Project Reality Forums

[R-DEV]Spush wrote:Binoculars are mainly restricted to Squad Leaders, Fireteam Leaders, Platoon Leaders, and Vehicle Commanders (in our case Crewman Kit), according to our MA's.

If you have time, Can you tell me what you mean by Restricted? Is it Restricted, as in

-Not carried by everyone because you don't feel you need one.

-There is limit to number of binos that can go around due to money etc.

-Some kind of rules or doctrine. People who make rules somehow think this is better etc.

Or something else.

Curry-Chicken wrote:Any zoom is bad zoom, at least for grunts.

Curry.

Indeed.

Which is why we need more zoom in in PR because everything is zoomed out.

MADsqirrel wrote:That remembers me of the old rally point nerf discussion.
Everyone said it will ruin the game and does any one complain about it now? No, because everyone got used to it!
It will be the same for the binocs.

Those people don't complain because they no longer play.

Reverting back to only SL's having binocs is fine but I do think insurgents should stay the same or at least IED kits should have them.

I really wish these anti discussion "stop complaining!!" comments would cease.

If you're too lazy to form a justifiable opinion on a major change in a game, then please dont post. ARguments can be presented by both sides neatly, and we can reach conclusions or spawn new ideas. Debate is only bad when it becomes insults, which this thread hasnt devolved to totally.

also

Trooper909 wrote:Those people don't complain because they no longer play.

Reverting back to only SL's having binocs is fine but I do think insurgents should stay the same or at least IED kits should have them.

Insurgents will still keep their binocs.

risegold8929 wrote:Hmmm? Insurgents have binocs maybe?

[R-DEV]AfterDune wrote:Right now, yes. One of the reasons is that they get a lot of intel from locals irl. Having binocs in game simulates that, sort of.

I personally don't enjoy it on the Falklands, but having watched and listened seems supression is the key and far more often than I thought possible results in a kill.

SO got to get used to 'blind' engagements, plus another reason for SL's to stand back and lead.

40mmrain wrote:I really wish these anti discussion "stop complaining!!" comments would cease.

If you're too lazy to form a justifiable opinion on a major change in a game, then please dont post. ARguments can be presented by both sides neatly, and we can reach conclusions or spawn new ideas. Debate is only bad when it becomes insults, which this thread hasnt devolved to totally.

Except maybe that you're complaining about something you don't know? That you never experienced, that you never tried yourself... You're only making assumptions.
On the other hand Devs tested it, the Alpha testers tested it, if it was that terrible it wouldn't have made it to the final version.
So, once again, sorry for you, stop complaining and wait until you can get your hands on it.
I'm not "lazy" to form an opinion, I have one about those changes, I just want to confirm that opinion by trying it first before making a fool of myself saying it's a terrible change and then actually enjoying the said change (even tho I don't think it's a terrible change, quite the opposite).

As for the "realistic argument", it's just of no value here. Ok IRL you have a better view, you can focus and all, BUT, IRL you also have a lot more details, objects distracting you, you can't see a camouflaged soldier in the distance, you have to deal with the sun, dust and smoke. As I said before on your screen you'll always see that black pixel, and then just have to ask your SL/Sniper to confirm the contact, IRL a guy full camo at 300+ meters, there are very few chance you can spot the guy. Just look at any afghanistan video, despite the binos and the optics, they rarely know exactly where the enemy is and just fire at a direction. Deal with it, no binos IS more realistic in some way.

Midnight_o9 wrote:Except maybe that you're complaining about something you don't know? That you never experienced, that you never tried yourself... You're only making assumptions.

not all theorizing requires experimentation to be productive, in fact not theorizing before experimenting is retarded, as you'd have to carry out infinite experiments to discover anything

also, what the fuck is vietnam, normandy and falklands?

40mmrain wrote:If you're too lazy to form a justifiable opinion on a major change in a game, then please dont post. ARguments can be presented by both sides neatly, and we can reach conclusions or spawn new ideas. Debate is only bad when it becomes insults, which this thread hasnt devolved to totally.

Its not really a major change for me because this is not technically new its more a roll back to how it used to be.
My argument is not having binocs was fine and game play was alot better.Not saying the two was related but not having them was not a big deal then so its not a big deal now.Grunts should be covering they're sectors,leave the spotting to the officers and snipers.

