@ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

[fuzzhead]

So CAS if you feel like it you can finish your revive discussion here so its seperate from the spawn time / rallypoint thing.

Just a friendly discussion about gameplay philosophy and player behavior, I see nothing wrong with some good discussion about ideas.

I don't wanna get side tracked so @ all the medic stuff, medics reviving needs to go.

Okay fair enough, leave the medic revive discussion for a different thread, but needless to say I disagree with you, reviving is a critically important element in PR and I think removing it would bring the game to a much more deathmatch like state. Even games like ACE ArmA have a revive system, and seeing that game played with revives and without I can tell you teamwork is increased greatly with a revive system. I wouldn't be against trying PR without respawns for a release, but I am pretty sure that the result would be mostly negative in the fact that squad cohesion would be much lower than current.

so care to elaborate?

[Alex6714]

Out of curiosity, if I may reply here, why will teamwork disappear if reviving goes?

I know I would work in a team if I was´t revivable, as would many others.

Just curious.

Edit: Would it not actually increase, making medics more important to heal you before you bled out? Making you when you do die need the help of other squads and transport etc to get back to your squad, even perhaps needing them to regroup numbers at the rally?.

[General_J0k3r]

@alex: if you have the current damage settings there's a good chance you'll die/get critically wounded pretty quickly. if you remove the revive everyone who gets shot will have to walk from rally/fb. there goes squad cohesion. atm it's kinda doable to keep a squad together. would be near impossible on pubs without the revive (unless you get SL spawning back which I think will never happen )

[Alex6714]

Plenty of times have I been shot yet I actually ducked and hid, bleeding out. Need to get rid of that rambo Ill stick my head up anyway thinking.

But anyway, if revives did not go, then I think it would be safe to increase it to 1 shot kill most of the time then? 2-3 shots to kill + the ability to be revived afterwards is a bit too much imo. You still have to add in latency and hitbox issues.

[$kelet0r]

I've pretty much wanted reviving gone since day one - it's just so 'gamey'. One of the main things it hurts is the concept of falling back and regrouping - in PR still, the gameplay mechanics continue to reward 'forward at all cost' attack only mentality, because half-wiping out an enemy squad only slows them down, rather than eliminating that particular threat.

[CAS_117]

will reply when I get back.

[Tim270]

I think its fine as it is... I mean it is somewhat realistic to be able to find soldiers that have been shot, are unconscious but still alive. The ultimate awesomeness would be, at least for the conventional teams, would be to revive someone and then they have say 2 mins to live and they have to medevac back to main and go inside a tent or 'hospital' for a little while until they are healed and able to return to duty. But this would require a dedicated medevac vehicle, which would get overwhelmed with calls all the time i guess, and it would split squads up.

[Zi8]

Well, how about tweaking the current revive&heal system a bit (if its possible):

Make the actual revive process much more longer. The current one is "hit with epipen & crawl for safety, heal and ready to fight in 15 seconds". How about the medic fiddling around with his medic bag/instruments and then the fallen one revives. This should take more time than current system

Then increase the healing time from the medics back or make it depleted after x amount of healing so its not a infinite source for health. And this can be reloaded somewhere later.

There could be a issue with the field dressings but this is just an idea

[cyberzomby]

I agree on Rhino with this. If you remove reviving than you lose squad cohesion. Even in games like COD search and destroy It always feels like: Who has the best luck or aiming skills. Its not that hes a better player or tactician but because he got a better spot earlier than you.

With the reviving system you get up again and have a chance to outwit your opponent. Falling back is very alive in a revive system. If you keep getting revived and keep getting shot, you cant convince me that theres no purpose of falling back. Its simple. If you cant win a fight you fall back and try to catch the enemy there or flank them from your falling back point.

With a system with no revives your fallback move will be: Oh shit! We lost half our squad, fall back and wait for them to regroup. Chances are that when you need to fall back the enemy has a better squad or position so theres not much else to do than this right?

[{UK}Suzeran]

) R still, the gameplay mechanics continue to reward 'forward at all cost' attack only mentality, because half-wiping out an enemy squad only slows them down

totally agree

Make the actual revive process much more longer. The current one is "hit with epipen & crawl for safety, heal and ready to fight in 15 seconds

also true i wana know what the hell is the point of revive hands is it just a half finished concept? all i can do is jog a person around a little like a attempt at carry rescues in a engine where u cannot do them.

dedicated med evac would be great but not with 32 players a team, and most of them not communicating through commander or text you see??!!! We may as well have a cooks kit

The forward at all costs mentality needs a little trweekage inmy opinion though

[Rudd]

The next changes to the medic class the Jaymz have said will make reviving more realistic.

