Convenient spawns, can we do without them?

[Brood]

Rally points represent something that exists in reality, a defensive line and point of rendevous. In reality there would be more troops and organisation. Rally points keep things going, removing rally points would hamper gameplay and promote lone wolfing in transport vehicles.

If you want things to be that realistic, removing all metaphors, then go down to your local recruitment office and join the godamned forces.

[Rudd]

If you want things to be that realistic, removing all metaphors, then go down to your local recruitment office and join the godamned forces.

yea, we've already had that in the thread, k bai thnx.

If you don't want things to be realistic...try vbf2

[Brood]

yea, we've already had that in the thread, k bai thnx.

If you don't want things to be realistic...try vbf2

Way to twist my words.

I believe I was insinuating that rally points are a metaphor for something that exists in the real world. This game is full of them, the devs will likely tell you the same thing.

In all my time on the forums I've seen things like this numerous times. Removing a metaphor is, in some ways, making the game less realistic. Wrap your head around that one champ.

EDIT: Drop the "vbf2" insults, I've heard them all long before you did buddy.

[CAS_117]

All of what you said has been tried before in previous versions.

- 3 enemies 50 meters far from the rally will make it disappear immediately (this forces players to place rallies in safer locations, the 10 sec timer just isn't enough)

- This is currently ingame.

- Rally cannot be placed too close on enemy CP (200m on 1km maps, 350m on 2km maps and 500m on 4km maps, for insurgency uncappable insurgent flags on critical places like Al Basrah mosque would be good)

- Used to be about 200m on most maps until 0.75 or 0.8 I forget which.

- Put normal spawn time for rallies to 50 seconds, with a player near the rally reducing it by 15 seconds, up to 2 players (other spawn times should still be 30 sec, if it's just possible)

And if any changes will be made, the problem with reviving wounded (you have "search" for the right spot where you can revive him, happens if body moves after death) have to be fixed or amount of epipens increased. Just to avoid frustration.

Spawn times have been increased gradually over the last 6 or 7 releases. There has been no noticeable increase in players use of tactics or maturity. If anything it has gotten worse.

What does that tell you? It isn't the game itself that makes players act a certain way, its the third party outside influences. These include clans, the PR site, which server you play on, who you play with etc.

Am I lying? look at what happens when EA advertises PR on BF2? Vanilla players flood to PR (which I am simply not convinced is a bad thing. We were all noobs at one point). But the point is that whatever adding a 10 minute spawn for killing civillians might do for gameplay, it is dwarfed by a single texture being displayed.

My point is all these rules and limitations and punishments are so excessive and unnecessary.

[Rudd]

insults

not an insult mate, don't get me wrong. I certainly don't want ArmA-PR.

In all my time on the forums I've seen things like this numerous times. Removing a metaphor is, in some ways, making the game less realistic. Wrap your head around that one champ.

Please do read this thread mate, I'm not sold on the idea of removing the RPs. But I wanted to discuss it, and there are ALOT of great ideas in this thread. Its not a simple case of "remove, keep, realistic, unrealistic"

Lets keep the discussions going and light hearted

[Zi8]

Yes, we can do. Remove rallies and firebases. Maps like Fools Road, Karbala & Ramiel will be a blast

[fubar++]

You don't need to entirely remove the rally points, you can change them. Make it like real RP, with ammo resupply, some kit selections, maybe small CCP with healing capacity, you name it. But do you really need the spawn point there?

[AnRK]

If rallies were to be removed as a spawn altogether something like that would be good, as long as they run out of ammo and healing ability (they used to run out of ammo if I remember correctly) then that'd be good. Only problem used to be simply putting another down when one ran out of ammo so you essentially got a resupply every couple of minutes for H-AT etc, if there was some way of making it so the SL had to reload it like supply trucks have to reload ammo crates that'd be good, although I be that's hardcoded.

[Ace42]

What does that tell you?

People want to *play* PR; not Role Play...

My point is all these rules and limitations and punishments are so excessive and unnecessary.

You can lead a horse to water... People often refer to "waves of vBF2 new players" flooding in with every release - how many stick around?

Its hard to take those changes to the revive system into account when we have no idea how exactly it will be changed. So i based my opinion solely off adding this to the current system.

Sensible, but in the suggestions forum a dev pretty much said it was going to be: one revive per player before perm-death; possibly removing medikit in favour of a limited number of field-dressing like bandages. Not gospel truth, but I got the impression that was the direction.

so i saw first hand how civies were acting in a way that wasn't realistic. Basically throwing themselves in front of any gun fire they saw. Hell, i even jumped in and had some fun being the human shield. It wasn't the way i wanted to play, but it worked in the constraints of the game.

