Are players used to the 30 seconds of waiting ?

[666PROTECTOR]

Well in PR people usually dont care about points. But I got an good idea about this.

1) if respawn was 15s, every time you die you get +5 to respawn time. So after few deaths you really dont want to die again



2) What people the most hate to lose is the rallypoint. If 5-7 squadmembers dies within 10 min, the RP goes down and cannot be remade for ~30s.

With this, even that the respawn was 10s, they would be careful not to lose the RP. Everybody loves the Rp and dont want to walk from the main.

I wouldn´t want to be the guy who makes a suicide rush and because of that my squad loses RP. Whoa, that would be awful.

We have to think about points as (benefits-actions)[/U]- thats drive us to win
if ppl (would not care about points-they would not kill,repair,drive as dedicated transport)-bouth teams they would run straight to objective without killing yeah other

the main principal of game is to win,and you can only do it by gaining points ( wasting ticket of other team) people care about points but they might called other way

like losing rally is lose of point,-driving away from your objective


and about ading seconds ,its simply don't work if some one is thard adding x second wont change his behaviors, but giving him points for doing other thing might change his way of playing


and about 2)
you are 100% right and i support you idea
- losing rally is just like losing points ,and the points drive you to win

[666PROTECTOR]

Guy's count to 15. Now count to 15 again.

Now look around.

Are you still alive? Did the seas turn to blood? Probably not.

If you expect the amount of time counting to X to alter players behavior then you are kidding yourself. We've extended spawn times to the breaking point, and I cannot see any difference between PR 0.5 and PR 0.85 as far as behavior is concerned.

Extending spawn times has the opposite effect in fact. As people have stated it is just a chance to stretch, read a book, watch a movie, or anything else (if I have a spawn time over 30 seconds I alt tab and watch LOST). But even if the player sat at the screen and watched it, then once you've snapped them out of the experience, any spawn time is abstract. Each player has their own time of how long it takes for them to be snapped out of the game world. Once this happens no one cares about what goes on in it. For me it takes maybe 15 seconds of blank screen for me to start doing something else at my desk. If I am reading a book while playing a game something has gone terribly wrong.

Remove rally points, remove spawn times, and send players back to main or outposts for the following reasons:

• It keeps the players in the game which helps immersion.
• Its more realistic than players popping out of bags which can be put on a tree or a mailbox.
• It creates a more sensible logistical chain.
• It will create a more coherent front line and battlefield in general just because more players will start from the same place.
• It is not arbitrary as many spawn times can end up being.

i agree

[666PROTECTOR]

So I'm going to give my 2 cents about this.


S!

oh yes i playd Desert combat for bf 1942 we had mobile spawn points it wos expolted every day to the max ,mobile spawn points are very bad idea.

[FuzzySquirrel]

Wow triple post that's skillz.

[fubar++]

...

Remove rally points, remove spawn times, and send players back to main or outposts for the following reasons:

• It keeps the players in the game which helps immersion.
• Its more realistic than players popping out of bags which can be put on a tree or a mailbox.
• It creates a more sensible logistical chain.
• It will create a more coherent front line and battlefield in general just because more players will start from the same place.
• It is not arbitrary as many spawn times can end up being.

I too have to agree with you. I thought before that increasing spawn times would be the way to go for realism, but you are right - whatever you do it always will remain a game and increasing spawn times might have too many negative side effects.

RP spawn has had it own purpose in the game development, but you could think it as a ladder which you take with you when you move to the next level.

[TheLean]

Well if the concern is to prevent people from spamming lives then having them move to the battle from a bunker or firebase does the same thing, but without breaking the game flow.

I personally think we could do with a 5 second respawn time (just enough to change your spawn point) and then remove all these silly penalties (for playing the game), and in theory people would actually care about their lives since they actually had to invest some time into getting back into the fight. Simply sitting in a black screen just means most people will alt tab and catch up on LOST. I mean you can get what, 10 minutes for killing a civilian? At some point you have to ask "do we want people playing the game or not?".

The flipside is of course that firebases would be hard to attack since people would spawn instantly which is bad for immersion and gameplay, atleast if you are not very close with 3 men since that negates the spawn. Perhaps players could spawn instantly in mainbase, 30second spawn at the FOB and 90 seconds at the rallypoints.

[fuzzhead]

RP spawn has had it own purpose in the game development, but you could think it as a ladder which you take with you when you move to the next level.

good quote and yes i agree. theres a couple ways you can handle it... "another wrung on the ladder" or removing it entirely (my preference) but I think CAS makes some good points as do others in the thread.

