@ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

[ChiefRyza]

I think it should be a bit more than 60 seconds.....That is the amount of time it takes to run around the corner, get fully healed again by the medic, then run back around the corner and do it all over again. At least 2 or more minutes - or I feel it isn't going to make much of a difference in an intense firefight. If you can't move up their squad is still going to be revived as long as they wait that measly 60 seconds.

[fuzzhead]

60 seconds is an example of the timer default in the system, this can easily be altered in future versions and may or may not be the final time.... either way, we cant know how to actually affects gameplay until implemented and played for several weeks in a pub server.

I think not many realize how limited ONE medic per squad will be... the medics job is going to be living hell if you are rushing things

[cyberzomby]

ooh yea! That will be tough. Usually the squad Im in starts out with one medic but halfway trough when the fighting starts we switch over to 2 'cause I cant cope with the huge ammount of body's and healing! So I can only guess how its going to be when we cant decide: Yeap! Lets switch over to 2.

[Freelance_Commando]

...the medic kit disappearing almost immediately....

Why stop at the medic kit? I've found that people are more concerned that they will loose their kits when they die and will call on others to take theirs so they don't loose them. If you really want people not (who have special kits) to give in instantly and not wait for a revive, that's an easy way of doing so.

As for the revive system I don't believe that revives should be removed as this would take away much of the gaming experience of being a medic. Personally it only makes a game more frustrating when death is the final call, as with Forgotten Hope 2, with no hope of continuing. You'll only see more of the respawn timer than actual gameplay.

If anything, head shots for all weapons should be lethal. This would give the advantage to anyone whole those in a more advantageous position, making medics more vulnerable or anyone else who has been downed. Eg you've taken down an enemy, now you simply camp the body, head shoting the man when he is revived, thus removing him from play.

In any case it is ironic than twas only in .6 or .7 where people were complaining that Medic was not a useful class anymore in terms of combat. My how the world changes.....

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

I've decided to add my "2 cents" in to this thread because some of the radical suggestions in this thread makes me open my eyes in disbelief and shout "this is madness!"

[a wall of text, please read all carefully before quoting me ]


Introduction
PR is a mod for BF2 engine, which (as far as we all know) wasn't made for milsim but for arcade shooter. Whatever will be done to this mod will never get rid of bf2 heritage. It's impossible. Making PR some kind of hardcore realistic milsim with the current game engine is pointless, it will never be 100% realistic... but we can make it more realistic then bf2 within engine limitations.


Realism and PR being realistic
Some of you may say this or that is "unrealistic" and it must go... but how a computer game can be realistic in the first place? Even real military simulators are not 100% realistic because nothing can be as real as reality.... and what does it mean that a game is realistic anyway?
PR, just like any other computer game can be divided in to couple key aspects like: graphics, sounds, game physics, gameplay, effects, etc, etc. When every game aspect reflects it's real life counterpart then we can say the game is "realistic" (as realistic as a game may be). The problem starts when it's impossible to reflect a real life counterpart of an aspect in a realistic way due to the game engine limits (or the nature of computer game itself). That's when the compromise between realism and computer game limitations appear.
That's why some aspects of PR are not "realistic" but "gamey"... a compromise has been made to keep some aspects close to realism as possible and preserve the balance between other aspects at the same time.


"Medic problem"... is it real?
Judging from the first post in this thread (and the title, duh ) I assume it's mainly about removing revive system.
I'm playing PR since 0.5 and most of the time I have been playing as a medic (or engie) until PR 0.8 came out. Currently I play as "whatever kit is needed at the moment" but it still happens very often to see me with a medic kit
I never thought there is a problem with current medic and revive system... really
I can understand someone's frustration when he/she wipes out enemy squad and then medic comes out, kill him/her (or smoke area) and then picks up whole squad and heal in couple minutes. I can understand that, but there are always two sides of every story. It also happens the opposite (and it happens quite often).... whole squad is down, medic is trying to eliminate threat and pick up his team mates but gets shot by a guy with a scope or owned by frag grenade.... it also happens very often but I can't see posts like "OMG, I JU5T WTFPWNED WHOLE SQUAD & TAHT M3DIC WITH MY HAXOUR FRAGS, LOLZ !!!111!! ONEONEONE!!1111ELEVEN1111!!"....Obviously there are none of them, people don't post about things that turned out just right (well, maybe you could find some in the PR tales from the front forum section but it doesn't count because it's not a suggestion or feedback). There are usually posts with complains like "OH NOEZ, I PWNED 5 GUYZ BUT L33T OVERPOW3R3D MEDIC HAXOR H3ADSHOTED ME AND PICKUP THOSE 5 GUYZ IN 10 SEC!!!! WHEREZ MY KILLZZ????!!!ONE111ONE!!!"
My point is, do not use subjective posts as a valuable feedback because there are always two sides of the same story, and some people can't see from other perspective then their own (no offence to anyone)
IMO there is nothing wrong with the current reviving system. I like it as it is and I think that reviving is a key part of a gameplay. Yes, it has the potential to revive people in no time and bring back to action pretty fast but it's only a potential behind that system and not a guarantee. The way of how it will be used and it's efficiency depends on players (which are not a constant value as we all know).
Is it realistic? Well.... not quite realistic as some of you would like it to be (assuming from posts), including myself. But I am aware of it and I accepted it (read above - Realism and PR being realistic), it's good for the teamwork I guess
As stated above, I'm aware that sometimes reviving system may be really annoying, and I experienced it personally too, but I cant see any good reason to remove it.... TBH, I'm not against some minor changes to medic kit.


