Convenient spawns, can we do without them?

[Wicca]

Its getting really complex with these systems.. But if it can be coded im for it.

I dont however support the spawn on capturable flags except for main.

I say keep the Rally, but as a rally, not as a point of spawn, but as a point of regroup or fallback. Make it give health to keep the woundend in chess until Medic arrives.

Also give the rally the ability to give ammo, but in the way that it loads for a long time, and then gives it all in one go. Like the overheat system. Let the rally overheat, but it will still have ammo, so you need to wait for a looong time for the HAT ammo.

And i think making FOBs will make the teamplay better, squads will always be there, wheter you can spawn on rallies or not.

[fuzzhead]

For what its worth - I agree with you Rudd, I think removing RP from PR would not be as big a change as some think, and would definitely up the realism factor, the teamwork factor and also the intensity of battles.

However many still think its too early (or never will be an option) in the cards for PR. To see how it could possibly play, do a round without setting RP's, play cautiously, like if you get shot that means your down for the rest of the round. I play like this lately, and often can go a whole round with only 1 or 2 deaths, same with the other members of my squad. Not to say that is everyones cup of tea, but is definitely possible and very intense when you do get into a firefight, because there is more on the line and you generally move alot more cautiously and with purpose, and not so careless to throw away your life for a kill (big problem I think in current player behavior)

[gazzthompson]

fuzz , whats the chances of running a locked server for a night with RP's disabled ? see how it plays out

[Rudd]

indeed Fuzzhead, but there are alot of good ideas from both sides of the idea in this thread. So happy to have a serious and enlightening gaming discussion for once

[vilhelm123]

You can't tell me the only reason you join a squad is to get access to their rallypoint. Sure, maybe when you're picking a squad that comes into consideration.

I don't consider it to be the only reason I should join a squad but the point remains that it is a major factor in squad mechanics in pr and for new players or people who normally solo the extra spawn is a major incentive.

But a good squad offers a whole lot more then just an alternate spawn. And so what if some people aren't in a squad?

Just because a player is squadless doesn't automatically make him a rambo who is unable to help the team. And with mumble being used now, single blues are a nice addition to a squad of 6.

Are you saying that having squadless players doesn't matter? In anycase squadless players are wasted slots, they cannot cap flags, cannot request kits, drive or fly anything of any particular granduer or be told things by the commander. Indeed in many repespects the infantry squad is the most important thing in pr and having squadless players seriously hampers the team effectiveness.
The mumble argument is largely defunct as well as from what I have heard the number of people using it has dropped and a player who hasn’t bothered to join a squad is unlikely to have bothered looking though the forums for how to install mumble.

fuzz , whats the chances of running a locked server for a night with RP's disabled ? see how it plays out

I'd be up for that. Certainly be insteresting to see how it would play out.

[HughJass]

why not, but only thing that holds you back is the maps. PR needs maps that can handle being rally-less.

[vilhelm123]

why not, but only thing that holds you back is the maps. PR needs maps that can handle being rally-less.

How would you make a map able to handle rally-less?

[ReaperMAC]

How would you make a map able to handle rally-less?

I would presume size to be one of the factors.

[Ace42]

I say do away with rally points, the community will adapt.

Keep making the game an increasingly tiresome drag and I'll adapt right into a different game, thanks.

[badmojo420]

Are you saying that having squadless players doesn't matter? In anycase squadless players are wasted slots, they cannot cap flags, cannot request kits, drive or fly anything of any particular granduer or be told things by the commander. Indeed in many repespects the infantry squad is the most important thing in pr and having squadless players seriously hampers the team effectiveness.
The mumble argument is largely defunct as well as from what I have heard the number of people using it has dropped and a player who hasn’t bothered to join a squad is unlikely to have bothered looking though the forums for how to install mumble.

So, 3 squadless players cannot cap a flag? Cool, i was not aware.

My argument is that just because a player is lacking a squad doesn't mean that player is a bad team player, or doesn't want to help out, or cannot follow simple instructions on installing mumble. It's this stereotyping that creates game mechanics that will actually hurt good honest team players when some situations arise.

Take a recent nilla noob turned PR player named 'Joe Rambo' now joe doesn't like having to work with a squad, he figures hes just as good by himself. So he neglects to join or create a squad, and wants to jump right into 'pwning some noobs' So he picks the only spawn available, the main base. Now, since all the other squads have rallies and don't need to use the transport vehicles, they're all sitting empty at the main, where our good friend Joe Rambo just spawned. Do you think he will decide that the right thing to do is leave these assets for squads who can use them properly and walk 10mins? Or will he jump in that humvee and ditch it when he gets into the action. Losing the team 10 tickets or abandoning an asset in enemy territory.

Now, if Joe could have either spawned on another squads rallypoint, or the team was defending a firebase, Joe could have spawned in closer to the action, and done his thing. Indirectly helping out the squads around him and helping defend the firebase itself. Because even Joe Rambo knows that with no firebase he'll be walking from the main if the firebase is lost.

Thats just one example of how this can affect the worst players. But even the best players can find themselves without a squad or rallypoint from time to time. Ever had your SL CTD? Ever joined a server and found 5 full squads leaving you squadless. The list goes on and on.

I just feel that we need to put more focus on the team effort, rather then the squads.

[badmojo420]

Keep making the game an increasingly tiresome drag and I'll adapt right into a different game, thanks.

Are you forgetting that we're playing a free mod? That threat only work when the developers main goal is making money.

[victor_phx]

I wish I had seen this discussion before.

Lately, my point is - I don't know if this has been thought about or mentioned before - rally points should be available for setting only in the vicinity of a Forward Outpost - the firebase.