What I dont like to hear is doomsday talk, like "it will be the end of PR no one will ever play it it will suck all the fun out of the mod i will quit". there have been alot bigger gameplay changes in the past, and they have only increased the player base, so if that is the only thing you have to add to this discussion, please keep your opinion to yourself, fear mongering is not advancing the discussion.

here is some good points that I think are worth repeating:

The idea is to make it feel less like fighting the undead horde, and feel more like you're receiving a new unit altogether, which makes more sense on every level.

Respawn Times: nothing about them is realistic. It is purely related to the game aspect. Whether its 30 seconds, 30 minutes, or 30 years, having someone pop out of a bag will always be gamey.

Does it matter how long it takes for someone to bend the time space continuum? The idea is that you shouldn't see someone spawn.

If you get within 1-200m of a spawn it needs to shuts off.

Remove rally points and send players back to main or outposts for the following reasons:

* It keeps the players in the game which helps immersion.
* Its more realistic than players popping out of bags which can be put on a tree or a mailbox.
* It creates a more sensible logistical chain.
* It will create a more coherent front line and battlefield in general just because more players will start from the same place.
* It is not arbitrary as many spawn times can end up being.

Current Rallypoint Rules:
- To Deploy, you must be a SL and have an officer kit
- To Deploy, you must have 2 other squad members within 50m of your position
- If you RP is destroyed, you cannot set a new one for 2 minutes
- If 3 enemy close within 50m of the RP, it is destroyed
- If 6 squad members dies within 25m of the RP, it is destroyed

Some proposed new Rallypoint Rules:

Idea #1 - Remove Rallypoints completely - Firebase is the only spawn point in the field

Idea #2 - Rallypoints expire 30 seconds after they are deployed, and can only be deployed every 2 minutes.

Idea #3 - Rallypoints can only be deployed with 200m radius of a firebase.

Idea #4 - Limit the amount of spawns that can happen on rallypoint (can see alot of exploits with this)

not saying any these will make it into the mod but I think this is a good discussion and glad to hear peoples opinion about it (as long as its rational and giving good logic)

[Outlawz7]

Perhaps players could spawn instantly in mainbase, 30second spawn at the FOB and 90 seconds at the rallypoints.

That's what I suggested once ages ago and it got shot down.

As far as instant spawn on main bases goes, it would be good, but it would mean that once you are onto the enemy's last flag, they would be coming out of the base like zombies, imagine capturing the fortress on Muttrah and MEC keeps coming out of that little dead end suburb in waves, although it would kinda make sense that the further you go the more there should be.


I also have to say that I never considered spawn times to be any sort of effective punishment mechanism, just more of a nuisance and pointless annoyance that can be remedied by alt+tabbing or doing something else in r/l during the time, while stuff like minimap removal, auto-spotting removal, mobile spawn removal etc. actually impacted the game.

[CAS_117]

[quote=""'[R-CON"]Outlawz;991084']
As far as instant spawn on main bases goes, it would be good, but it would mean that once you are onto the enemy's last flag, they would be coming out of the base like zombies, imagine capturing the fortress on Muttrah and MEC keeps coming out of that little dead end suburb in waves, although it would kinda make sense that the further you go the more there should be.[/quote]

[quote="TheLean""]The flipside is of course that firebases would be hard to attack since people would spawn instantly which is bad for immersion and gameplay, atleast if you are not very close with 3 men since that negates the spawn. Perhaps players could spawn instantly in mainbase, 30second spawn at the FOB and 90 seconds at the rallypoints.[/quote]

I mean does it matter how long it takes for someone to bend the time space continuum? The idea is that you shouldn't see someone spawn.

If you get within 1-200m of a spawn it needs to shuts off. Either that we're playing "Project Alternate Reality: How M Theory Can be Applied to Modern Battlefields".

I'd up it to 300m actually. Secure Area -> then receive reinforcements. Think about how consolidated the team is after you lose all your flags, everyone dies, and then it gets recaptured. It really doesn't muddle with the ebb and flow of the battle too much either.

I do not support the "kill enemy disable spawn" idea. The two don't really relate to each other. In fact they cancel each other out. Why even have a spawn if can't use it when you die? Doesn't really make sense. Isn't the only time you need a spawn when you are dead? Reinforcements must be related to the security level of the area.

