Project Reality Forums

[R-DEV]Rudd wrote:I did play around with making a better suppression effect by trying to use the camera shake that occurs when an explosion happens ingame, but I couldn't trick the effect in to triggering without making bullets as powerful as JDAMS

Too bad, would have been an interesting addition to the game thou =P

I love how this thread got completely onto suppression effects when the title is about the weapon aiming....

At any rate, I think the current deviation could use some changing. This scenario has been thrown out there before, but it makes a fair point. You walk around a corner, come up on an enemy, raise your sights and have your shots miss, sometimes emptying an entire mag using the "spray and pray" technique. Which in all honesty, isn't how soldiers do it in real life.

Bringing up your sights should give you about an 80-90% deviation loss. Currently it seems to be only at about 40%. I understand the need for deviation, as we don't want people being able to stop and accurately pop an enemy from 500m with an m4 all inside 2 seconds. But the system needs to take into account CQC fights. Like I said, currently they're mostly about bursting in with the trigger held down and praying to god your shots find home before the other guy's.

I also think there should be some reduction to the after-shot deviation times. Currently at a range of even 50m, you have to wait about 1-2 seconds for your next shot to have any accuracy. That's fairly unrealistic to be honest. Alot of these assault rifles, when properly shouldered, can be fired fairly accurately at that range with 2-3 shots per second, all of which would be more accurate than the current deviation system makes them.

I think people who play PR for the most part just like to roleplay. I saw the same thing when I tried ArmA.

It's not that Project Reality is realistic combat, but more so realistic interaction. People love to use the teamwork and battle commanding aspects of warfare. These same people get their *** handed to them 99% of the time when they come across real FPS players, just like the recreation center basketball teams where the guy make an team and play together week after week; throw them against 5 guys from a Detroit playground and you'll see what I mean.

The solution is to nerf every situation where individuals can gain the upper hand through practice and training. If everyone's guns are completely inaccurate outside of camping then you no longer have to worry about guys with no tactical acumen taking you out time after time. No matter how skilled you are, you'll be hard pressed to kill more than 2 guys in a row - unless you camp of course.

Looking at the deviation tables someone posted early in this thread was illuminating. I didn't even realize that you had to wait a full second between shots! And if you go prone (the most favorable shooting position both in game and real life) it takes a full 5 seconds before you can shoot right. The most common response to threads like this is "You shooting too fast. A soldier on a battlefield needs to take his time and shoot" Well, I managed to find this video without too much trouble. Personally I don't think these guys are that great shooters, but at least they can hit what they're shooting at:

YouTube - "Firefight Drill" OJ Run 1: Bushy AR-15/CMMG .22

(The "pings" are the bullets hitting the metal plates.)

As you can see, even these suburban gun junkies can shoots the lights out of a PR soldier. PR is designed to encourage collectivist action, and individual tactics are extremely nerfed. Whether this makes for a more enjoyable game is debatable. I personally think that if all deviation values were cut in half, suppression was removed almost completely, and a few other things tweaked, PR would eventually evolve into the undisputed heavyweight champion of FPS. Teamwork will always dominate in PR since it's by definition more effective. I remember playing games like BF2142 and getting thrashed by the TG guys, just because they worked together. No deviation present in that game. The guys that spend less time playing, and more time doing other things would just have to not come on the forums whining about "ninjas" rushing the hallway and mozambique drilling their whole squad (works for SWAT, why not PR players) while they're busy looking at their map.

cipher wrote:I think people who play PR for the most part just like to roleplay. I saw the same thing when I tried ArmA.

It's not that Project Reality is realistic combat, but more so realistic interaction. People love to use the teamwork and battle commanding aspects of warfare. These same people get their *** handed to them 99% of the time when they come across real FPS players, just like the recreation center basketball teams where the guy make an team and play together week after week; throw them against 5 guys from a Detroit playground and you'll see what I mean.

The solution is to nerf every situation where individuals can gain the upper hand through practice and training. If everyone's guns are completely inaccurate outside of camping then you no longer have to worry about guys with no tactical acumen taking you out time after time. No matter how skilled you are, you'll be hard pressed to kill more than 2 guys in a row - unless you camp of course.