Now all we need is to get rid of scopes on the autosniper kits.

40mmrain wrote:not all theorizing requires experimentation to be productive, in fact not theorizing before experimenting is retarded, as you'd have to carry out infinite experiments to discover anything

also, what the fuck is vietnam, normandy and falklands?

So what's your theory, that it'll kill gameplay, that it's unrealistic, that... whatever, those all lead to the same... you'll have to test it and if it really doesn't work it will be eventually changed again, but as Trooper said it was fine before when there were no binocs, even tho I'm pretty sure maps were a bit smaller back then and there were not much open space maps, more urbans, but it was damn long ago so I don't really remember.
And the "stop complaining" comments had for some (most?) an opinion as well... Like I gave you mine, but still think we should stop discussing that and complaining. Or you can give your opinion about what should be done without saying it's a stupid chance or shouldn't be made, give it a chance even if you're sceptical.

Also :
PR:BF2 Mini-Mods - Project Reality Forums

I think it will be good, and should encourage less lonewolfing (this time in a correct manner).


That is, of course, if the new version of PR cuts down on the number of Sniper and Marksman kits like they should have done ages ago.

If the number of omgsnip0r kits remains as it is it will just make the average infantry player even less enthused about playing and more likely to lonewolf to get kills and actually have fun (a squad with no vision putting suppressing fire onto someone they can't see because 16 pixels are now just 1 are just going to get headshotted one by one).

If the SL kit is the only one with the ability to zoom in and see the sniper, once he's killed (outright) it will:

a) Make his job harder as he didn't see the sniper and now all of his squad will be even more clueless as to what to do compared to 0.97
b) Make his job harder because they will have the defeatist attitude of being powerless compared to the lonewolf sniper with his ability to actually kill them. This feeling of powerless essentially ruins most PR games for anyone that plays the infantry role as it is, it saps the enjoyment and squad spirit and happens even in squads full of good players - which is ridiculous.


Now a lot of people will probably say 'well a & b make snip0ring realistic in PR' .. And I will say well screw you, snipers and marksmen ruin PR, make it more complex than it should be, and exist mainly just because experienced players snipe and enjoy getting the kills, and because vBF2 had the kits. They're just game ruiners for the other 60 players.

Well, sorry but then you play wrong, kinda. Your SL gets shot, you get to cover, smoke, get him up and then try to find the sniper, you don't sit on your *** waiting to be picked one by one. It's pretty hard to shoot a moving target in the distance with the sniper. You also can call in for reinforcement, CAS or another inf squad or whatever. The sniper is alone, you're legion, that's how the sniper is balanced.
As for the marksman, it's just a guy with a little bit more powerfull scope, it's not a l33t kit, just suppress, move from cover to cover and smoke and pop, he's dead if he's alone.
I'm surprised you didn't mention ARs as they are pretty damn powerfull, especially with the introduction of the GPMGs... with scope, they're gonna rape you if you're not careful enough

And I play PR since 0.3 and I can count how many times I used sniper kit on one hand, you don't have to be experienced to enjoy and use the sniper/marksman.

40mmrain wrote:
also, what the fuck is vietnam, normandy and falklands?

Don't turn this conversation to trolling please , the thread has been nice. Don't want to see it derail

Midnight_o9 wrote:Well, sorry but then you play wrong, kinda. Your SL gets shot, you get to cover, smoke, get him up and then try to find the sniper, you don't sit on your *** waiting to be picked one by one. It's pretty hard to shoot a moving target in the distance with the sniper.

Usually you are in cover already (not moving) and you get shot from out of nowhere (usually the flank or somewhere above/behind you, not obvious (even though you know the general direction).

Someone gets killed by the enemy sniper, then everyone runs off and finds some sort of cover.

The SL usually then pin-points the sniper with his binocs (with the aid of other squad members and theirs), and the squad (under his instruction) smokes up, revives, and then moves out of the sniper's line of sight.

Trouble is, if the SL is the only one now left with binoculars, he is always going to be the one killed outright by the lonewolf sniper when he surveys the route he wants to take. With him down this now means that nobody can find out where the sniper is and being inexperienced they will tend to run around like headless chickens, leading to at least one more being killed by the sniper in the process. Eventually they might get the SL up, but this will basically take about 10 mins and draw lots of attention. And if he gets shot again he must respawn.

