you need a very big diversity of player types / classes to be successful, hence people will eventually figure out the best ways to win by themselves, thereby "forcing" them to play certain classes at one point or another anyway, yet still having a framework that enables each player to make this decision by themselves.

I am hwoever of the mind set that a medic should not be operating a tank, so we'd like to figure out a way to require a pilot kit and/or a tanker kit to be the driver of a vehicle. What do you guys think of that?

I also encourage this idea.
It would definately get more people to play engineers / etc (if that would be the only class to drive tanks).

It would also encourage people to play their classes a lot more dedicated and with orientation to definite goals (e.g. not like "Hay, lets spawn as a medic and look what to do ... Oohh, a tank, lets wreak som havok! Damn, my tank is on fire, I better get into that chopper and see where I can crash it!")

Please, go more along this road than to force people into roles they don't want to play.

six7 · Post by **six7** » 2006-05-17 23:42

I really think if there is a tanker/pilot class that that kit will need to either be pick up, or the person would grab the kit upon entering the vehicle (not sure if this is possible). I would hate to be running around in a squad and have half of the guys playing as tanksers because they couldn't grab that last tank...

Post by **eggman** » 2006-05-18 02:15

We're thinking that this is a good use for pickup kits .. spawning a tanker / pilot kit beside the tank / plane / helo / apc. This also has issues that need to be addressed that are not so easy within the tools available to modders, so we gotta think it through.

PR currently has a lot of features and such, but a lot of them lack polish. We want to maintain a nice balance between cool new stuff that's a bit rough around the edges, versus polishing up stuff that was cool and new in prior releases.. we need to clean up stuff like the xtract mode and such so that it's at a polish level (or better) of a professional gaming company.

Some aspects of modding in the BF2 engine will never allow that because the workarounds are so kludgy that .. without the engine completely exposing everything to us .. we just don't have the tools available to implement some things in the way they need to be done to be percieved as polished.

There is a significant problem with pickup kits we're still trying to resolve, so I am not ever sure if they are usable.

egg

Burning Mustache · Post by **Burning Mustache** » 2006-05-18 02:26

I just wanted to tell you that I really apprecciate the effort you guys put into this. It's nice to hear some mod developers finally trying to make a very high quality mod and sticking to their quality standards. You guys seem to be very reasonable and enthusiastic about this.
I hope that DICE will one day give you guys the support you need to implement ideas some day which can't be achieved due to engine limits right now.

Keep it up!

Post by **NikovK** » 2006-05-18 02:33

I don't like the idea of a tanker/pilot kit. People will spawn in pilot or tanker and have nothing to drive, then sit around waiting for one instead of hopping a ride to the battle. Also since the most effective fighting drivers are engineers, most tankers already use that kit anyway.

Or if its a pick-up kit, people will fight over them or grab them and then goof off with it. Also the enemy could sneak in, grab your pilot kit, and hide the rest of the mission in a corner; killing your air support. Its a mechanic that could easily go wrong.

Armand61685 · Post by **Armand61685** » 2006-05-18 03:28

I think the PR dev team needs to focus on attracting military simulation players from already existing mil sim games (the mil sim fan base exists). And don't say that PR isn't a military simulator, it's moreso a mil sim than a plain old shooter, that's for sure.

We need to cator to our already existing fanbase, not try to balance things out for the noobs and arcade kiddies who find mil sims too hard.

PROJECT REALITY!

six7 · Post by **six7** » 2006-05-18 03:36

How about this:
You can spawn as any kit and still use a vehicle. Once you enter a tank/jet you kit changes repectivly to pilot/tanker. This means that once you bail out, you will not have your "uB3r l337" SPR anymore. f you happen to go down in an aircraft, you wont be a killing machine, but rather have nothing but a basic PDW and a parachute. This means that idiots who hop in a tank wont be able to repair "on the fly" and that sniper who takes his helo on a one way trip will be unpeasently surpiresed with the results of their actions. Although this seems farfetched from a realism standpoint, I do not want to see 10 guys with the pilot kit standing around the helipad the entire battle, or, for that matter, 10 guys murdering each other for the tank kit that is the "magical key" to the abrams they want ever so badly. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » 2006-05-18 03:51

Or, in future versions if the AT kit is no longer required,
add a pilot class that contains a PDW with maybe 2 magazines
(1 locked and loaded, other in reserve), a knife and
a colored smoke grenade.

That, or upon exiting tank/aircraft, the model changed to that
of the pilot and the player already has things added/reduced/removed.

That might take some serious python coding.

Post by **eggman** » 2006-05-18 04:10

unfortunately there is no "setKit" command in BF2, just a "getKit". A setKit capability would be outstanding .. you'd see a lot of possibilities open up with this, but the engine does not expose it to us.

egg

OverwatchX · Post by **OverwatchX** » 2006-05-18 05:50

Red Orchestra had class limitations and what happened to that mod? It won awards, the Build Something Unreal contest, and the ended up on store shelves last month. Not too shabby.

Despite the fact that some of you say a squad full of snipers will look retarded and wont win, it wont change the fact that that will occur. Its like you are saying these people are going to wake up. They wont! End result: 5 SAW gunners and a medic. 4 Medics and 2 snipers. 6 ATs. The real end result, "realism" ends up one step closer to the toilet.

America's Army had class limitations. Its still very popular and played often. Even though I got bored with it cuz I played it forever, I never felt like my fun was hampered. I tried for a SAW spot or sniper spot and got it from time to time. OR, I picked one up when it was dropped because the soldier was killed. Marvelous.

But here in BF2 PRMM (which is a great MOD and my favorite), you could theoretically have 30 SAW gunners at once. Or, worse even, you get killed by a tank then respawn as an AT along with 10 other people, you all gang rape the tank from every direction, and go about your business. Now thats lame. And it happens all the time. That means armor loses its real danger on the battlefield and it isnt as scary or as formidable.

