Convenient spawns, can we do without them?

[Rudd]

Make me think also, of rather than rally points you have a gamemode in which flag spawns are returned, however only the flag 2 flags back from the front, ie, not the attackable one.

Interesting, perhaps that could be replicated with FBs like you say. Its always a bit annoying when the MEC can get their firebase up in docks even though teh USMC have the flag.

[Rudd]

It should slowly heal people at the same rate as they bleed out, to stop people dying but still require medics.

ooo, thats a nice idea. I've wanted that for apc like vehicles as well for a while.

[snow]

I like the idea of limiting the spawns off of RPs, either to x per minute or x total.

[akatabrask]

Interesting, perhaps that could be replicated with FBs like you say. Its always a bit annoying when the MEC can get their firebase up in docks even though teh USMC have the flag.

Yeah, perhaps we could get back those minimum distances that rallis had to flags in earlier versions, don't see why those were removed (except for some maps getting huge cap radiuses).
Also, a flag shouldn't be cappable if an enemy fb is within the flags radius in order to prevent the above statement, and then of course a fb shouldn't be buildable within the cap radius of a enemy (and also neutral?) flag.

Also, the idea with limited spawns per rally could be nice if codeable.
But how would one reset the spawns? By "refilling" at a fb and/or main?

[badmojo420]

I think this would improve inter-squad teamwork. Right now FOBs aren't used or valued as much as they should be. Which works fine, when your squad has a rallypoint. But what about squads of 2? or when your rally gets overrun? When that happens, we end up with people walking for 10mins to get back to the battle.

I feel we're fragmenting our troops too much. Making it so 3-6 people are the ONLY ones defending your only forward spawn point. It creates situations where you're constantly getting overrun. We rarely have all 32 people attacking from the same direction, which leads to a scattering of spawn points in a circle around enemy positions. I understand this is easily fixed by having a well organized team, but how often does that happen in pub games? The game mechanic is supporting single squad rambo/specop type tactics.

People complain that removing the rallys would force the whole team to find transport or have a long walk into battle. But, if everyone on the team was in that situation, where they could only spawn at the main. The whole team would be looking to create a closer spawn point. And would all be working together to defend that position.

Maybe just make all friendly rallys spawnable by the whole team. But that also has its problems.

[(HUN)Rud3bwoy]

I really wont like to see this happen in a later PR release. Im all for teamwork(if I werent, I wouldnt be here), and "realism", but if this would be implemented, I'd really think about leaving PR...

PR is a nice balance between fun and realism, but this would take away a huge part of the fun factor. All I can say what has already been mentioned: many times there is simply no transport(not even a hummvee or apc) to take and walking to the objective is just boring. Not to mention being killed right after arriving to the objective. I think everyone experienced that sometimes you just get killed many times consecutively in a short time, and you cant help it. Imagine that with no transport. Im sure most guys would just quit the server once they should start their 3rd march towards an objective 1000m far.

The truth is that I dont think an average public player could take this, only those who play in the tornament or are part of a clan. I am plaiyng since 0.5 and there were changes I frowned upon, later they turned out to be good, but this seems to be a bit much.

[IAJTHOMAS]

The truth is that I dont think an average public player could take this, only those who play in the tornament or are part of a clan. .

Try me.

Love,

Your average public player

On a more serious note, I think it may work for the smaller maps and would be interesting to try.

But on say Kashan where FBs tend to get taken out quite quickly if they're anywhere within a reasonable distance of a flag and transport is vulnerable I think it might get a bit tiresome. Its bad enough if you're having one of those bad Kashan rounds to get anywhere with RPs as infantry.

Kahsan perhaps is an extreme example, but even large forest maps like Kozelsk where getting supplies forward is difficult and FB placement locations are to some extent limited due to the road/terrain layout, may be a bit painful. However, transport here would be less of a problem with APCs and technicals etc.

[(HUN)Rud3bwoy]

Try me.

Love,

Your average public player

Allright, then MOST average public players

[Wicca]

Ok ive been thinking, going through some other threads which is kinda linked to this one in a weird way.