In a good squad you can cut down the bad reaction and the slow/confused revive, but it's still damaging to squad progress and teamplay. At the moment the other [most experienced] members of the squad actually use their binoculars and tell the less aware or newer guys not to fire back and which cover to take. This is currently basically the salvation of the squad in PR if the SL gets shot without knowing where from.

With no binocs the squad are going to be sitting ducks and all because one lonewolf has a nice big gun and wants to play Carlos Hathcock instead of using his experience to lead a squad and contribute to a team ethos.

Midnight_o9 wrote:You also can call in for reinforcement, CAS or another inf squad or whatever. The sniper is alone, you're legion, that's how the sniper is balanced

You have played PR recently haven't you? Inter squad teamwork is ineffectual at best amongst infantry, because it is very hard to do and requires a bit of practise.

Tanks are moving targets for enemy HAT kits and can't support Inf very well apart from supressing the enemy for them (they are really underpowered because of non-destructable cover, limited view range and the HAT crouch technique), and CAS only exists to shoot down other CAS.

Yes, you might get lucky and have a good co-ordinated team, but even then if the SL is down and nobody has binoculars to spot the enemy sniper how will you call it all in and co-ordinate it?

If the battlefield is really that co-ordinated, the sniper probably wouldn't have been able to surprise you in the first place.

Midnight_o9 wrote:As for the marksman, it's just a guy with a little bit more powerfull scope, it's not a l33t kit, just suppress, move from cover to cover and smoke and pop, he's dead if he's alone.

The marksman kits have more powerful guns (take off more HP than squad weapons) and they are able to kill in one shot at ranges that normal squad weapons can't fire back at accurately for at least 4 seconds.

It's quite usual to be able to kill an SL with the marksman kit before his squad's AR can suppress you. Once the AR does suppress you then yeah, you have to relocate.

The marksman kit isn't as bad as the sniper as they tend to engage from closer, and it's easier to tell where they are without binos or a scope. They are still overpowered though, disproportionately creating a bad day for the squad they are aimed at. Although not as bad as snipers in this respect..

Midnight_o9 wrote:I'm surprised you didn't mention ARs as they are pretty damn powerfull, especially with the introduction of the GPMGs... with scope, they're gonna rape you if you're not careful enough

AR's fire tracer and they're really easy to pin point. Even without the tracer, because they fire lots of rounds it's easy to tell the location because of directional sound and also observing the pattern of the strikes on the ground/objects.

Further, the AR isn't a lonewolf kit (dya remember when it was, that was interesting.. A whole Ins team with scoped AR's!), so it's not as disproportionate as a hidden sniper.

Midnight_o9 wrote:And I play PR since 0.3 and I can count how many times I used sniper kit on one hand, you don't have to be experienced to enjoy and use the sniper/marksman.

I've used it quite rarely, when I played PR a lot I always led Inf squads because that's what I enjoy[ed]. The trouble I found is that the game led to me not enjoying doing that because the odds are stacked well against you by players that are just as experienced but choose the lonewolf roles instead of the leadership roles. These are always the more experienced players, and are basically conditioned by PR to be frustrated and defeatist when playing Inf because it's stacked against you as the game stands at the moment.

I do lonewolf in Insurgency as an insurgent sometimes, and the Marksman is the weapon of choice. It's not unusual in the maps suited to it to be able to basically immobilise a Blufor squad and make them revive members/leave members as they advance. It's a bit silly really, six guys with scopes that are at the mercy of a lonewolf without team comms with a gun.

Regarding the removal of binoculars and this - I just feel that if we are going to make the SL even more 'the head of the snake' (which is good I think) then we should also remove the lonewolf 'Head of the snake remover' kits such as Marksman and Sniper.

Removing binos from squad members will make them rely on the squad leader more, but it will also mean they are more helpless vs experienced players with assets/sniper rifles if he is killed or a poor leader.

Well, first, I only play on PRTA server with mandatory mumble and there is always a bit of inter-squad teamwork, I often witness armor covering infantry and CAS don't usually randomly fly around, they ask for targets and support other squads, so... that argument doesn't work for me, and again, you can't mod the players, so that's not even an argument, they're not gonna nerf the game because players don't play it the way it's meant to be played.