And let me reiterate: Remove rally points AND remove spawn times. The reason there are still spawn times is to prevent spam, and punish players. Well if the nearest enemy is over 2-300m away from the nearest spawn, then the spawn is disabled, you can't exactly spam lives at the enemy with much longevity.

And therefore the only other reason for a spawn time is for punishing players. So I must ask the question: do we want people playing the game? If no then the simple answer is to increase the spawn time until infinity because death is infinite and if spawn times = death then there is no theoretical limit on how long it should take. But if the answer is yes then it is superfluous and can be dropped. Don't tell me that a "balance" of spawn times must be reached because alt-tabbing or reaching for the book is always faster.

I don't support requiring 3 people to disable a spawn either. The fabric of space will work no matter how many opfor are witnessing a given piece of it.

------

Advantages of reinforcements from outpost: Its easier when there are no enemies around, you're defending, transports are dead, or your position cut off.

Reinforcements via transport: More precise, works when there are no spawns, slower, harder to do.

[=Romagnolo=]

hehe, fuzz's post wasnt that bad

[Teufel Eldritch]

Aye leave the Medics alone. It isn't the Medic that are causing the Rambo's to appear because most of the time ppl don't wait for a Medic to revive them. What is causing the Rambo-ness is the Rally Points. Why should a person lay there wounded/dead waiting for a Medic when they can just tap out & respawn at the RP?

[KSorrow]

But there's also an other reason for the rambostyle.

Many people (at least I think that) were still used to normal BF2 where you can jump into an horde of enemies and kill them all. I also had those moments in PR. But after some rounds I began to play in an other style. With better teamwork than with my Clan in Bf2 normal.

Maybe the people who never played in a team or a clan should start getting the idea of PR.
And maybe a clan can help them.

Yours,
KSorrow

[Jaymz]

Personally, I would like to see RP's removed and the current default spawn time lowered to 20 seconds (or left at 30 but with dying additions removed). Only spawn locations being mapper placed main spawn points and player built forward outposts.

[OkitaMakoto]

Id like to see them greatly reduced in efficiency[I think along what... Fuzz said?]

Seeing them more restricted to distances[must be X meters or closer to forward outposts] would be as good as[or slightly better than] having them totally removed, imo

Of course, this is coming from someone who hasnt played PR since last September, but it seems that once people get used to defending and building forward outposts, that they will be seen as the effective bases that they are. Especially now that we have the machine gun pits and better barbed wire to defend them...

[Freelance_Commando]

no RP's
longer respawns
medics only heal and not revive

This could be a new game type eh? REALITY GAME MODE

[666PROTECTOR]

OkitaMakoto;991927']Id like to see them greatly reduced in efficiency[I think along what... Fuzz said?]

Seeing them more restricted to distances[must be X meters or closer to forward outposts] would be as good as[or slightly better than] having them totally removed, imo

yea "+" for you

[CAS_117]

Personally, I would like to see RP's removed and the current default spawn time lowered to 20 seconds (or left at 30 but with dying additions removed). Only spawn locations being mapper placed main spawn points and player built forward outposts.

I still feel that the black screen really and timer just break the immersion factor significantly. If they are already going back to a base or firebase it doesn't really add anything practical. Its really just a nuisance. I doubt there people would care much about rally points if they could go straight to organizing getting back to their squad.

[Ojf]

I think the respawn times should be about 10 minutes and an extra minute for each death

[Jaymz]

I still feel that the black screen really and timer just break the immersion factor significantly. If they are already going back to a base or firebase it doesn't really add anything practical. Its really just a nuisance. I doubt there people would care much about rally points if they could go straight to organizing getting back to their squad.

I get what you're saying, but a fundamental flaw there is that attacking said firebase will be impossible because every defender you kill is going to be pouring back out of it instantaneously.

[CAS_117]

I get what you're saying, but a fundamental flaw there is that attacking said firebase will be impossible because every defender you kill is going to be pouring back out of it instantaneously.

Let me reiterate that the goal is that a player never sees an enemy spawn in combat. Ideally, I would love it if when a hostile gets within 200-250m (personally I would average all of the maps view distance but that's another story) of a spawner it shuts off. No reinforcements can spawn during a firefight.

So you aren't snapped out of the game world by:

A) Getting a black screen, and subsequent alt-tab.

B) Seeing a once dead fully armed baddie show up after you just killed your way through ten of his friends.

So firefights will make more sense, be more realistic, have no more waiting around in limbo, and most importantly, players can enter the game world and stay in it until they decide leave.