The revive for me is a parody of dragging a wounded comrade to cover,
the problem is hwat happens after that, healing like we have now seems the only gameplay option

[Alex6714]

With the reviving system you get up again and have a chance to outwit your opponent. Falling back is very alive in a revive system. If you keep getting revived and keep getting shot, you cant convince me that theres no purpose of falling back. Its simple. If you cant win a fight you fall back and try to catch the enemy there or flank them from your falling back point.

You lost that time. It happens. How many chances do you need?

With a system with no revives your fallback move will be: Oh shit! We lost half our squad, fall back and wait for them to regroup. Chances are that when you need to fall back the enemy has a better squad or position so theres not much else to do than this right?

Welcome to reality? Next time you attack with better tactics or with other squads support.


You could substitute guns for potato guns shooting bananas and epipens for bars of chocolate and teamwork would be good, but it hardly feels like your playing a war game.

Big exaggeration, but thats what I am trying to get at. Speaking seriously here, is it project reality, or project teamwork? Why does realism =/= teamwork?

[Majorpain]

Few things:

PR is still a little bit of "charge at the enemy and kill as many of them as possible".

1. Remove revives and also remove ticket loss from people dying.

*Dying becomes less of an issue of tickets and more of lost ground. If you die and are forced to respawn at a firebase 500 meters away, the enemy will take the little flag you just died at and push forward on the map.

2. Change the maps to lots of little flags spread all over the map.

*Comm has to assign a squad to defend multiple flags, as otherwise they will just be flanked and cutoff
*Promotes the idea of a "frontline", instead of people zig zagging all over the map in different directions

3. More off map support

so that if you see 2 enemy squads grouped together on a flag its not "great, lets put down an RP, find and kill theirs, and charge at them" and rather "Hello comm, i have 2 enemy squads here, can i have some mortars?". In reality you should have an advantage of 3 to 1 to attack an enemy position, its currently more: "Enemy? Great! Open fire and Charge!". Forcing people who die to respawn further away will force the attacking force to have an advantage in manpower or else they will just get slaughtered!

4. Possibly remove rally points? Possibly contraversial so ill explain:

*RP's promote "human wave" attacks where dying isnt an issue as you will respawn within 200 meters anyway.
*This makes defensive positions pointless as you already know where the enemy is and can just flank them.
*If Firebases are changed to give Kits again then it promote the use of kits other than medic and occasional SAW/Gren/Marksman
*Slows down gameplay as you dont want to rush towards the enemy and be forced to respawn back at the FB.

5. Notes on Commander
*Will have something to do now he has to organise people to defend the lots of little flags on the map, as well as deciding if he wants to group together a few squads and attack the enemy
*Really need to get out and about on the map, i dont care how important he is, no-one wants to waste 2 hours of their life staring at BF2 comm screen!
*Could maybe have a Commander Vehicle that acts as a respawn point, costs 15 tickets and 10 mins to respawn if killed?

[General_J0k3r]

I think as long as the game is about flags and the mechanic is such that you need more people than the enemy on it - and as long as there are tickets - there will be no way that killing the enemy is not the primary objective. On maps without a bleed it's naturally the primary objective anyways (for lack of the necessity to take flags). Barracuda on USMC springs to mind. You will usually not be able to cap out the enemy but you have to achieve a better K/D than they got.

If one had more objective based gameplay, like say blow sth up, take this or that position, whatever, then a one-life no revive setup would make sense. In ArmA it's the same. You would usually do a Coop mission in a no respawn setup and in this mission have to achieve a certain objective usually as opposed to taking out as many enemies as you can (at least that's the most enjoyable approch to no-respawn setups in my opinion). So my point is that this kind of setup would be needed to do away with killing the enemy as primary objective.

You want to make people more afraid of dieing? Up the possibility of a deadly shot (as in not revivable) and there you go. Have this possibility even if hit in the foot.

[Majorpain]

On the issue of teamwork....

If the enemy has 3 guys sitting around a position and you have 6 assualting it, here are a few examples with different rules introduced:

Current method:

Put down an RP and go with 3 medics getting as close as possible before using your numbers to overwhelm them. Anyone who gets shot either gets revived, or spawns at the RP 100 meters away and runs back into the fight with a full ammo load. You win the fight but there is little point as the enemy still has another squad 300 meters away on the other side of the flag.

No revive rule and lots of small flags introduced:

RP put down, squad is now more balanced with SAW/Gren/Marksman in place of 3 medics. SL notices 3 man position on the small flag and places SAW/Gren/Marksman to provide cover fire on position whilst other 3 (including single medic) run forward. 3 Guys on the position dont take much notice of cover fire as they know they will respawn at RP, 2 die from cover fire group and respawn 60 secs later at RP 100 meters away and run back to fight. Last Guy on small flag is killed by SL assualting group and 2 guys who died earlier now start to engage the assualting group on the flag.

