why will teamwork disappear if reviving goes? I know I would work in a team if I was´t revivable, as would many others. Would it not actually increase, making medics more important to heal you before you bled out? Making you when you do die need the help of other squads and transport etc to get back to your squad, even perhaps needing them to regroup numbers at the rally?.
Well we wont know what truly would happen unless we try it out, so most of this discussion is just pure speculation. But we can look at other games for an example. ArmA without revives is alot worse off. Left4Dead without revives would be nearly unplayable. Wolfenstein Enemy Territory has a unique revive system that I think works well. These games arent like PR, but they do have a central focus like PR: teamwork. Check out the following games without revive systems: Insurgency, Red Orchestra, Call of Duty 4, Forgotten Hope 2, Resistance & Liberation... all these games without revive, and honestly I think most of them suffer from a clear lack of teamwork. Obviously there is other factors why they arent as great for teamwork, but I think missing that revive system is a key factor.
Saying teamwork will "disappear" I think is being a bit dramatic. Will teamwork and tactics evolve and become more realistic and coordinated, or relapse and turn back to more arcade like behavior?? I think it tactics and teamwork will decrease, heres some reasoning taken from the other thread:
Forcing a player to appear somewhere else immediately upon dying breaks a large part of immersion on the player I think.
Right now, when a player is shot on the ground with his squad, he is in a "bleedout" state and gets to see the last moments of his virtual life waiting out for that revive, he is right there to witness either his squads demise or their success in winning the firefight where he was wounded. If the squad is successful, he usually is revived and brought back to a fighting condition (yes this should last longer than it does now I agree, but cant happen with the way RP and fast spawning currently behave), if they fail then he is regrouping back with the whole squad at a point the SL designates.
- Without a revive, a player spawning back at base / firebase / rp is less likely to regroup with the squad if they are a distance away, and more likely to walk towards whatever is current interest (empty vehicle, some shooting going on, etc). the player will get in the first available vehicle and make his way into the battlefield - like has been said, the player wants to play the damn game, not sit around idle all day at base waiting for the squad to die. if there is no vehicle he will probably start walking.
- having such a brutal combat environment (die with no respawn / lets say no RP) means as a squad leader, you need to have your shit EXTREMELY well together if you intend to run a well disciplined squad that follows orders. If you slip up one second and get someone killed, the guy that got killed is much less likely to follow your orders in the future. There is no saving grace, he got killed and its your fault, and damned if he wants to walk all the way back from base again just to get killed again because you gave him a poor order. With the current revive system, its much easier to gain the trust of your squad. This is very important in a public game as you may not have ever played with the guys in your squad before and getting them to trust your judgment and follow your orders is usually a difficult task already in the current game, but many players are successful at this.
- on a typical server with little organization, you will still see "streaming" players coming one by one from the spawnpoints, because they are not going to wait to regroup and will move out soon after spawning.
- revives I feel are an alternative approach to "spawning" ie: neither reviving or spawning is realistic, but reviving increases the need for teamwork whereas spawning does not involve any teamwork or reliance on squad members, but simply rewards individual choice and a carefree attitude and the team wide situation.
- revives add a very basic approach to the real life time consuming process of treating combat casualties in a warzone. Although its only barely touched upon in PR with the current system, its better than completely abandoning/ignoring the wounded IMO. For example, right now a team that does not abandon their wounded over a team that does abandon their wounded will generally be in better shape ticket wise anyways.
- by removing revive, you would probably see instead of 1 or 2 medics per squad (currently the norm) you would see 1 or 2 medics per team, and they would almost always be using the kit to heal themselves when they get shot rather than helping any teammates. I fear the Medics would simply turn into an assault class cause they can take a few more bullets and keep going (this is a common behavior of medics in other games I have observed).
- no squad revive means there is much less encouragement to move and fight as a squad/unit. For me personally, I know I can fight more effectively as an individual, sneaking and flanking an enemy position, its just easier with 1 guy to be sneaky and come in on the right angle. But what happens when this is the regular behavior of most players on the battlefield? 64 players moving individually, sneaking and flanking on their own accord - no regard for tactics, formations, communication or care for their team mates - the first and last thing on everyones minds is killing the enemy - basically team deathmatch. I feel that attempting to use some kind of real life tactics like suppression, fire and movement, fireteams, will more than likely be disastrous and just plain not effective if revives are out of the equation. Now its debateable whether this is already the norm on most servers (players just running around randomly like team deathmatch), but certainly the current revive system ALLOWS real life tactics and organization to be largely successful if used at the right moments. I feel if the changes above were implemented (no RP, low or no respawn time, no revive) then using real life tactics and organization skills would not be much benefit to just run and gunning, whoever gets the luck shot in first and trying to organise pub players would simply be unfeasible.
CroCop wrote:you can hardly get one medic in a squad (especially now with a whole bunch of newbies who still got the vBF2 mentality of going forward....as explained in previous post, oh and this is the main reason why we got the "forward at all costs" mentality not the revivability). Not even in squad full of good players you wont find more than 1 medic (maybe in some cases you'll see 2 of em)
Agree with you about this... I don't ever see a horde of medics, and actually dont regularly see alot of revives to begin with. If an enemy are reviving and are exposed (have not won the firefight) they are fresh meat and easy kills...
I don't think current medic/revive system is a deciding factor in a battle - nor should it be. I do think that it helps along teamplay especially for new squad leaders and pub players, and causes a players behavior to group together (realistic) and care for wounded (realistic), without revives some of these good player behaviors would not be present.
Keep in mind the new medic changes that Jaymz already posted about (limited 1 medic per squad, can only revive a player once every 60 seconds) I think the medics revive will be sorted out to avoid any "medic spam" that could be happening in game currently (though I rarely see it myself).