Looking at the deviation tables someone posted early in this thread was illuminating. I didn't even realize that you had to wait a full second between shots! And if you go prone (the most favorable shooting position both in game and real life) it takes a full 5 seconds before you can shoot right. The most common response to threads like this is "You shooting too fast. A soldier on a battlefield needs to take his time and shoot" Well, I managed to find this video without too much trouble. Personally I don't think these guys are that great shooters, but at least they can hit what they're shooting at:

YouTube - "Firefight Drill" OJ Run 1: Bushy AR-15/CMMG .22

(The "pings" are the bullets hitting the metal plates.)

As you can see, even these suburban gun junkies can shoots the lights out of a PR soldier. PR is designed to encourage collectivist action, and individual tactics are extremely nerfed. Whether this makes for a more enjoyable game is debatable. I personally think that if all deviation values were cut in half, suppression was removed almost completely, and a few other things tweaked, PR would eventually evolve into the undisputed heavyweight champion of FPS. Teamwork will always dominate in PR since it's by definition more effective. I remember playing games like BF2142 and getting thrashed by the TG guys, just because they worked together. No deviation present in that game. The guys that spend less time playing, and more time doing other things would just have to not come on the forums whining about "ninjas" rushing the hallway and mozambique drilling their whole squad (works for SWAT, why not PR players) while they're busy looking at their map.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Personally, if any real soldier was a poor a shot as PR soldiers are, I have no doubt they wouldn't be allowed near a rifle. I'm not saying we should be able to Rambo around the map COD style and just mow people down effortlessly, but the current deviation is too much.
Unfortunately, camping is about the only way to effectively kill people as infantry on PR. Sure, it also applies in real life, but not in the same degree. With PR, you basically have to make yourself into a huge target to be able to shoot somebody else effectively. If you're behind cover, you can't just pop out real quick and accurately shoot the enemy who's firing at you right away. You have to come out, wait about 2 seconds, and then be able to accurately fire. In real life, a soldier can typically pop around the corner with his weapon shouldered and lay down accurate, successive fire in around a second.

At the very least, tone down the between-shots deviation, because it is HIGHLY unrealistic. Yes, some weapons do have more recoil than others, but making everybody have to suffer for the sake of "balance" isn't right, nor realistic.

And then there's the issue of the game engine limitations. We cannot go sit behind cover, hold the gun above our heads and fire randomly. We cannot lean in around a corner and fire a couple of well aimed shots. Then there is the precision of real life vs mouse movement. With a mouse you'll always be slower and not nearly as accurate as you would holding a rifle in your hands.

And then there's scopes. If you were walking in an urban area with a rifle, you'd not -have- to aim down your iron-sights all the time to shoot straight in fairly close distances (for as far as CQC goes. If I am not mistaken, most engagements are preferred to be at longer ranges?). Nor would it matter if you have optics with a certain level of zoom. You can just look over the optics to create a proper line of sight for CQC.

This list can go on and on, so let's just face it. It's a game, not real life. The developers had to place the bar at a certain level and they did. Think you can do better, join the team.

And on the prone/deviation thing? Those 5 seconds are put in place to 'add time' to the animation of going prone. If you look at how this movement is animated now, I hope you'll see that this isn't very realistic either. You go from standing up straight to lying down flat in a second. Sure, you can fall down flat on your stomach and fire away, but I do not think this is preferred when carrying all your gear with you.

I also think deviation should be lowered considerably, but the whole reason it is here is because of the BF2 engine. When PR ArmA 2 comes out, there will be no need for deviation as the weapon physically sways as standard.

Nixy23 wrote:Then there is the precision of real life vs mouse movement. With a mouse you'll always be slower and not nearly as accurate as you would holding a rifle in your hands.

I would have thought the complete opposite true, in any FPS I can easily spin from left to right, putting the crosshair straight on the enemy and firing in a quarter of a second. I don't think I could get anywhere near as fast in real-life.

As for the video, I know they're only gun junkies, but they wait 2-3 seconds before firing at any of the targets, and those targets are 20-30 meters away. I don't see how that proves PR's deviation wrong, since you'll easily hit stationary objects at that range with a 3 second wait. Most of the time in PR you are firing at moving targets 50-100m away wearing heavy gear.

