Medic system

[Solver]

It's a good idea to look at how the system might be abused/misused or generally break the game in a bad case. Because people do manage to get that done...

1. Medics would become very valuable assets, so asset wasting becomes a danger. If even one medic spot is taken by a player who's not interested in teamplay or doesn't know what to do, the team is at a very big disadvantage, similar to what happens if the team gets a pilot that crashes an assault plane on takeoff.

2. Operating alone would make it too hard for medics to survive on some maps. I'm particularly thinking Insurgency maps, coalition forces only survive there due to moving with their squad. A lone medic in an ambulance vehicle, let alone on foot, will probably never make it anywhere.

3. The actual gameplay for medics might not be very fun then. In the current system, medics also get to participate in all the other stuff that happens - they participate in firefights with their squad, they storm flags, etc. For a dedicated medic under this proposal, the game would just consist of walking/driving to a squad, healing them for a minute, going to the next squad, rinse and repeat. They wouldn't really see any action, even if their loadout remains the same as now, they'll be killed immediately by any squad that sees them. I am just not sure you would find that many players who are willing to spend entire rounds in a role where they should avoid enemy contact. Case in point, the 0.8 commander, the position is empty like 90% of the time now because commanders must stay in the command post. Not saying medics would be that bad but I think the current commander situation proves that players want to be at least a bit in the action.

4. While creating more realism in the sense that wounded squad members would be tougher to heal and somewhat of a liability, it would also detract realism in the sense that lone medics moving through the battlefield are unrealistic.


This isn't me trying to diss the idea, I've just learned to look at the possible negatives of any proposed systems. I really like where this suggestion is going, not in the least because it would make resupplying occasionally a greater priority, something squads don't have to think about that often now.

[Fungwu]

1. Medics would become very valuable assets, so asset wasting becomes a danger. If even one medic spot is taken by a player who's not interested in teamplay or doesn't know what to do, the team is at a very big disadvantage, similar to what happens if the team gets a pilot that crashes an assault plane on takeoff.

Well I think this example shows why this idea would work. Taking off and landing in planes is difficult, using the plane effectively is difficult, and if you crash you don't get one for 20 minutes, and yet the air system still works.

Planes aren't totally vital to win, so if no one knows how to use them the team is at a disadvantage, but not doomed.

On the other hand skilled players can use aircraft and really excel.

So I think medics would be similar. Perhaps there would not be great medics in every game, but they would not be totally necessary. Even if the medics were bad, since the kit would respawn instantly on their death, someone new could take the kit and try to do better.

2. Operating alone would make it too hard for medics to survive on some maps. I'm particularly thinking Insurgency maps, coalition forces only survive there due to moving with their squad. A lone medic in an ambulance vehicle, let alone on foot, will probably never make it anywhere.

Well then they would have to develop tactics to survive and succeed, just like everyone else. On Archer, Ramiel, and Basrah all have choppers. Other maps have other ways to get where you want to go.

On some insurgency maps the blue team will operate in a big convoy with all the team moving together. So in that case medics wouldn't be traveling alone. Yes it would be difficult and unrealistic for medics to wander around, which is why the shouldn't do it.

If the team is playing realistically and with tactics then squads will cooperate together, and they will deploy forward bases in good positions. In that case medics would have a good chance to succeed. If the team is spread all around and wandering about the map, then yes medics will have a tough time, but then so will the entire team.

The actual gameplay for medics might not be very fun then

Well I wouldn't think it was fun to drive around logistics trucks, but there are squads that do just that. I think you would be surprised at what some people consider fun. There are people out there who would relish the chance to be a dedicated medic and try their best. I think the best part of this game is that it encourages and rewards people who really try hard to play realistically and as a team and this would be one more layer.

I agree that commanders shouldn't be locked up in a trailer the whole game, but I think the flaw there is that they are not really playing the game, they are just looking at a screen watching everyone else play.

Often commander sits around with nothing at all to do. The medic is going to be in the game, he is going to have people gunning for him, he is going to have missions to accomplish, he is going to be interacting directly with other players, people are going to be crying out in chat "MEDIC we need you!!!" So I don't think being medic will be boring.

2 medics isn't enough for 30 players.

Well the whole idea is that there is not enough medics to efficiently heal all the players all the time. Right now we have enough medics for 30 players but the consequence is that you can get shot in the head, or anywhere else and it is not a big deal. So the fact that there isn't enough medics means you can't get shot as much and thus need to take cover, etc.

Also if think of it this way: 3 squads operating together plus one medic= 16 players. If the squads are actually working closely together than the medic can make his way from one to another and heal everyone who needs it with just enough trouble to make it exciting. Now if everyone in the squad is sticking their head out and getting shot every three seconds then 2 medics won't be enough, but the point is to discourage the kind of behavior that leads to getting shot all the time.

I'm also thinking that some people are taking the medic kit just for fun, and then not reviving people. That would make the whole team fall.. so i think there is to much responsibility for 1 person (even if he is not playing around, he can still be a bad medic and just die).