Also, your arguments are filled with "what if" situations, but honestly, you can find as much situations where snipers and marksman will be obsolete. And you're all like binos are a magic spotting tool, ever tried to spot a sniper on fools road for exemple? yeah, it's not that easy, even with binos.
It's kinda like saying that thermal view on armors ruin the game because you can't hide in bush anymore... That's just life, you have to adapt, and we did adapt to this, I'm pretty sure we will adapt to this change as well.

From my experience, a good AR can easily take out a sniper, or at least pin him down, which is often enough to give time to your medic to revive or to call in support.

And maybe now that they are so valuable, SLs will stop taking point and will stay to cover even more, meaning it'll be harder for the enemy to shoot them down, but most of the time anyway, snipers and marksman don't prioritise targets, they just shoot what they can... or maybe snipers do, but certainly not marksman.

Anyway, stop trying to find perfect fairness in PR, yes it's asymmetrical, it's meant to be.
you have many ways to counter snipers, you just have to learn them, and use them efficiently, and be more careful... As for the marksman, if he can see you, you clearly can see him with your optics, he's not overpowered, he has a more powerful gun? Oh, well, the G3 is more powerful than the M16, it doesn't mean MEC always win the rounds... The GPMGs are gonna be way more powerful than marksman but that doesn't seem to bother you.

You just say that AR's are less dangerous because it's not a lonewolf kit, but aint it quite the opposite? A squad in defensive positions, just waiting for the enemy, will be way more deadly, even in the distance, than a lonewolf sniper... shall we remove them as well? Cause a sniper can take out one, maybe two guys before they can react and take cover, an AR can simply wipe out a full squad...

Your entire theory, from my point of view at least, is based on "Enemy sniper is a badass PR veteran with rambo skills versus a bunch of noob squads with only the SL being experienced" I don't know on what server you're playing but you should consider a change.

Midnight_o9 wrote:Well, first, I only play on PRTA server with mandatory mumble and there is always a bit of inter-squad teamwork, I often witness armor covering infantry and CAS don't usually randomly fly around, they ask for targets and support other squads, so... that argument doesn't work for me, and again, you can't mod the players, so that's not even an argument, they're not gonna nerf the game because players don't play it the way it's meant to be played.

That's great, it's what I always enjoyed about PR and it's what I tried to find when I came back to it recently. Point taken, combined arms in PR is alive and well in your experience. In mine it doesn't work well because it requires too much practise and training (of sorts) by all involved.

Not sure what you mean regarding that you can't mod the players or what that refers to.

And they are going to nerf the game because players don't play it the way it's meant to be played.

It's the reason for basically everything in PR. Usually it works, to some degree at least. Deviation, not picking up enemy kits, no self healing medics, etc. We can both think of more nerfs. Nerfing sniper and marksmen kits would increase the gameplay value for normal Inf squads, that's what I want.

I don't think that removing or reducing lonewolf kits would nerf the game, I think it would contribute, but that's only my opinion, and I have set out my argument as comprehensively as I could.

Midnight_o9 wrote:Also, your arguments are filled with "what if" situations, but honestly, you can find as much situations where snipers and marksman will be obsolete. And you're all like binos are a magic spotting tool, ever tried to spot a sniper on fools road for exemple? yeah, it's not that easy, even with binos.

My arguments are filled with examples. And these are based on what I perceived as the norm in PR having played (quite successfully) as a SL for a year and in PR for 18 months.

I use the examples because I think it's the best way to illustrate my points and hope that it will help people understand me more. I can't cover the exact details of a scenario though, it does require some reader interpretation (as does anything).

Midnight_o9 wrote:It's kinda like saying that thermal view on armors ruin the game because you can't hide in bush anymore... That's just life, you have to adapt, and we did adapt to this, I'm pretty sure we will adapt to this change as well.

(I've already said that tanks are underpowered). Yes, you have to adapt. The trouble is that the experienced players generally adapt by not playing infantry because it's not fun enough.

When I SL I see snipers as an irritating hazard, that can easily be bypassed. They are far more of an obstacle to fun Squad leading than an obstacle to actually achieving a squad objective. Snipers are one of PR's most irritating time-wasters and fun sappers for Inf players, SL's especially (I think all Inf SL's just want battles, not to counter snipers constantly in an empty map).