I think with any comparison the perceived time is distorted. In game a lot of thing move faster than their real-life counterparts, and relative to that waiting a couple of seconds is a long time. In comparisons to real-life people move much slower than they perceive.

Also, if any devs could weigh in: How exactly does the deviation work? The way I think it is set up is that the radius of the area the shot can land in decreases linearly with time, so the area decreases proportional to the square of the radius. So if at 2.5 seconds the radius is at 1/2 of what it was originally, the actual chance of hitting what you're aiming at is 4x greater.

while i agree that deveation need's to be lowered you guys are talking from your arses tbh, the vid posted in the post a couple above mines shows showone running around in something i bet is at least 4times lighter than waht the average soldier carries, not only this be is not being shot at, he hasn't be walking all day in the sun, he's not tired and in PR if you were only firing 20 meters in front of you you can shoot in 2 seconds and kill, you don't need to wait the full 5 seconds.
Those ocmplaining about going prone and having to wait 5 seconds, well you try getting on the ground with a heavy backpack, while being shot at, while tired and possibly hungry i'd like you to be able to shoot accuratly after 5 seconds at a target 300 meters away.
Plus the guys in the videos take longer than people in PR to shoot at the ranges they do.

killonsight95 wrote:while i agree that deveation need's to be lowered you guys are talking from your arses tbh, the vid posted in the post a couple above mines shows showone running around in something i bet is at least 4times lighter than waht the average soldier carries, not only this be is not being shot at, he hasn't be walking all day in the sun, he's not tired and in PR if you were only firing 20 meters in front of you you can shoot in 2 seconds and kill, you don't need to wait the full 5 seconds.
Those ocmplaining about going prone and having to wait 5 seconds, well you try getting on the ground with a heavy backpack, while being shot at, while tired and possibly hungry i'd like you to be able to shoot accuratly after 5 seconds at a target 300 meters away.
Plus the guys in the videos take longer than people in PR to shoot at the ranges they do.

I wasn't planning on posting anything else, but I gotta correct a few things. The video was the best I could find, but it still shows a lot of the differences. The targets were more than just 20 meters away, at least for the last few. They also took up to 3 seconds to ready their weapon, but in PR you have to wait up to 5 seconds after moving at the same pace as them

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f138-i ... ost1288295

They also fired shots with only half a second between them, double the speed of our PR soldier. I would look for videos with people that had formal training, but take my word for it; when the clock is running during competitions, people don't need even a full second to lay down accurate fire at a mere 25 meters. I think what people who have never shot a rifle before mistake, is how ridiculously easy it is to shoot a silhouette at 25 meters with iron sights even, let alone a low powered scope. At 15 meters, I can drop 5 bowling pins with a handgun the time it takes for the PR deviation to allow for a single accurate shot. And that's an object smaller than a human head (the knob at the top of the bowling pin is the aimpoint), to ring a metal silhouette at 25m would be much easier.

We're not even talking about 100 or 200m engagements. Those are rare in PR. Just crossing into an alley in Muttrah, a guy might pop out on the other side of the street, and you'll exchange 15 shots with him, all of them missing, till someone can't see because the ridiculous suppression effects blinds them and they end up dieing. The time to shoot from moving should be cut in half to 2.5 seconds, and the time between shots should go down to 0.5 seconds.

Camping is the most effective strategy as it is. That's why you'll always see my with a marksman or sniper rifle. I could care less what the squad leader's talking about; I'll just join another squad. If you try and clear out a building it turns into a hide-and-go seek game, with times where you know the other guy is on the other side of the wall, but also that if you try to rush him your gun will spray wildly at a distance of 10 meters and he'll drop you with his lower "deviation". Just not fun for me. I'd rather hang back behind lines and engage targets that show up.

As far as the prone thing goes, simply lengthening the time it takes for your gun to represent itself once you go prone would be more than enough. And it really doesn't need to be 5 seconds. Suggesting that a soldier would take that long because he has a backpack and is tired is nonsense.

All in all, I don't care at this point what they do with the deviation. Switching to medium range fighting solves all those problems. There's something to be said for the whole "trench warfare" style of play anyhow. The majority of military engagements don't involve much infantry movement in the first place.