Another scenario, you see a sniper who picks off you and your squad. You respawn on your squad leader as a sniper and shoot him because you know where he is and now you've leveled the playing field by getting your own scoped weapon. Lame. Where the reality in that?

Will players run away from this mod with class limitations? Some I suppose. But others might stay...or even others might come to it when they hear there are limitations. One could "what if" this all day long.

I love this mod. LIke I say, I tell my BF2 friends to get it. I rave about it. I love it. Finally BF2 as it should have been. But to see how unrealistic these squad or force compositions gets, or to see selective respawning to suit ones needs, dampens the gameplay a bit for me.

How is this fixed? Well, there have been many great ideas. Here are a few more:

Just like the commander slot, have players take weapon classes slots. When they die, they could then select an available weapon slot (like AT, Sniper, Medic, etc) or revert to the always available assault class slot. Some maps might have Spec Ops class as the always available class slot. Whatever. I dont know.

Then with tanks and aircraft/helos. Have a pickup kit next to the vehicle for tanker, pilot etc. As it is now, a freaking AT gunner can drive a tank presumably bringing all that gear on his back inside the tank too.

There many things that are abstract in this game such as entering and exiting vehicles (although I think this should have a small delay for climbing in and out) but class limitations is hard to write off and believe when you get 30 SAW gunners coming at you.

Is anyone going to miss out on fun as an assault class? I doubt it. They will still have a blast and still have the ability to pick up a dropped weapon kit to get a SAW I suppose. Even if they cant pick up the kit, they can jump into an open speciality slot for a respawn once it becomes available..then the battles will much better reflect Reality. My 2 cents.

Armand61685 · Post by **Armand61685** » 2006-05-18 06:15

Worst engine for modding, ever?

weidel · Post by **weidel** » 2006-05-18 08:09

Malik wrote:Limitations are pointless. As I keep saying, there's no point forcing people to do certain things, it works a lot better if you make the things you want them to do the best options.

Currently, there are many reasons to like the Sniper kit. It has a shiny new gun, and it's pretty much a killing machine from any range. Forcing players not to use it is just going to piss a lot of people off. Making something else more desirable means they're less likely to select it.

Ask yourself the question: why aren't real armies full up with snipers? The answer to that question is probably because sniping takes a lot more skill than what's demonstrated in PRMM. Solution then? Make sniping as tedious as it is in real life. The accuracy should be poor unless the scope is help in a constant position for a while. Adjust the idle animation to incorporate swaying, varying depending on the position you're in, so even if you've lined up the perfect shot you have to wait for your scope to line up.

In the real army, snipers aren't chosen because they have the highest spec computers, the fastest loading times and the ability to sprint to the gym sack full of sniping gear. They snipe because they've devoted themselves to the art and thus have become better at it.

Apply this to all other limitation related issues. You'll find there are simple ways to solve all these debates without having to childishly limit things.

You forgot to mention, that in real life, armies are not filled with snipers because you can count on a normal rifle to be deadly precise up to 300 meters away. In PRMM the accuracy of rifles and carbines have gone completely down the drain, compared to the accuracy of the sniper rifles.

Further more, In reality, the lethality of sniperrifles and normal rifles is equal when the same callibre is used. The sniperrifles in PRMM for some reason all kill in one shot most of the time, which is very hard to achieve with any other weapon in the game.

So yes, theres no reason to chose a "real" class, when one can choose to run around with a noob railgun!

Burning Mustache · Post by **Burning Mustache** » 2006-05-18 10:45

JohnDoeGamer wrote:stuff

The thing is, I don't have a problem with playing AT if there are too few, or Medic if my squad has none yet.
What would be a problem for me though, is that when having a kit / class limit, you will eventually get the dumbfuck noob to play the AT class (and hence filling the slot) which is just too bad / dumb to take out the enemy tanks or APCs. Or you will get your noob / retard to fill the medic slot, always rushing for the enemy, NEVER healing or reviving teammates and dying all the time.

You get the idea.
While it IS very stupid and unralistic that you are even able to have a team full of supports or snipers, as I mentioned before, these teams / squads usually won't win the battle anyway, rather those teams who sort out the classes according to the need of the current situation (and hence creating a realistic diversity) will.

On the other hand, when you limit the classes and "force" the diversity in the first place, you will probably get the odd noobs of your team (who won't join squads, etc. anyway) to fill and block the important classes, hence hindering the team from winning.
When I see an enemy tank pounding the **** out of my squad, I will try to respawn as an AT without hesitating and take that thing out.
With limited classes, however, you have a big chance of the AT class already being filled by a bunch of craptards who can't play and will run around like headless chickens, making your team dead meat because the good players CAN'T spawn as AT and take the tank out.

Really, I said it before; Good teams will eventually sort it out by themselves according to the needs of the gameplay either way, and bad teams will lose, forced kits or not.
The only effect forced kits would have is to limit the abilities of the good players and hence cripple the team.

ETCS_keysR · Post by **ETCS_keysR** » 2006-05-18 11:18

Well, is it possible to "attach" a kit to the score? I mean, a kit appears as selectable only if you earned a set number of kills/teamplay score. And make a sniper available only to those who killed 10 enemies in that round, for example. This would take care of newbie snipers

I'm all for kit restrictions and limitations - and I have some bizzare and really "off" idea

how about givin the specialized kits to the commander? Everybody could spawn as a medic, assault or engineer. Then the SL requests a "kit drop", just like supply drop, from the commander. SL would decide to whom give the AT, support or sniper - then he tells that guy, there will be a "kit drop" and to change kits. Not very realistic, I know