Removing revive
Reviving is the one of essential elements of infantry fighting in PR at the moment and keeps the squad together at the squad level (along with rally point). It's also one of the reasons why medic is a playable class and to be honest it's the most teamwork oriented class in the whole PR... I could say that teamwork in PR starts from the medic class (you can quote it in your sig if you want :lol
It is impossible to remove this element without making some changes of other elements of the game at the same time. If we want to keep squads together and remove revive then some serious changes on spawning system must be made, it can't be ignored since it's connected with the "player coming back to action after death" cycle.


Possible results of removing revive
1. Medic kit will be underused, reasons:
- no ability to revive
- ability to heal others not effective due to high lethality of weapons in PR and slow speed of healing
- poor weaponry
2. Medic kit will be overused:
- every rifleman will be cooperating with their own medic, kind of personal healer (yes it's teamwork but not the way we all expect :mrgreen
3. Gameplay will turn in to a team deathmatch with spawn-walk-kill-die-spawn mentality


Limiting medic kit to 1 per squad
I don't think it's a bad idea but I would like to point out that it's just not needed at all (IMHO). I've noticed that squads are well balanced in PR 0.85 and there are only 1 or 2 medics in the squads already (usually 1).
There are no vanilla squads full of medics in PR and it's not overused kit so what's the point of wasting time and including medic kit limitations in to PR if most players are already limiting medic kits in the squads on their own? It will only lower flexibility of choosing kits within the squad.
Most PR players are smart, they know that they can (or must) have other kits in their squads too... having more then 1 or 2 medics is a waste of squad slots (and on some maps with vehicles having 2 medics is also too much).


Possible results of limiting medic kit
- Only one medic per squad *
- Medic will stay behind the squad, following the others *
- when medic dies someone else will pick up his kit *

*it happens already in game as I mentioned before


Things that could be done with "medic problem" without going radical
(Some of the following solutions was already mentioned by others in this thread, some are mine)

1. Increased time of reviving (slightly)
2. Increased time of healing with medpack (x1,5? or x2?)
3. Adding "ammo" for medpack so it can give limited number of Health Points, resupplied just like any other weapon (HP of a soldier x5-10?).
4. Decreasing number of epipens a little bit (to 5 or 6? maybe)
5. Increased damage of all weapons (slightly)
6. Return of Lethal headshots



That's all

[evya]

total agree with ragni, +remember thats there only 32 player in each team, no revive mean way more spread out squads and more walking[as if even half the squad down, after their respawn rally probaly will be spotted and removed, making your squad spawn in firebase, which can be close, and can be half the map away[probaly, but it have to do little testing].

[hx.bjoffe]

I think not many realize how limited ONE medic per squad will be... the medics job is going to be living hell if you are rushing things

Im alot more worried about keeping supply lines up, if they're to be requested.

[McBumLuv]

If medic kits are reduced to one per squad will they or will they not be spawnable? I hope so, just make it like in FH2, except limited per squad rather than limited per team?

[LithiumFox]

For ultra realism we should make it so that a small person pops up behind someone and kills them the way they just died in game...

or

make it so they can only live once per round..

remember, realism is key and people don't just go around respawning everywhere.. they die once

OH, and ALSO... don't forget that soldiers would have different emotions, so i think it should randomly screw with your aim or make some people super-soldiers

because some people are super calm in the midst of battle, while others are off in a locker hiding and pissing their pants..

we should also send every person one of these smell things for video games, with a complementary smell of blood.

Oh and don't forget the feeling of the following:

Nausea
Vomit
Headaches
Paranoia
Lack of sleep* (Most of this already have this thanks to pr however)
Diarrhea
Homesickness
Broken Bones
Exhaustion
Depression
Agressiveness
Feelings of honor (something GOOD for a change!!! =D Yay!)
Feelings of duty
Feelings of feeling
Loss of feelings in the extremities

AND

Force Feedback/Vibrating CHAIRS.

=D

(60% of this post is sarcasm... i would actually like to see PR have SMELL... oooooo.. the smell of gun powder, gasoline, and Fresh Pine Forest would be amazing!!! ^_^)

Edit: I was serious about that smell thing.. I would love to take a stroll around Fools Road and smell the forest air... it would be awesome!