The antidote is to pin-point them, mark them for the team, and avoid them. Removing binoculars will make finding snipers harder, leading to even more time being wasted on countering what is essentially a lonewolf with a toy kit that is only there because it's cool and because vBF2 had them.

Midnight_o9 wrote:From my experience, a good AR can easily take out a sniper, or at least pin him down, which is often enough to give time to your medic to revive or to call in support.

That's good, however in my experience snipers are really hard to see.. Once you've seen them then yes, the AR can usually wound them and sometimes kill them.

('Taking out' snipers is harder because they might be in an indestructable building or will be behind the crest of a hill. And it's a PR norm for a sniper to have a 'personal medic' in case he is killed by assets etc, which is another ridiculous thing in PR).

My point here though is that if the SL is killed, the AR won't know where to shoot. Usually the whole squad would find the sniper by scanning with binos (he can't snipe 5 of you without getting seen), but by removing binoculars this norm is removed.

It's not unusual to be able to guess where the sniper is.. But he's going to have two targets in a [scoped] squad without binoculars - the Squad Leader and the AR. Both are very recognisable due to their kits, and if you kill the SL first, the AR will not be able to see where you are as well and will still have to set up if he does [without you as a sniper killing him].

Midnight_o9 wrote:And maybe now that they are so valuable, SLs will stop taking point and will stay to cover even more, meaning it'll be harder for the enemy to shoot them down, but most of the time anyway, snipers and marksman don't prioritise targets, they just shoot what they can... or maybe snipers do, but certainly not marksman.

The SL will almost always (in PR) have to stop (behind a wall or at a window) and scan the terrain he'll be advancing through.

In my experience in PR the binoculars are invaluable as a SL because they let you spot stuff like trip-wires, aerials, FOB nets, set-up AR's and snipers, etc. I always use them before I go forwards.

I'll admit whilst I'm looking I keep side-stepping to spoil a sniper's aim (hoping to see him before he can shoot).

Trouble is though, because an SL has to do this, he makes himself an obvious target for any sniper watching. Even more so if he is the only guy with the zoom available (binos) to see the sniper at near max-view distance.

So personally I don't think that the SL will be less in the sniper's sights if binos are removed. I think he'll still be as vulnerable as he currently is.

Midnight_o9 wrote:Anyway, stop trying to find perfect fairness in PR, yes it's asymmetrical, it's meant to be.
you have many ways to counter snipers, you just have to learn them, and use them efficiently, and be more careful...

I'm not trying to find perfect fairness in PR, I am trying to find an enjoyable, balanced gameplay.

There are may ways to counter snipers and I have learnt them, my opinion of snipers is that they are a throwback to vBF2 kits and contribute little to teamwork in a server whilst actively ruining gameplay for a squad.

If a tank does that, fair enough. But not an experienced lonewolf in a bush 'behind enemy lines'.

Removing binoculars will remove the ability to see the sniper and will just make him more overpowered. He can't kill a squad in PR but he can ruin their fun and morale, and we play PR to have fun.

Midnight_o9 wrote:As for the marksman, if he can see you, you clearly can see him with your optics, he's not overpowered, he has a more powerful gun? Oh, well, the G3 is more powerful than the M16, it doesn't mean MEC always win the rounds...

I realise you can see him and fire back.. Fair enough. Yes, you don't need binocs to see him.

I'd prefer PR to have walls that disintigrated around him as he snipes from a window, but i'll concede that yes it is possible to see and suppress him.

So binos not such an issue in this case, you're right.

PS. You can't compare the M16 vs G3 with the Marksman vs Squad Weapon really, it wasn't the point I was making.

Midnight_o9 wrote:The GPMGs are gonna be way more powerful than marksman but that doesn't seem to bother you.

I've covered why AR's don't bother me in the previous post.

Midnight_o9 wrote:Well, first, I only play on PRTA server with mandatory mumble and there is always a bit of inter-squad teamwork, I often witness armor covering infantry and CAS don't usually randomly fly around, they ask for targets and support other squads, so... that argument doesn't work for me, and again, you can't mod the players, so that's not even an argument, they're not gonna nerf the game because players don't play it the way it's meant to be played.

