Burning Mustache wrote:
I understand how class limits work, which is exactly why I don't want to see them in PR. Granted, I never played RO, and it may certainly be a fun game, but I can't see this contributing to PR more than my way of approaching this problem.
If I have understood you correctly your way of approaching this is that the current situation is the "lesser of two evils" and should remain unchanged. Am I correct? If so, then my suggestion does A LOT in contributing to PR. Sure RO is WW2-themed but that doesn't really matter. It's very much a similar type of game. It strives for realism, and has both infantry and vehicle combat (although more inclined to infantry than PRMM, except for a couple of almost pure tank maps). It has a somewhat similar amount of players on each map, 32 players max, with somewhat smaller maps since there are no airplanes).
They also have their version of AAS with cap-areas having to be "unlocked", although you usually have more than one route to attack. So if you have 5 areas in total 2 of them might be open to begin with, on different fronts allowing for multiple strategies.
I guess it comes down to personal preference there.
To me, like I said, I'd rather have a squad of 5 DEDICATED snipers than a squad of 2 ATs and 3 Engineers dicking around because people don't want to play this role or crippling the team because the team relies on them but they are unable to do the job, whilst an experienced player would be READY and WILLING to do their job, yet he can't because the slots are already occupied.
Honestly, how often have you encountered a squad of 5 DEDICATED snipers? You are making it sound like people play well and for the team just because they get to pick their favourite kit. This is not the case, atleast not on the European servers I play at, and it hasn't been the case the few times I played on American servers either.
And I can't see why people would just run around shooting at the sky because they can't become snipers. They would probably whine for a while and then either disconnect or play as something else. In the long run this would probably have some of them realize there is more to this game than sniping. They can pretend they are Rambo or something instead of Mr. Über-Sniper. If someone start to TK they would be kicked or banned like TKers today. That's more of an issue with server-settings and active admins.
The retards will be retarded no matter if they can play as snipers or not, and the good teamwork-oriented players who have realized the incredibly superior gaming experience teamwork delivers - they will not change because they cannot play as sniper even though they would like too. It's not an either/or-situation. The difference between the two modes (class-limits vs ffa) is that the retards will mostly be retarded assaulters and not retarded snipers, thus increasing the level of realism. As assaults they won't lie on roofs in a corner of the map, atleast not a majority of them like today.
I am already getting pissed by dumbfucks in my squad playing medic and not reviving me, yet with the current system, there is always the chance of an experienced player ALSO going to spawn as medic and doing their job. With a class limit, you take this ability away from the good, experienced players, who are ready and willing to participate in teamwork.
Game balancing issues in a realism mod should NOT punish those willing to sacrifice themselves for the team and putting effort in teamwork (which a class limit would do), but it should punish those who play ridicolously stupid and unrealistic.
Well, it's not as simple as that. You have a point, but remember that the current situation will also lead "teamwork-players" to avoid playing as medics because there are already 15 cs-kids doing that on the server. So as it is today you might end up with 15 worthless medics, which isn't as useful as 5 dedicated ones.
My solution if this would be possible to implement with the engine is that you would have to be tied to a squad to be able to spawn as Medic. And if the Squadleader receives complaints or is disapproving of his medic's performance he could kick him out of the squad thus freeing the Medic-slot for someone else who hopefully will do a better job helping out.
About the punishing-aspect. In some situations yes, a class-limit will "punish" a teamplayer although it will punish the bad players more (and more often). This is the thing. Nothing is perfect. Teamplayers are constantly punished today by having to play on a map with 70% snipers.
Again, like I said in my previous post, this should be achieved via the overall game dynamics.
If a team CHOOSES to play ONLY with snipers and support guys, LET THEM.
They won't win.
And if they do, the overall game dynamics are broken and need to be reconsidered.
But explain to me how you would solve these problems via the "overall game dynamics" if you don't have some kind of class-limiting.
And of course the team with 100% snipers will not win, but they will succeed in ruining the game-experience for everyone but themselves. Winning is not important, this is a game after all. I couldn't care less if I win an overwhelming victory on Jungle Fever if my team consists of 10 more players and all on the opposing sides play as snipers. It's just 2 mins of absolute boredom.
In real life (which this mod is supposed to aim for) a "team" placed entirely on rooftops with snipers / machine guns might hold the position for a while and score a few kills, after a while though, the enemy will use choppers / artillery to bomb the **** out of them.
You can do exactly that in PR, because you are given the opportunity to.
Eventually, this team will TOTALLY lose and after a while, players will realize that having 20 snipers in a squad is NOT the way to win, and people will adapt.
Again, look at Counterstrike.
In real life you can get court-martialed. And you don't get to respawn if killed. Again, what is the point of winning if there is no real challenge.
And no, people will not adapt. These morons do not care if their team wins or loses. They just want to take the helicopter, land it on a roof and then stay there for the rest of the round killing nothing but their inbred counter-parts on the other team doing the exact same thing on the opposing rooftop.
CS is not relevant. It's a very different game, mostly due to the map-design and size.
If PR would encourage life-like behavoir (which it does for the most part, sans some imbalanced maps like Muttrah City, which will eventually be balanced out too), people would form realistic, diverse squads by themselves.
Wishful thinking I'm afraid.
Really, I do NOT see a point in a class limit other than limiting / pissing off those players who actually try to contribute to the game.
Try RO. You can purchase it for 25 dollars off Steam. It's very much worth the money. Play it for a while so you understand it, then think about what it would be like with no class-limits.
About the "feeling special as the only class";
IF a team works together nicely and evens up the classes by themselves, there won't be more than one sniper / AT per squad anyway, so YOU have the chance to choose this role and YOU have a lot of responsibility - whilst still keeping the chance for another, experienced player open to aid you in this task.
That's a pretty big if, which makes the argument irrelevant. If there were no morons playing computer games we wouldn't be having this discussion.