And that translates in:

A: Offensive squads will be forced to use a much more realistic approach when attacking enemy positions; otherwise, they will be pushed back to the nearest place where part of the team is focused on defending

B: Squad leaders are going to have an extra stimulus in terms of establishing defenses, or rally points will not be available

C: Flags and control points in general will be more likely to have a more solid defense

D: This could smooth the issues related to players relying too much on their nearby respawn points, without forcing them back to the main base, extinguishing rally points nor increasing spawn time

The game could allow SLs to set rally points on distances up to 200m or so from the firebase.

[cyberzomby]

Just a quick reply on the people are forced to behave more realisticly: Means your kinda screwed with the BF2 engine. For instance: Clearing a bunker would be a no-go'er! In real life you can lean around corners, throw around a corner without exposing yourself, take a mirror from a car-dump so you can look around corners, look up stair-cases. Imagine a squad dug in a house or a cave somewhere. In real-life it would be freakin hard but here it would be impossible.

In arma you can at least lean around corners while here you have to expose your entire model.

Now Im interested to see where this goes and I would like to try it as well sometime but I think that for me personally it will take away the PR feeling. I always LOVE fighting over a flag. If you dont take out there RP and or FireBase you simply cant cap the flag. Its part of PR imo. Get in CAP-RADIUS fight the enemy, clear out there reinforcements and cap it.

I think PR can manage without but we will lose a good deal of people who wouldnt want to try. Games will "feel" and maybe even play even longer. Resulting in the loss of people who cant finish a game in there short-nights.

[PFunk]

The best test model would be limited spawn RPs and someway for the SL to keep track, a counter. Its a nice way to test without losing that all too necessary flow of troops to keep our stupidly small squad sizes active.

If we had squads of like 8 or 9 then we could suffer the attrition of a few guys dying but not with 6.

To those who doubt the average pubber, if the average pubbie can't adapt then we need to increase the average. Simple as that. We want a realistic game, and its no good to defend an unsatisfactory status quo in the name of conservative fears that we'll lose people.

If anything now is the time to do it since we're overflowing with newcomers so we can DEFINITELY absorb the attrition of adapting to a new and difficult game concept.

[IAJTHOMAS]

Another alternative would be not allowing RPs within 500m (or whatever) of an enemy held flag. Rallies could still be set on flags in your control or neutral flags. However, if a flag in your control/neutral is captured by the enemies, all of your teams rallies within this 500m radius are destroyed and you either have to pull back and regroup or start from a FB when you die.

Advantages:

• Limits the amount that spammy attack can be made on flags;
• Defender has the advantage in reinforcement which should come with territory;
• Repulsing an attack will be a more significant event and will allow some breathing space for defenders to reorganise, or require attackers to attack in greater force to keep pressure up. May help to simulate the defensive advantage which I don't feel is portrayed to its fullest in PR at the moment;
• Capturing a flag is more significant. It cleans the area of enemy rallies and exerts control over an area.
• Smaller maps made more FB dependant as potential rally locations will be limited. This means you'll come close to rally-less game play, but on maps where walking from FBs won't disrupt game play as much;
• RP placement on larger maps will still remain and be flexible;
• Interim step to total removal of rally points, will give an indication of the effect of more distant spawns on the game without their total removal. Can go for total removal if its felt its needed.

(Potential) Disadvantages:

• More walking
• May disrupt the 'flow of the game'
• Attacking is too difficult (although if defense is easier, it should take less people and free up people to attack)
• Only really works on AAS mode.
• May induce incessant whining and multipul threads involving capslock and lots of exclaimation marks on forums.
• I'm leaving/everyone's leaving/the end of PR/the apocalypse/judgement day etc. Maybe tweaking of skirmish mode might be the way forward for people with less time or patience to play this type of gamemode?

[fuzzhead]

May induce incessant whining and multipul threads involving capslock and lots of exclaimation marks on forums.
I'm leaving/everyone's leaving/the end of PR/the apocalypse/judgement day etc

happens with every 'major' gameplay change, and is usually why we keep these changes low key because we know its the apocalypse each time anything is changed, even though players adapt in a very rapid fashion and most are not even bothered by the change hehe

[Meester]

I consider rally points and firebases as a vital form of fabrication, that instead of fighting 32 players you are fighting more, due to respawning. I havn't got the exact word in my head at the moment (proxy?), but its making it seem that you are fighting more players than is actually the case. This is a good thing in my opinion.

[Anderson29]

i am able to visualize very interesting battles with this implemented. think about it....you got your attack sqd, ur defense sqd your armor sqd, your supply and transport sqd, and as commander say your attack sqd gets wiped out and they have to spawn in main...or a fob.....have the sqds rotate defense sqd moves out as reinforcements and respawning attack sqd becomes defense sqd....armor supporting them transport keeping the supply lines running maybe even needing an armor escort......trying to figure out where the enemy supple lines run...have snipers observer and report...formulate a plan and execute plan......would be very very interesting.....GOOD BYE rallies, Hello teamwork. i've hated rallies for a long time now and finally someone besides me suggests it and now we think it mite be a good idea.....man how times change....

[Axel]

I dunno, but the more I play PR the more I like to squad-up, get in the action or do some patrolling and whatnot, then go back to base for some more regrouping and reloading and get transported into combat/patrol missions again. I'm all for the RP removal.

Kinda hardens me for I'm about to go through real soon

[AnRK]

I dont however support the spawn on capturable flags except for main.

I meant you could only spawn on them when there was a firebase built on them, then remove the ability to build firebases anywhere else other then a certain distance away from some pre selected CPs. So you could only build firebases on CPs that were connected to roads near the edge of the map. My ideas kinda complex so maybe I should stick it in the suggestions forum.