That's great, it's what I always enjoyed about PR and it's what I tried to find when I came back to it recently. Point taken, combined arms in PR is alive and well.

Not sure what you mean regarding that you can't mod the players or what that refers to.

They are going to nerf the game because players don't play it the way it's meant to be played, it's the reason for basically everything in PR. Usually it works, to some degree at least.

I don't think that removing or reducing lonewolf kits would nerf the game, I think it would contribute, but that's only my opinion, and I have set out my argument as comprehensively as I could.

Midnight_o9 wrote:Also, your arguments are filled with "what if" situations, but honestly, you can find as much situations where snipers and marksman will be obsolete. And you're all like binos are a magic spotting tool, ever tried to spot a sniper on fools road for exemple? yeah, it's not that easy, even with binos.

My arguments are filled with examples. And these are based on what I perceived as the norm in PR having played (quite successfully) as a SL for a year and in PR for 18 months.

I use the examples because I think it's the best way to illustrate my points and hope that it will help people understand me more. I can't cover the exact details of a scenario though, it does require some reader interpretation (as does anything).

Midnight_o9 wrote:It's kinda like saying that thermal view on armors ruin the game because you can't hide in bush anymore... That's just life, you have to adapt, and we did adapt to this, I'm pretty sure we will adapt to this change as well.

(I've already said that tanks are underpowered). Yes, you have to adapt. The trouble is that the experienced players generally adapt by not playing infantry because it's not fun enough.

When I SL I see snipers as an irritating hazard, that can easily be bypassed. They are more of an obstacle to actually having fun Squad leading than an obstacle to actually achieving a squad objective.

The antidote is to pin-point them, mark them for the team, and avoid them. Removing binoculars will make finding snipers harder, leading to even more time being wasted on countering what is essentially a lonewolf with a toy kit that is only there because it's cool and because vBF2 had them.

Midnight_o9 wrote:From my experience, a good AR can easily take out a sniper, or at least pin him down, which is often enough to give time to your medic to revive or to call in support.

That's good, however in my experience snipers are really hard to see.. Once you've seen them then yes, the AR can usually wound them and sometimes kill them.

My point here though is that if the SL is killed, the AR won't know where to shoot. Usually the whole squad would find the sniper by scanning with binos (he can't snipe 5 of you without getting seen), but by removing binoculars this norm is removed.

It's not unusual to be able to guess where the sniper is.. But he's going to have two targets in a [scoped] squad without binoculars - the Squad Leader and the AR. Both are very recognisable due to their kits.

Midnight_o9 wrote:And maybe now that they are so valuable, SLs will stop taking point and will stay to cover even more, meaning it'll be harder for the enemy to shoot them down, but most of the time anyway, snipers and marksman don't prioritise targets, they just shoot what they can... or maybe snipers do, but certainly not marksman.

The SL will almost always (in PR) have to stop (behind a wall or at a window) and scan the terrain he'll be advancing through.

In my experience in PR the binoculars are invaluable as a SL because they let you spot stuff like trip-wires, aerials, FOB nets, set-up AR's and snipers, etc. I always use them before I go forwards.

I'll admit whilst I'm looking I keep side-stepping to spoil a sniper's aim (hoping to see him before he can shoot).

Trouble is though, because an SL has to do this, he makes himself an obvious target for any sniper watching. Even more so if he is the only guy with the zoom available (binos) to see the sniper at near max-view distance.

So personally I don't think that the SL will be less in the sniper's sights if binos are removed. I think he'll still be as vulnerable as he currently is.

Midnight_o9 wrote:Anyway, stop trying to find perfect fairness in PR, yes it's asymmetrical, it's meant to be.
you have many ways to counter snipers, you just have to learn them, and use them efficiently, and be more careful...

I'm not trying to find perfect fairness in PR, I am trying to find an enjoyable, balanced gameplay.

There are may ways to counter snipers and I have learnt them, my opinion of snipers is that they are a throwback to vBF2 kits and contribute little to teamwork in a server whilst actively ruining gameplay for a squad.

If a tank does that, fair enough. But not an experienced lonewolf in a bush 'behind enemy lines'.

Removing binoculars will remove the ability to see the sniper and will just make him more overpowered. He can't kill a squad in PR but he can ruin their fun and morale, and we play PR to have fun.