RealKail wrote:Bringing up your sights should give you about an 80-90% deviation loss. Currently it seems to be only at about 40%.

I don't think you understand how deviation works, it is tied mainly to the length of time you have been moving. Deviation is at maximum when you have been moving for 5 seconds or more, and it decreases drastically (not sure on the exact figure but its more than 40%) when you bring your sights up as opposed to just firing from the hip.

Either way, deviation is constantly being revised and updated and has been since it was first implemented so there will be further changes made...

cipher wrote:I wasn't planning on posting anything else, but I gotta correct a few things. The video was the best I could find, but it still shows a lot of the differences. The targets were more than just 20 meters away, at least for the last few. They also took up to 3 seconds to ready their weapon, but in PR you have to wait up to 5 seconds after moving at the same pace as them

I wasn't sure, the early ones didn't seem to be very far away at all though it's difficult to judge based just on video footage, I certainly think it's <50m to the majority of targets.

You have to wait 5 seconds to get a perfectly accurate shot off, to hit the target at that range 3 seconds should easily be enough. And you can fire 3 shots in a second and it will still be fairly accurate, this 1 second per shot thing is if you want to maintain the same amount of accuracy, but at that range it won't matter if your deviation increases slightly as you fire.

I dislike the way people think of the deviation as being completely about waiting time, when I'm in game I rarely think about trying to get completely accurate shots off. If I have the time to I will, but if it's a duel across a street, I don't stand their trying to get the most accurate shot off, I fire a couple of shots and relocate to fight where I have the advantage.

cipher wrote:Camping is the most effective strategy as it is. That's why you'll always see my with a marksman or sniper rifle. I couldn't care less what the squad leader's talking about; I'll just join another squad.

It's not all about the kills, and if you sit there with a sniper/marksman you're not doing anything to help your team. Suppressing and advancing generally thwarts any close up camping, and at long range assets can take care of campers. Though personally I think it's a pretty valid tactic primarily because its effectiveness is limited.

cipher wrote:If you try and clear out a building it turns into a hide-and-go seek game, with times where you know the other guy is on the other side of the wall, but also that if you try to rush him your gun will spray wildly at a distance of 10 meters and he'll drop you with his lower "deviation". Just not fun for me. I'd rather hang back behind lines and engage targets that show up.

Maybe not fun for you, hell of a lot of fun for me when there's shooting everywhere and you're trying to flush someone out. Generally in these situations I'll lob a frag if I have one, or if not I'll lob smoke just to annoy them or wait for someone who does have a frag to blow them up.

I think the deviation time is just right, but the amount of deviation is just too much.

For example: I was playing muttrah skirmish yesterday, and I walked round a corner to find an MEC rifleman standing around 50ft down the road. I knelt down and opened fire, yet the rounds went all over the place. He had just jumped off of a roof, so he opened fire and killed me instantly.

If the current deviation amount is, say, 10ft of spread at 100ft range, can't you change that to 3ft (for example) spread at 100ft?

This would allow you to effectively fire at close and medium ranges, but would still prevent kneel-down-and-shoot-a-sniper-instantly moves.

What do the DEVs think about doing that?

AquaticPenguin wrote:You have to wait 5 seconds to get a perfectly accurate shot off, to hit the target at that range 3 seconds should easily be enough. And you can fire 3 shots in a second and it will still be fairly accurate, this 1 second per shot thing is if you want to maintain the same amount of accuracy, but at that range it won't matter if your deviation increases slightly as you fire.

I dislike the way people think of the deviation as being completely about waiting time, when I'm in game I rarely think about trying to get completely accurate shots off. If I have the time to I will, but if it's a duel across a street, I don't stand their trying to get the most accurate shot off, I fire a couple of shots and relocate to fight where I have the advantage.

Of course deviation decreases in increments, but my point is that even at 3 seconds, you still end up missing the guy. I've just had way to many situations where shooting about every 0.5 seconds I put out a string of misses.

AquaticPenguin wrote:It's not all about the kills, and if you sit there with a sniper/marksman you're not doing anything to help your team. Suppressing and advancing generally thwarts any close up camping, and at long range assets can take care of campers. Though personally I think it's a pretty valid tactic primarily because its effectiveness is limited.