No revive rule, Lots of small flags and no RP rule introduced:

SL notices 3 man position on small flag and sends SAW/Gren/Marksman to position to provide cover fire. Other 3 crawl forward so they aint spotted. Support group of SAW/Gren/Marksman open up and 3 Enemies decide its better to hide than try and fight lest they have to respawn at that FB 500 meters away! Whilst the support group keeps the enemies heads down, the other group approaches the position and stards nading it to death. Enemies put down fire but eventually all die and are forced to respawn at the FB and move out to another flag to defend.

It might not play out like this, Enemy comm might put down mortar fire on the flag as the friendlies attack it killing them and saving the flag, or another enemy squad might make an appearence.

You do have to ask yourself which needs more teamwork:

"Oh **** i died, can you revieve me? No? Ill just respawn at RP then"
or
"Make sure you put down fire so they dont put their heads up and kill us"

[Alex6714]

Well said and a good way of explaining it. This is kind of what I have been trying to get at but I fail at explaining.

You do have to ask yourself which needs more teamwork:

"Oh **** i died, can you revieve me? No? Ill just respawn at RP then"
or
"Make sure you put down fire so they dont put their heads up and kill us"

Especially this part. It also feels more realistic. Two birds with one stone.

[Majorpain]

I think as long as the game is about flags and the mechanic is such that you need more people than the enemy on it - and as long as there are tickets - there will be no way that killing the enemy is not the primary objective.

Remove the large flags, point penalty for dying and simply force people to spawn further away so they value their life more.

On maps without a bleed it's naturally the primary objective anyways (for lack of the necessity to take flags). Barracuda on USMC springs to mind. You will usually not be able to cap out the enemy but you have to achieve a better K/D than they got.

Quite. If the PLA had to defend (say) 10 flags and not the 3 they have now they will find it much harder to keep the US at bay. The US will also be able to use off map support to stop the PLA using the current tactic of having 30 people on one flag!

If one had more objective based gameplay, like say blow sth up, take this or that position, whatever, then a one-life no revive setup would make sense. In ArmA it's the same. You would usually do a Coop mission in a no respawn setup and in this mission have to achieve a certain objective usually as opposed to taking out as many enemies as you can (at least that's the most enjoyable approch to no-respawn setups in my opinion). So my point is that this kind of setup would be needed to do away with killing the enemy as primary objective.

I completely agree with you here, if you remove the incentive to go kill everything that moves and give people something else to do (capture flags to win the game) then they wont be so keen to run off by themselves as they will achieve bugger all!

You want to make people more afraid of dieing? Up the possibility of a deadly shot (as in not revivable) and there you go. Have this possibility even if hit in the foot.

Well, nearly agreed with everything you wrote. Whilst there is some cover the game, its nothing like in real life due to hardware issues. Punishing people for this is abit harsh IMO

[cyberzomby]

The revive hands are there to solve a bug where the body gets stuck in terrain. In .75 we needed to throw a field dressing below them to unstuck them. Now we can just use the hands and eppi away!

And Alex: I get your points but dont forget that PR is also aiming for gameplay. If you want all that you should go for Arma and the likes. I think that thats even the official dev standpoint, altough Im not sure. I agree with you on a hard-core milsim game but not on PR. With no revive Im just afraid that PR will fall in the Search and destroy gameplay where squads just camp positions and insta-kill everyone who comes up.

And MajorPain: Nice example but it a bit biased towards your oppinion. The first examples with res's and RP's NEVER plays out that way on our [T&T] server. Its exactly the same as the third example. Keep fire on them to keep there heads down while we try to flank them or get close enough for grenades in the windows. I can just as easily write a cheesy story about a bit of gameplay where you dont get to respawn and have no rally's dissing those 2 choices. < Might come of harsh but I dont mean it that way

[BroCop]

On the issue of teamwork....

If the enemy has 3 guys sitting around a position and you have 6 assualting it, here are a few examples with different rules introduced:

Current method:

Put down an RP and go with 3 medics getting as close as possible before using your numbers to overwhelm them. Anyone who gets shot either gets revived, or spawns at the RP 100 meters away and runs back into the fight with a full ammo load. You win the fight but there is little point as the enemy still has another squad 300 meters away on the other side of the flag.

May you please tell me where in this mod have you ever seen a situation like that... you can hardly get one medic in a squad (especially now with a whole bunch of newbies who still got the vBF2 mentality of going forward....as explained in previous post, oh and this is the main reason why we got the "forward at all costs" mentality not the revivability). Not even in squad full of good players you wont find more than 1 medic (maybe in some cases you'll see 2 of em)


as I said... lots of promotion for this version spawned a total bunch of vBF2 players playin this mod and still got the run'n'gun mentality. Thats the reason why we got players running forward instead of falling back.