The problem which i see is the spam factor, aka rambo factor.

How to deal with this factor?

Well make spawn times longer, or make the time from spawn to combat longer.

This has been suggested, i think i read in another thread that Fuzzhead wanted a 2 min dead time and 5 min CW state, but i might have read it wrong, this can solve that problem. We dont know, but i do know alot of people will be pissed.

Also what is being suggested here is the removal of RPs, to make the team working more towards a FOB, which can make going into battle easier. And cooperation between squads more fluent.

Another thing that is being suggested is the RP only supporting 6-12 members to spawn.

and finaly, the last thing i got was that the rally, and APC would serve as a CW center and ammo center for wounded troops and those in need of Ammo.

So with all the above mentioned, i give you this, my suggestion, or solution.

APC and RP give you ammo, and stagnants your health, until medical personell reach you, or you reach them with the apc.

You cannot spawn at a rally, but SL can still set one.

And FOBs, spawn transport cars, Without armament, like the hummer... Althought i dont know what the MEC or PLA has.

Also, what Fuzzhead says can be a good concept, but im not that brave, im not going to push i that far. Its... Scary... If he proposes it, i will support him.. But... Yeah...

So rudd, what do you think about this?

[Alex6714]

The problem which i see is the spam factor, aka rambo factor.

How to deal with this factor?

Well make spawn times longer, or make the time from spawn to combat longer.

Or you actually die when you get hit.

[Wicca]

Hm interesting... Is that realistic hehe

[Jigsaw]

Hm interesting... Is that realistic hehe

Little bit

[Orthas]

Limiting spawns to FBs has one big problem. In that model, few stupid players can ruin the game for everyone by blowing supplies/building stupid FBs. It's not something anyone wants I suppose.

I'd still like some discussion about the idea that rally point would actually be a point where the squad can rally. As in those who're down can spawn when the rest of the squad is by the rally. It would limit "enemies coming from nowhere" problems as the surviving enemies would have to get back to the rally safely. Also in this solution the importance of Firebases would be greater because some times the whole squad gets wiped out. And in my opinion in those situations the squad should be put back considerably.

Ideas about rallys supplying ammo are not so great because they would further make supplies obsolete. Supplies are an important factor and should be so in PR also. Even though at the moment they can be abused by kit disappear vs. man down time but hopefully that can be fixed at some point also.

Rallys and APCs keeping bleeding stable is a great idea, completely support that. It encourages teamwork and offers opportunities.

Also there's one serious problem with limiting the number of people spawning from rally. In that scenario, SL should be always resetting the rally to make sure it's available. If it's per minute, then it would just lead to unnecessary waiting if multiple guys are spawning, better would be to limit it otherwise.

[Rudd]

Limiting spawns to FBs has one big problem. In that model, few stupid players can ruin the game for everyone by blowing supplies/building stupid FBs. It's not something anyone wants I suppose.

thats true, but thats the same for many assets in PR

maybe this kind of system would help?

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... oints.html

[vilhelm123]

The idea of removing rallies is a very interesting point and it taken me a good deal of thinking about it before I even started typing this reply out.

Rallies do create a good deal of spammy combat there not really much argument about that but I'm still not convinced that the idea of fully removing them would be a good one. It would make Firebases far more important which would be great but for a proper Firebase to be built it must be protected and with the current amount of incendiary grenades, meaning that any Billy no mates can kill a firebase, about a full squad will be needed in order to do so. That’s 6 people out of a 32 man team leaving 26 people doing 'other things'. Have a couple of fb’s up and it seriously starts to eat into the teams numbers. My point being that while its a good idea it won't be tactically viable much of the time.

Firebases are also very easy to see alot of the time and/or very predictable. Meaning that relying on them may very quickly turn into a problem on some maps, main examples I can think of are Jabal, Basra, Asah Kal and Muttrah, although admittedly to a lesser extent on Muttrah.