I'm not caring about kills. What I'm caring about is not constantly being killed. When I say camping with a marksman rifle, I'm talking about a squad on Muttrah holding a T-shaped building, for example. You each pick a good vantage point and wait patiently for dumb players to move in and take an objective, or, in the case of attacking, wait for someone to push past the defensive line. Asyou take out more and more guys, when the coast seems clear, you rush to the next most defensible building, slowly making your way closer and closer to the objective. It's like trench warfare, which is of course a realistic form of combat, but it's not specific situations that force you into this; it's always the most effective tactic. The fact that the momentum and potential talent of the rushers is nerfed makes it so that precision weapons and good vantage points are the best thing in the game. That's why I don't bother with the rushing stuff.

I don't even bother with "sniping". The developers nerfed that into oblivion. Even if you're the best in the west, the unrealistic revivals from medics make it so that you just can't be that effective without having a squad to sweep the area. People will say "Well a sniper that's not workign with an infantry squad is just a ninja", but in real life if you're a sniper being deployed in a small squad, the point is to do reconnaissance and take out targets behind enemy lines. PR makes taking out targets mostly useless (just dummies that run around solo looking for a skirmish get killed), so all that's left is reconnaissance. Well that's not realistically useful at all, unless you're on a mumble server with a fully networked team (how common is that). Don't get me wrong, I've went 12-1 hiding on a mountaintop before, but besides the ticket loss, the fools and stragglers I picked off didn't slow the enemy team down a bit. It was meaningless. My solution is to use the sniper rifle like an M4 with a bit more range, and do the same exact squad tactic of bounding between trenches. Now if only squad leaders would quit their one-dimensional whining about snipers having no place in combat...

[R-MOD]Jigsaw wrote:it decreases drastically (not sure on the exact figure but its more than 40%) when you bring your sights up as opposed to just firing from the hip.

This is one part of the deviation system I've always disliked. Why are we against hip firing? There is no 3d cross-hair, so why discourage it? PR players aren't really the types to mark a spot on their monitors.

I hate this 'feature' every time I have to waddle around like a duck with an AK47 trying to put suppressive fire on a close range target while moving. Because for some strange reason if your looking down the sight of a gun, you move faster crouched than you do walking upright. And trying to put suppressive fire on something even just a short distance away is ineffective unless you look down the sights. A couple shots might get close, but the recoil and deviation are so terrible compared to their scoped in counterparts, that the majority of your rounds spray in a large circle around the center of your screen. But, with your iron sights up you can pretty much put every round on a person sized target 20m away while sidestepping on full auto, barely moving any slower.

No lean, no cover system, no blind fire, no fastropes. As if the BF2 engine wasn't crappy enough when it comes to CQB, let's throw on a complicated sighting in system that rewards you with accuracy at the cost of your movement. I'm not saying firing from the hip should be deadly accurate while moving. But, it should be closer to what it is when you have your sights up.

Putting the deviation, recoil, & movement system into basic terms, I think the numbers are some thing like this...

(These numbers are my personal take on the deviation system, just my best guess at what the actual numbers would look like. Please don't take them as fact)
Standing from hip
100% movement
20% accurate while moving

Crouched from hip
85% movement
25% accurate while moving

Standing scoped
70% movement
90% accurate while moving

Crouched scoped
80% movement
95% accurate while moving

I don't think the hip fire accuracy numbers of 20, and 25% need to be the same as their 85 & 90% counterparts. But, It would be nice if they weren't so obviously nerfed. Something like the 60 or 70% area perhaps.

You can also see how when crouched, just a minimal movement penalty(from 80 to 85%) for scoping in comes with a massive increase in accuracy.(from 25 to 95%) You barely notice you're moving any slower, but your weapon is magically better. You still can't effectively use the sights that are now blocking half the screen, because of the wobble effect(which is a good thing) but, your bullets now fly straighter and the recoil is far less.

I hope this is taken as constructive criticism by the DEV team. I mean no offense towards all the work you guys do. PR is so much more than a few deviation numbers which are always changing. It's just one of those things I love to hate.