Indeed, and it had the REALISTIC side effect of meaning that APCs and tanks couldn't just roll straight through a city and unleash machine guns indiscriminately on squads.

But, since the increased spawn time, i've seen the collaborator used in the way i originally (when i first started playing) thought it was going to be used.

With a telescope or something? I see maybe one civvy per team per INS game, usually that's me, and I meat-shield it up anyway because no matter HOW you play civvy, you're gonna get shot by the coalition forces - so you may as well piss the hell out of them in the process.

And the unrealistic human shields are barely used.

The class is "barely" (understatement of the year) used. I've already analysed the problem in depth elsewhere, and I completely disagree that the spawn time was a "right move". The penalisation to civvies is indiscriminate, it has NO bearing on whether they're being a meat-shield, or fall off a roof, or get sniped from miles and miles away, etc etc. Any benefit you perceive is purely a coincidental side-effect of the fact that no-one wants to go near them.

Now, tell me, is there any way you can see that civvies would deter an APC gunner from using the coax to snipe every single member of his squad around him, leaving him the only man standing ready to get arrested?

'cause I don't see that as "realistic", coalition forces in armour / etc shooting into a crowd with civilians in it to try and "pick off" the insurgents.

That's what happens now, because of game limitations, and personally I saw suicidal civvies as balancing this unrealistic recklessness out.

[AnRK]

You can lead a horse to water... People often refer to "waves of vBF2 new players" flooding in with every release - how many stick around?

I'm not gonna go through the whole post, but I've played PR for 2 years and there has been pretty sustained growth in player numbers overall through large changes. Obviously fluctuations occur with new releases etc but the numbers are going up in general.

[Ace42]

I'm not gonna go through the whole post, but I've played PR for 2 years and there has been pretty sustained growth in player numbers overall through large changes. Obviously fluctuations occur with new releases etc but the numbers are going up in general.

I appreciate that. Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about overall trends; but about the specific phenomenon of "novelty" joiners who then leave. I was pre-emptively challenging the assumption that the majority of these "vBF2 noobs" develop into community members - rather than (hyperbole) all leaving again back to other games. The unrelated gradual increase in playerbase (due mainly, IMO due to a more polished product and dedication from the community) is kinda beside the point I was making.

[Wicca]

Allright ive read what you have wrote.

Now, i misunderstood someone about something something flag spawn... Sorry.
I agree, we can only build FOBs inside flags radius, good idea.

Now as ive said before, removing Rallies will give us a new thing, people wont give up while wounded, cause they know that if they do that, they gotta walk aaaaaaaaaaaall that way back again. And transport will be usefull again, i know funny

Now this means that, people will act more carefull about their life, or they have to walk, so for anyone who wants to bang me on the fact that someone is carefull, listen to this:
Man walks stupidly infront of enemy, man dies, man walks faaaaar to the same place and repeats the same mistake.... If he keeps repeating it, and hates the game for it... Then he shouldnt play it... Simple... Like GWB said "you fool me once, shame on you, you fool me twice... YOU AINT GONNA FOOL ME TWICE, IM F`ING LEAVING!!!!!"

So, i personally, Wicca think that we should remove the RP spawn point. There i said it! I think personally its the best choice, although the fact that you need to have 3 ppl to be around the rally to spawn and the ammo and medic stuff was interesting, its not what this game needs, its just going to complicate it, or make people take advantages of "Glitches" in a new way. So Remove RALLY POINTS!

But i disagree with CAS, on lowering the spawn time to 3 seconds or something, altho he might just be making some sort of point, CAS is pretty complex, keep the spawn time as it is.

Ace you speak really complex... its scares me, i mean you speak like you had an IQ of 200... Pretty scary, i cant understand half the stuff your saying, which makes me stupid...

And Devs, dont listen to people who rant about: AAAAH IM GOING TO STOP PLAYING PR IF THE DO THIS!!!!

Im going to stay with you, even if you turn this into a ball of yarn, and i bet ill find that amusing.

So, Rudd this is really interesting, this is what i belive is really cool so far.


FOBs only in flag radius.

And no Rallies.

Thats what i agree on

[McBumLuv]

I really like these suggestions, empowering FOBs and giving their defense much more substance.

I think rallies should still have some usefulness, which without their ability to hand out kits, they'll have lost it. I don't want to see them act as rearming stations (which could easily be spammed), but they need to carry some advantages. Should they act as kit request systems, but become more limited in their emplacement? I don't think so.