Midnight_o9 wrote:As for the marksman, if he can see you, you clearly can see him with your optics, he's not overpowered, he has a more powerful gun? Oh, well, the G3 is more powerful than the M16, it doesn't mean MEC always win the rounds...

I realise you can see him and fire back.. Fair enough. Yes, you don't need binocs to see him.

I'd prefer PR to have walls that disintigrated around him as he snipes from a window, but i'll concede that yes it is possible to see and suppress him.

So binos not such an issue in this case, you're right.

PS. You can't compare the M16 vs G3 with the Marksman vs Squad Weapon really, it wasn't the point I was making.

Midnight_o9 wrote:The GPMGs are gonna be way more powerful than marksman but that doesn't seem to bother you.

I've covered why AR's don't bother me in the previous post.

There is an ongoing 'specialisation' culture in PR and making the SL the only guy with binos is a result of this..

I'm supportive of making him more useful but by making the role even more specialised I think it might be complicating things yet more and making it even harder to squad lead (leading to it being less fun and to yet more experienced players avoiding doing it).

On the upside, removing binos from squad members will make it harder to lonewolf.. Unless you have a sniper kit! #

But essentially it's nerfing regular infantry kits because they are overpowered and take too much responsibility [for themselves by using the binos and getting their own situational awareness], and giving that responsibility to the Squad Leader.

Double edged sword.

Ok, now take thos two scenarios :
- Everyone has binos, one guy, let's say the SL, gets shot down by a sniper, in 90% of the time what happens is that the other SM won't take cover, they just take out their binos (no more guns out in the entire squad) and will start scanning to find the sniper, which often end up in one or two more dead SM as they pop their head out. Now add that, as you say it so often, the said sniper is experienced and a PR veteran, he will either relocate before being spotted or seeing he has been spotted, then relocate, meaning he disappeared again...
You'll agree that it's the exact same except that you have now 2 or 3 dead men instead of one SL and a squad taking cover/smoking.

- Second scenario, no binos except for the SL, the sniper is on a killing spree, shooting everything he can, eventually get killed (cause trust me that'll happen except if he's against 32 new players) that means he divest a spotting asset to his team, binos plus radio, just for a few kills... and then spotting assets such as binos will be really important and valuable, it will then be a consequent waste.

The PR sniper is in no way meant to be played as a killing asset like vBF2 sniper. Whoever use it like that isn't an "experienced player". You rarely (never?) see a sniper with a bunch of kills, however I often ended up with 20 + kills as an AR. So I really can't see why you think sniper is overpowered. All you complain about it you can't spot the sniper, but if he shoots you, you're already spotted to the other team as if he's so good, he signaled your position to the other squads. Your main concern then should be to get your dead guys up and move. And again, just move... in the distance a sniper will have a really hard time hitting anything moving.

Mikemonster wrote:PS. You can't compare the M16 vs G3 with the Marksman vs Squad Weapon really, it wasn't the point I was making

I really don't see why you could compare 1 more powerful gun vs 6 weaker ones and I couldn't compare 6 more powerful guns vs 6 weaker ones.. on a squad scale. What was your point then? Cause from what I understood your point was marksman is more powerful in the fact he can take out more HP... so does the G3 compared to the M16...?

Midnight_o9 wrote:Ok, now take thos two scenarios :
- Everyone has binos, one guy, let's say the SL, gets shot down by a sniper, in 90% of the time what happens is that the other SM won't take cover, they just take out their binos (no more guns out in the entire squad) and will start scanning to find the sniper, which often end up in one or two more dead SM as they pop their head out. Now add that, as you say it so often, the said sniper is experienced and a PR veteran, he will either relocate before being spotted or seeing he has been spotted, then relocate, meaning he disappeared again...
You'll agree that it's the exact same except that you have now 2 or 3 dead men instead of one SL and a squad taking cover/smoking.

I tend to find though that they will pop in/out from behind cover, and one of them may get shot but it's worth it because the others will see the sniper. Usually they will guess generally where he's at and the better ones amongst them will be able to pin-point him, and tell the others to get into cover related to that direction.

But you don't really need to pin point, just get a general direction so the medic can revive the SL.