I have also seen talk of making spawn times longer on the forums as well and I don't think that is the answer either. Quickest way to compare how that would be is to imagine that all players had to be Civiys on Basra. I reckon that it would simply make the game boring and that increasing the spawn time would be forgoing the fact that Pr is still a game and will never be able to represent real life no matter what changes are made in favor of trying to force players to act as real soldiers.

Overall I don't think that rallies removal is a good idea. With the changes that look likely to be happening to the medic kit come 0.9. Rallies would become even more important and thus more worried about. But the spammyness may well still remain however. Thus I believe that rather than changing the rallies themselves it would be better to change how easy it is to set them instead.

My ideas for changing the system would be

• Set a max distance from a flag for rally creation. I don't remember having the same level of problems with spammy rallies in 0.75 when a max distance existed.
• Bring the number of people needed to set one up to 3 Squad members and the Squad leader. Thus meaning that more than half the squad is needed to bring about a rally.

Also in order to run something of a devils advocate point here as well.

Would the removal of rallies spawn not mean that there would be more rambos? In Vbf2 seemingly the only reason to join a squad was to be able to have another spawn point. In pr the fact that you can spawn on the squads rallies is a major reason to join one. Thus without a rally to spawn at why bother joining at all? After all anybody can spawn at a Firebase. Yes you couldn’t get kits but people have been joining squads and then leaving once they have their kit since that system began.

[AnRK]

I'd be very much in favour of this (although I'd like to see how things worked out without rally points first before trying to play without FBs too) if we were to decrease the spawn time on transport vehicles. Things may get a little lame on maps like barracuda at first, but I think people would take wasting helis and stuff along those lines much more seriously the value of transport vehicles were to increase.

Personally I think firebases should definitely stay if their dynamic were to be changed a little. A while back I mentioned that perhaps it might be a good idea to reinstate vanilla style spawning on certain flags (with a delay) with the prospect of getting vehicles re-enforcements from that CP too (something already in game on korengal but is a concept that is gonna get used more in future maps it seems).

But perhaps instead of having a delayed spawn on that CP vanilla style you could get rid of how FBs are built now, and then limit them to being built on likely logistics points, so you would have a valuable CP on a road at the edge of a map, and a firebase can be built there as a means of spawning there and maybe even a modifier in what, if any, vehicles you get from that CP depending on what the mapper wants to do with the CP. Then you could maybe even create supply lines in the form of having CPs that run along a road, and if you have a CP connected to the edge of the map with a friendly firebase, then your free to build one on the next connected CP. Maybe even have it so firebases can be built on CPs which are along the road from main bases, or maybe even have it so you can build firebases on abandoned bases on maps with helipads/airfields (which you could take another step further and integrate objectives i.e. you can't build a firebase/receive re-enforcements when there is enemy AA in X distance from the CP).

In short it'd be like an AAS system for logistics that'd integrate a quasi-realistic slant on the supply chain, while making sure the gameplay doesn't get too hardcore as to no longer be that fun, plus It'd add some direction to frontlines because it'd get rid of the guerilla style firebases behind enemy lines you get now.

[Rudd]

^would be nice to see the old bunker model also

[badmojo420]

Would the removal of rallies spawn not mean that there would be more rambos? In Vbf2 seemingly the only reason to join a squad was to be able to have another spawn point. In pr the fact that you can spawn on the squads rallies is a major reason to join one. Thus without a rally to spawn at why bother joining at all? After all anybody can spawn at a Firebase. Yes you couldn’t get kits but people have been joining squads and then leaving once they have their kit since that system began.

You can't tell me the only reason you join a squad is to get access to their rallypoint. Sure, maybe when you're picking a squad that comes into consideration. But a good squad offers a whole lot more then just an alternate spawn. And so what if some people aren't in a squad? Does it mean the team should be punished by spawning those people further back? What if your squad leader CTD'ed? Or if you just joined and you're the only one NOT in a full squad. Or what if all the squad leaders are epic failures? Just because a player is squadless doesn't automatically make him a rambo who is unable to help the team. And with mumble being used now, single blues are a nice addition to a squad of 6.