Well, it is not exactly a sniper kit, what would be fun about just grabbing a medic kit and not doing anything with it? If they do die, the kit is not lost for 10 minutes, and someone else can grab it. Also the whole team wouldn't fail, they can all revive each other, and heal each other as long as they have sufficient supplies. If the medic is an idiot, call on someone else, a chopper pilot or logistics trucks to bring a crate. APCs to bring supplies etc.

Also, when there is infantry maps? What is he supposed to do then, when it will take 15 minutes to go there.

What maps are you thinking of? First off the medic can spawn at FOBs like anyone else, and so he will be just as much of a walk as the rest of the team.

Many maps have choppers that are available, and you could even add medivac choppers that only seat a pilot and 2 passengers.

Finally if you give medics their own jeeps then they can have their own reasonable transport.

And what about snipers and everyone else who has to walk 15 minutes? Walking 15 minutes is part of the game, if you don't have the patience to walk then you will not succeed in this game.

Last thing.. if a full squad is bleeding, and the medic estimates 10 minutes. They have a rally next to them. I think that squad would choose to suicide and just respawn instead of waiting.

Well, I explained above why I think the scoring system should be tweaked to penalize this type of behavior. I do agree that it is possible. But I for one try to die as little as possible and I would never think of suicide so I could respawn.

Ten minutes is a very long time, I am not sure of the walking speed, but in ten minutes someone can walk at least 2000m. Many maps are smaller than that, and those that are larger all have many vehicles available. Also a squad who is thousands of meters away from the nearest FOB, thousands of meters away from the nearest supply source, and who is unreachable by truck, jeep, apc, or chopper should be penalized, because they are not playing realistically or as a team.

A squad who is bleeding has a lot of assets to call on for help, anything that can transport them or bring supplies, as well as a medic. If they don't have any of those things available AND they are getting shot left and right, then their bleeding should be a big pain in the *** because they are playing the game poorly.

[fuzzhead]

I think its important to remembe gameplay as well as realism when looking at the medic sytem. There is already some big changes coming (as posted earlier)

However, I think its a fine in making medics not as powerful, and medics simply not being used anymore because its faster to giveup/suicide and spawn again than waiting for the medic.

I play very frequently with 3 squads working together, and I can tell you 1 medic for all of them simply wont work.

You got to think like this: is it easier for a lonewolf to just run out kill then die and respawn, or a squad to move out with a medic, take wounded in and come out alive.

Its soooo much easier to play in a lone wolf style and with alot of recommended medic changes, it would also be more effective too. So you want realism but in then end you just make medic system not useful and lonewolf attack system the best...

Its a big topic though, thanks for discussion and ideas..

[Fungwu]

"And yes, the next patch will have limited medic 1 per squad plus only able to revive every 60s"

Well, I think this is a step in the right direction, and if you guys want to go slower than my proposal, then I can see the wisdom in that.

I would encourage you to strongly consider limiting the medic to field dressings and removing the medic bag. I think it is important to limit the amount of healing a squad can call on, or else getting shot in the arm, or otherwise wounded has no consequence, because the medic can just patch you up in a few seconds. Conversely you could leave the medic bag, but make it much slower, so at least there is some penalty for being hit.

[Wicca]

I like the basic idea:

Like Everyone can revive.

The limited kits (4 would be nice)

The limited field dressings

But the time for the field dressins to heal you should be 30 seconds, not one minuit.

The medic should have:

rifle without scope, 4 mags. (one inside the gun total 5)
Medic bag.
knife.
shovel????
binoculars.

That would be it.

I really like this idea, makes it realistic, which is good, and pushes the teamwork to a new level!

[Gleger]

I think the Medic kit should disappear just like the Collaborator kit does when they get killed. That would make the medic to really be careful to where he goes. It would also eliminate the other team from grabbing your medic kit to revive his own squad after a fight. And now that I mention that, a little off topic, is it possible to make the kits, Team specified. Meaning you can't grab enemies' kits? Sounds like that might be hardcoded.

[Wicca]

I hope they make this good.. The devs that is.

[@bsurd]

I think the Medic kit should disappear just like the Collaborator kit does when they get killed. That would make the medic to really be careful to where he goes. It would also eliminate the other team from grabbing your medic kit to revive his own squad after a fight. And now that I mention that, a little off topic, is it possible to make the kits, Team specified. Meaning you can't grab enemies' kits? Sounds like that might be hardcoded.

thats what im thinking about when read this.

I think then the 2 medics are the best targets on the map. shoot them, steel kits, and the e team has no medic support... (Graet Deal!)

I think also if this changes get in the game, teamplay would be so freaking slow!

Its a game, an not RL.

I dont want to wait many min down on the map with the hope that a medic is come.(its only hope, because there is no voice connection when he is in another sq.)

And on public in this version its hard enough to get a medic or repair if the guy isnt in the same sq or better in your clan.

And i think after 10 min running arround bleeding it is so stupid, that many players will suicide and respawn... With the changes on the ticket lost, it would be really painfull to loose a game because of some stupid guys in the team.

And what is when a sq has one of these 2 medic kits, and the medic stay´s only by his sq. Pain for all the other guys.