If they don't have the binos, as proposed, then it will make the medics job harder and it will also mean that they can't find such good cover because they will not have any idea where the sniper's shots are coming from (N,S,E,W). Usually when the SL is killed there is a bit of a 'headless chicken' scenario from the newer squad members, I think this will be exacerbated by removing binos from the guys that currently use them to spot the sniper.

The medic can smoke the SL, but you don't always want to do this (makes you vulnerable to CQB/obvious to nearby enemy squads).. Ideally you want to tell the medic to throw the smoke between you and the sniper.

Midnight_o9 wrote:- Second scenario, no binos except for the SL, the sniper is on a killing spree, shooting everything he can, eventually get killed (cause trust me that'll happen except if he's against 32 new players) that means he divest a spotting asset to his team, binos plus radio, just for a few kills... and then spotting assets such as binos will be really important and valuable, it will then be a consequent waste.

If the sniper is chasing kills, I think he could kill 3 more of the squad if they have scopes but no binoculars and have no leadership. Possibly more.. It depends a lot on luck in PR, like in real life I suppose.

The thing is, he won't be firing at 32 players, he'll be firing at 6. And they will only react once he's shot the first one (and not always react effectively!).

I don't believe that the sniper kits are valued by the guys that use them to pester Inf squads, and I think they just use them because they want to role-play. I can't remember a time that a sniper contacted me as a SL on mumble to advise me on how to approach an area, but I can think of numerous times that I shot or stabbed a lonewolf enemy sniper. Sometimes in Ins they come straight back for 'their' kit (both Blufor and Insurgents).

(I did suggest a Recon/Forward Observer kit a year or so ago to replace sniper, with all the teamwork parts of the sniper kit but just a normal gun, but it was snuffed at).

Midnight_o9 wrote:The PR sniper is in no way meant to be played as a killing asset like vBF2 sniper. Whoever use it like that isn't an "experienced player". You rarely (never?) see a sniper with a bunch of kills, however I often ended up with 20 + kills as an AR. So I really can't see why you think sniper is overpowered.

The kit is not meant to be, but it is often (at least 50% of the time, probably 80%) used as a killing asset. And not used by the team. Used by the player.

I'm not saying that all experienced players like lonewolf sniping btw, but I am saying that a lot of lonewolf snipers are experienced players and enjoy the role-playing '3lite kills' side of the sniper kit. In that case, for them, to harass an enemy Inf squad over the course of 30 mins is worth more than being in a squad and getting kills with the AR. Because they are role-playing and have nobody to tell them what to do.

In an ideal world people would use the kits as intended, but I believe that in PR people do what they can within their own personal wishes (veneered with rationalisations) and the limitations set by the game - Rather than following the spirit of the game. That's fine by me but PR shouldn't allow it by keeping kits and assets that are not contributors (on average usage) to teamwork and team fun.

Midnight_o9 wrote:All you complain about it you can't spot the sniper, but if he shoots you, you're already spotted to the other team as if he's so good, he signaled your position to the other squads.

This is where we differ, I don't think teamwork is enough that the other squads will change their plan, and I don't think (in the majority of cases) that the sniper bothers to inform other squads.

I think usually it's the firing back at the sniper and the smoke of the medic that alerts the other team - Not their sniper on mumble.

Midnight_o9 wrote:Your main concern then should be to get your dead guys up and move. And again, just move... in the distance a sniper will have a really hard time hitting anything moving.

Agreed. And find a route to where you wanted to go that does not expose you to the sniper.

I find this easy and I'm sure that you do as well. But to me this means that the sniper kit is a time waster - it spoils Inf leading gameplay but does not really effect the enemy team. It makes playing Inf less fun but doesn't actually make it harder.

Midnight_o9 wrote:I really don't see why you could compare 1 more powerful gun vs 6 weaker ones and I couldn't compare 6 more powerful guns vs 6 weaker ones.. on a squad scale. What was your point then? Cause from what I understood your point was marksman is more powerful in the fact he can take out more HP... so does the G3 compared to the M16...?

What I meant was that the marksman kit was overpowered when used by a lonewolf - But the G3 isn't.

For instance, if you had the SVD in insurgency you will be a lot more dangerous to the enemy than if you had a scoped G3.

Although thinking about it, I rarely see marksman lonewolves outside of Ins so I do think it's not a big deal like the sniper kit is, point taken.