/rant

cipher wrote:Now if only squad leaders would quit their one-dimensional whining about snipers having no place in combat...

A sniper in a general infantry squad is useless for a number of reasons. He won't be able to use his radio, the SL is probably already carrying a laser designator, and most importantly his lack of firepower practically makes him a one man shortage in a firefight. Should that extra bit of range be required the marksman kit is there just for the task, capable of a substantial volume of fire at any range, the fully automatic ones even acting as extra LMG's if need be.

cipher wrote: Well that's not realistically useful at all, unless you're on a mumble server with a fully networked team (how common is that).

Actually there a few servers that promote mumble and you get a high level of appreciation running a squad, no matter the role. Sometimes you just need to know its "veteran peak time" as I like to call it, and it's not exactly hard to find considering it's either the timezone of UK or US.

Nevertheless, it sounds like a poor excuse not to mark the enemies, FOBs (and respective deployed assets) to your team. If they're not on mumble, mark on the minimap and then type it down.
How can that intel not be useful?!

cipher wrote:Don't get me wrong, I've went 12-1 hiding on a mountaintop before, but besides the ticket loss, the fools and stragglers I picked off didn't slow the enemy team down a bit. It was meaningless. My solution is to use the sniper rifle like an M4 with a bit more range, and do the same exact squad tactic of bounding between trenches. Now if only squad leaders would quit their one-dimensional whining about snipers having no place in combat...

And you expect to stop a full squad on your own? Do you expect a grenadier to do as well? Or any other?

This is the same reason why you're given a radio, if you're going to solo the very least inform your team that enemy squad is at x position. They're the ones that take care of these situations.

Not only are you giving poor excuses to why you're not cooperating, but it seems to me you don't even know how to use the sniper role effectively.

As for the not very smart comment regarding infantry SLs, I will leave that to Saarna.

I think the accuracy is acceptable at long ranges, but at close quarters the weapon accuracy is highly unrealistic.

ITT: People who don't use grenades to clear buildings and rooms.

As it stands i'd think to make it more realistic the following should happen:
- While walking your deviation timer only goes upto 3 seconds max, if you however press shift, or your sprint key it goes upto 6 seconds and stays that way for 1-2 mins.
- Recoil(not deviation) should be reduced on most/all rifles when in a crouch position (possible?)
- The severity of the suppression should change; when a bullet lands near you it shouldn;t be as blurry as when say a apc HEAT round or tank shell lands near you (possible?)
- Heavier guns should have a higher deviation (possible?) such as the american AR.

cipher wrote:I wasn't planning on posting anything else, but I gotta correct a few things. The video was the best I could find, but it still shows a lot of the differences. The targets were more than just 20 meters away, at least for the last few. They also took up to 3 seconds to ready their weapon, but in PR you have to wait up to 5 seconds after moving at the same pace as them

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f138-i ... ost1288295

They also fired shots with only half a second between them, double the speed of our PR soldier. I would look for videos with people that had formal training, but take my word for it; when the clock is running during competitions, people don't need even a full second to lay down accurate fire at a mere 25 meters. I think what people who have never shot a rifle before mistake, is how ridiculously easy it is to shoot a silhouette at 25 meters with iron sights even, let alone a low powered scope. At 15 meters, I can drop 5 bowling pins with a handgun the time it takes for the PR deviation to allow for a single accurate shot. And that's an object smaller than a human head (the knob at the top of the bowling pin is the aimpoint), to ring a metal silhouette at 25m would be much easier.

We're not even talking about 100 or 200m engagements. Those are rare in PR. Just crossing into an alley in Muttrah, a guy might pop out on the other side of the street, and you'll exchange 15 shots with him, all of them missing, till someone can't see because the ridiculous suppression effects blinds them and they end up dieing. The time to shoot from moving should be cut in half to 2.5 seconds, and the time between shots should go down to 0.5 seconds.

Camping is the most effective strategy as it is. That's why you'll always see my with a marksman or sniper rifle. I could care less what the squad leader's talking about; I'll just join another squad. If you try and clear out a building it turns into a hide-and-go seek game, with times where you know the other guy is on the other side of the wall, but also that if you try to rush him your gun will spray wildly at a distance of 10 meters and he'll drop you with his lower "deviation". Just not fun for me. I'd rather hang back behind lines and engage targets that show up.