Let the medic as it is now, with some changes:

- Bring Headshots back
- Only one recive per min ( for the medic)
- A soldier can only recieved every 3 min. (not shoot down, patch up, shoot down again, patch up again and so on)
- Only one medic per sq.

And all is fixed imo.

[Royal_marine_machine]

Why change it? it's perfect as it is...

The medic would be able to revive more than one person a minute in reality (reviving = giving adrenaline so they f***ing wake up) and then they have to sit there with their medic bag for ages.

I do think you shouldn't be able to pick up medic kits though, I think you should only be able to pick up enemy kits if you are insurgent.

Why limit medics? They are not like in vanilla where they can heal everyone, they have 9 epipens, and if they don't do the CPR first then that means about 4 or 5 revives, which isn't that many. Also, their gun is pathetic, so anymore than 1 medic per squad is a waste of firepower. Iron sights do not work except at close range, and if a firefight is going well they shouldn't be close enough to use iron sightss effectively.

and I thought headshots still killed... which grenades should do if you are close enough when it goes off (hard to revive lots of little bits of a person after all...)

[Denisb]

bumping a old thread to make my answer too.

I think it's great how it is!

I mean c'mon! 2 medics in a whole team? = Noob = Pwnd by others.
I mean 3 squads without a medic get killed = Stop playing due bad medic system

And i think it's just great. Editing medic system to something that's not even good ( like this suggetion ) makes ppl just quit the game and stop play the mod.

That's all,
BTW, i didint want to be rude xD
Denis

[Tonnie]

Ok urrrmmm love the idea of the whole section having epipens and bandages and would add a nice change in the way a section would attack... Only grunge i would have is think about it.... Only 2 medics ( COME ON ) i mean if your on a full sever thats like 2/32 medic to player ratio, maybe make it 4 or 5.... But other then that i like this and would like to see this implemented into PR

[Tarantula]

be good if the medic class had the shock paddles back and could bring people back from the "dead" state.(within a time limit)

[Denisb]

be good if the medic class had the shock paddles back and could bring people back from the "dead" state.(within a time limit)

Well shock paddles dont help you when you'r shoot right

Wonder if the epipen does that ?

[Ccharge]

I dont like this idea. I belive the reason why we can get team mates up and going so fast is to make it more realistic, obviously theres more then 32 soldiers on a single side within a 2 km regon, plus if you havnt seen the changelog for 0.86 there making it so if your critically wounded again within 60 seconds of being critically wounded u die. That would counter alot of the medic spam.

[maarit]

just asking:how often you use give up button after you get injured?
i have to confess that i use very often because i know:no one is coming to resque me.

and is that realism-based to injury most off the cases?
why not direct death?

and someone wrote in this tread that medics should not have a rifle,maybe just pistol or knife to selfdefense.
in that case they should be like civilians,if you shoot them,you get punished.

[rampo]

How will u add epiepen's to allrdy full equipment list, its not possible to add more stuff to most of the kits

[Celestial1]

Unfortunately, with the BF2 constraints, I think this is a bit flawed in the fact that it costs a weapon slot to give an epipen to everyone. Not only that, but CPR as well; CPR fixes yet another bug with the BF2 engine, so not giving it to everyone is not acceptable.

Officer kits are full. I believe rifleman and rifleman specialist kits are full as well. AT/LAT/Grenadier/AR/younameit have extra slots, but without the basic building blocks of every squad (Officer/Rifleman) having it, it wouldn't make sense.


As much as I think that a team medic would be 'realistic' and everyone having the ability to heal 'realistic', it would really break things up; no one wants to wait 5 minutes trying to contact the team medic (you can't see text from wounded if you're alive, so you could only reach the medic if he was in your squad, on mumble, on teamspeak, or through commander) or contacting him only for him to arrive just as all your squad is killed off because he had another squad to save; or worse, he gets killed in the process and is the only medic available to help get your squad up.

The medic kit as it is... it's well, a gameplay splint, really. To fix the iffy concept of this team-wide medic system (how do we give everyone epipens and CPR? how do we contact the medic if there's no commander and he's not in a third-party voice program? how do we make sure that the kit will be available where it's needed? how do we shuffle the team around to help get the medic to his target and not be killed in the process of reviving?), the singular medic or corpsman who carries basic medical supplies is used as a simple alternative, since it's easier to give everyone a medic than give everyone medical abilities.


In another time, in another engine, yes. In our current state, however, I would advise against this due to the issues it would create.

[Smegburt_funkledink]

and someone wrote in this tread that medics should not have a rifle,maybe just pistol or knife to selfdefense.
in that case they should be like civilians,if you shoot them,you get punished.

Someone? Has that someone served in the military? The PR team has military advisers you know.

So, give them a different weapon (that they can still easily kill with) but punish anyone who kills them? People will use them more offensively that way...

[Celestial1]

Everything's fun and games until the guy you can't shoot starts giving you menacing looks with a blade in his hands.

[maarit]

just thougts...
but is headshot in game still?

because every gunfights result is critical injured.
and is there any possibilities to finish those who are critical injured?