[SocketMan]

The "revive system" is not going anywhere,keep cool my babies.
It does need improvement and it's getting some with 0.9.
Now the revive system is part of the game system so it would affect and also be affected by other "systems" in the game.Rally points,FOB's,spawn times,all these (and many other)
are "systems" and they all have to be at the optimal level,a great revive system
can be rendered useless by a shitty spawn system,etc,...
The key here is to fine the best balance of all these systems - in the game of PR,
and the name of Allah (it rhymes)

[McBumLuv]

I'd still love to see what you've suggested, though, Socket. a "critical hit" probability when you're hit in the torso, varying by caliber of course. In other words, you've got a certain chance of instantly being killed by a bullet to the chest, in which you can't be revived.

[White Rock]

Big exaggeration, but thats what I am trying to get at. Speaking seriously here, is it project reality, or project teamwork? Why does realism =/= teamwork?

Acually it's both, devs have stated in interviews that teamwork is one of the main goals of the mod.

And lets not kid ourselfs, this is not and never will be ARMA or RO, and it never will be. BF2 engine limits are stritic and besides...

The "revive system" is not going anywhere,keep cool my babies.
It does need improvement and it's getting some with 0.9.

Great

[Vege]

I would say limit it to 2 per squad so that one medic don't get pissed if he happens to die all the time.

I have found 5-6 medics in a squad to be deadly in maps with low level of vehicles and by all means this kind of behavior should be taken away.

[LithiumFox]

... medics are for hippies anyway ... XD

[Onil]

you don't need to remove the revive option, you just need to limit it.

10 Limited Medic kits that have the epipen plus the regular medic kit that can only heal.

2 medics max in a squad.

Or if you want to make it interesting make it 4 limited medic kits only and add med-evac vehicles

[RandomUserABC]

I'm not sure if anybody has noted this point already, but maybe you could get revived, but still be crippled.
For example,

Lets say you get shot in the gut 3 times and die. A medic arrives, revives, and heals you. But instead of simply getting up and continuing to fight as if nothing happened to you, one or some of the following would happen to you, upon being revived and healed.

- you wouldn't be able to use heavy weapons (HATs, LATs, HMGs, RPG's, Shoulder-mounted AAs, etc.)
- your vision would blur sometimes for small periods of time (as if you were being suppressed)
- you would not be able to sprint for as long as you could before you "died", and would take slightly longer for the sprint bar to reload.
- etc, etc, etc.

If you die and get revived more than once, these consequences would stack up on top of each other (die once, get revived + healed and your vision blurs from time to time. Die a second time, get revived + healed and not only does your vision blur from time to time, but you can't use heavy weapons. Die a third time, blah blah blah... you get the picture.)

Also, you shouldn't be able to die as many times as you want, maybe perhaps 3 times you've been critically wounded and you go down permanently (automatic give-up).

[1337]

We basically already have a no-revive/no-medic mode: playing as Iraqi insurgents. And from what I've seen, there's significantly less teamwork and significantly more lone-wolf behavior. The funny thing is, when my squad manages to steal a couple blufor medic kits, we become much more cohesive.

I've had this whole death/revive/teamwork discussion a couple of times before. And, for me, it all comes down to how you want to influence player behavior: with a carrot or with a stick. You can either punish players for not working together, or you can reward them for helping each other.

I like carrots.

I totaly agree the insurgents run randonly around the map attacking anything that moves
and the only time theres any teamwork is when one of us kills a medic and steals his kit
then it starts to come together a little, as of present no one wants to be a collaborator
with the masive spawn time so insurgency kinda sucks also the very fact there are no RP's
and only hideouts also adds to the deminish of teamwork, and only the strong insurgent sqauds stick together which is currently rare !

From what ive observed the coalition forces always win the majority of firefights, as in once they find a cache they pound so hard using there teamworks IE RP's and medics that they always destroy the cache so 99% of firefights are won even though they dont neccesarily win the round due to lack of intel.

But if you go into any insurgents map click up the scoreboard near the end of the round and check out the kills to deaths on the server, the insurgents always as a team have way more deaths than kills, yet the coalition forces always have more kills than deaths due to the whole teamwork/medic factor check it out next time you play you will see i am correct about these numbers.

[SgtFailure]

Even if theres someone playing collaborator in INS maps, there will most likely be only one or two in the whole team and they will most likely be on the other end of the map when you get shot. I mean you dont really see a whole squad of collaborators right?

[alexaus]

removing revive is out of the question
People wouldnt bother sticking with squads otherwise

[freeway]

so from all of the above :
1 - cant be revived if u r killed by 1 shot in the head
2 - cant be revived if u r killed second time since the last spawn
3 - limit 2 for each squad
4 - cant be revived if u get killed in 60 sec after a medic revives u