As far as the prone thing goes, simply lengthening the time it takes for your gun to represent itself once you go prone would be more than enough. And it really doesn't need to be 5 seconds. Suggesting that a soldier would take that long because he has a backpack and is tired is nonsense.

All in all, I don't care at this point what they do with the deviation. Switching to medium range fighting solves all those problems. There's something to be said for the whole "trench warfare" style of play anyhow. The majority of military engagements don't involve much infantry movement in the first place.

5 seconds is the full wait time for long distance engagements, shorter engagements do not require this wait time (the deviation cone grows exponentially, closer to you the less weight time) . i find for sub 100m shooting, a wait time of around 3 seconds or less (depending on the range) is all thats needed.

at 25m in PR you do not need to wait, i do not and consistently gain large K/Ds .

if you take 15 shots to kill somebody in an alley... well.... why do i not have the luck of finding more people like you in PR? again, i dont want to sound like im waving my e-penis around but i would kill you two times over for missing me 15 times in an alley, and if i missed the average guy i come across 15 times, he would also kill me.

"I could care less what the squad leader's talking about; I'll just join another squad."

offtopic, but fyi, your the reason i despise the sniper kit and pray for its removal .

and again, in CQB/house fighting i move with my sights up (99% of the time ill have irons/red dot) and full auto in a controlled manner killing or being killed in the process, but either way , not having it turn into hide-and-go-seek.

i wish i get to play more people like you, as the people im fighting against normally do not have your troubles. nor do i.

i made a quick video a while ago:

http://www.xfire.com/video/21d6e6/

shooting 30m and less, full auto, with no wait time, running around like a retard and all my bursts (latency willing) would of killed somebody.

It's my fault for exaggerating, I suppose.

If you're seriously going to tell me you never have issues with clearing out a room using even an unscoped rifle, I don't know what to say. If you've never been prone and exchanged shots with another guy within 100m and missed repeatedly even though your crosshairs were lined up perfectly, I don't know what to say. As you said, I must just be terrible at this game.

I always try to play on servers that I know may have actual team coordination. But most of the time it never happens. In these cases, the sniper kit is useless. The fact that you want it removed is nothing short of entertaining, though. That reminds me of the old Counterstrike game where people would whine about campers because they get dropped by the guy in the bushes while they're runnin' & gunnin'. As for the idea that you can be a sniper and mark the map for your team...I wonder if you've ever actually tried to do this. All you're doing is putting up vague indications of contact that are invalid 30 seconds after they're put up. It just turns into a mass of redundant markers indicating the general area of hostile contact. It's even more irrelevant because everyone already know the enemy's over there; why else did you pick that position in the first place. The sniper's reconnaissance is meaningless without a full fledged mumble-operation running. Take my word for it.

As for the rest of it, a squad with 5 riflemen and a sniper has more firepower than a squad with 5 rifleman and a designated marksman. I'm not sure the marksman rifles even have more zoom than a ACOG. Try to think of it this way, in real life a designated marksman rifle has a real scope on it. The sniper rifles just simulate what an actual marksman rifle does. If someone storms our position, it's nothing to just pick another kit off the ground. There's nothing lost because if I wasn't using it, some guy would just be in the mountains with it screaming about how the medics keep reviving his kills. I know the comment about "forgetting what the squad leader says" must have flipped your switch, but I think we can agree that only 5% of games involve a squad leader that has any idea what they're doing...

The game simulates trench warfare with various factors like the suppression effect, the fact they kept the BF2 medic system, and the overdone deviation. What your xfire video didn't take into account is that if you crossed over the line of sight of a guy behind that building, you would be dropped before the full second elapsed and your sights came up. It's best to let them come to you in this game, unless you get a thrill out of being the squad getting chewed up and constantly whining about how your team "isn't doing anything". Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with that except the frustrating methods that are used and the fact that it penalizes people that had nothing to do with the bunny hoping or whatever else. I think if they left it be, and focused on the community side of PR, with things like training modes and more structure on the server side to encourage team networking, the same result could be had, while keeping rush tactics viable.