On the other hand, their model could remain completely useless, since it was only a representation of a rendez-vous on the map and a gamey substitute for the lack of players. We could simp[ly have it become a marker in-game, rather than or in addition to the "move" marker.

[Freelance_Commando]

Should they act as kit request systems, but become more limited in their emplacement? I don't think so.

I'd agree on that one, you shouldnt' be able to request kits otherwise you'll have some one request a HAT kit, use up the ammunition and then request another kit to keep on going.

(I was going to mention people requesting kits with ammo packs so they could reload, but since that's been removed I've got nothing......)

Personally, I'm concerned with my attitude when I play, that is "fight unto death" and then just respawn so I can do the same thing again. If we throttled the RP's so squad members were needed to be in close proximity to spawn, it would encourage disengagement as it benefits the squad (or necessary) to "live to fight another day".

PLUS this would make the Fire base the staging point for assaults, rather than a fall back option for spawning when the rally goes down.

[badmojo420]

Sensible, but in the suggestions forum a dev pretty much said it was going to be: one revive per player before perm-death; possibly removing medikit in favour of a limited number of field-dressing like bandages. Not gospel truth, but I got the impression that was the direction.

Right, and i've heard of changes that were supposed to be in future versions, and when it comes out, coding problems or whatever reason prevented the change from actually happening. I'm just saying, we can't go by what might be changed, we can only go by what is actually in place. Besides even if they do get that system working, who can actually comment on how it would work(or how it relates to other proposed changes) until it's released? Maybe a beta tester, but not your average forum goer.

About the whole civie spawn time thing. It didn't create balance and it wasn't realistic in .75 when half the team was throwing themselves into the line of fire.

It is true that civilians have been used as human shields in real life. But that's way different then THROWING themselves at gunfire, just so the coalition will be punished.

And you talk about how real coalition forces will try to pick out the insurgents. But, how many videos have you seen of an apache blowing the shit outta a bunch of guys because they had weapons. Do you ever see them saying "Oh look, that guy on the right has no weapon, better leave him alone" never, because they're collaborating with the insurgents. They're guilty by association.

Sure, they're not going to start firing into a crowded street just because they saw one guy with an AK. But the battlefields in PR arn't exactly busy cities. They're places where ongoing fighting has been happening. There are few or no civilians, and the unarmed people you see are actually insurgent collaborators.

I'm going to stop there, i'm sick of discussing this topic over and over, and it's not even relevant to the thread.

[badmojo420]

removing rally points would hamper gameplay and promote lone wolfing in transport vehicles.

WTF? If anything, rally points promote lone wolfing, since a guy with no squad will have to spawn at the main. And with nobody else spawning there, he'll have all the transport vehicles to himself. But i already said this in a previous post. Did you even read the thread? Or just the OP?

[Durandal]

I love the rally point system. I thought it was one of the coolest things about PR when I started playing. Especially since its limited by the SL having to have a SL kit, having 2 other squad members, and the squad members coordinating enough to be close to the SL. I really don't see too many rally points around anymore anyways. I think it works just fine for the infantry squads that use them wisely.

[Rudd]

Personally, I'm concerned with my attitude when I play, that is "fight unto death" and then just respawn so I can do the same thing again. If we throttled the RP's so squad members were needed to be in close proximity to spawn, it would encourage disengagement as it benefits the squad (or necessary) to "live to fight another day".

thats a good point

[Orthas]

Personally, I'm concerned with my attitude when I play, that is "fight unto death" and then just respawn so I can do the same thing again. If we throttled the RP's so squad members were needed to be in close proximity to spawn, it would encourage disengagement as it benefits the squad (or necessary) to "live to fight another day".

This is exactly what can be achieved if rally points need the remaining members of squad regroup for others to spawn. The downside of removing rallys as many have said is the gameplay reasons of having only 32p per side. There needs to be balance between gameplay and realism. Without rallys there is the problem of waiting for 5 minutes every time someone dies for him to get back from main. This is no problem in organized play but public servers seldom achieve the level of organization needed for this to be fun.

Maybe one solution would be to have both options, CnC would benefit greatly from having rally points removed but AAS could still retain them, though I fully agree that large changes are needed. In addition to having the squad actually rally to reinforce rally points could be further limited. Maybe make it possible to make rally points only within certain distance of supplies or something like that. Would give logistics a completely new role. And in my proposal transports will also be utilized more because if a squad gets wiped completely, they'd need to spawn further away.

Generally speaking, the main problem I see in removing rally points is that especially the bigger maps will be very empty. But these are all questions which will change the game and it is a conscious choice of developers to decide where they want to take this mod.