C4 vs caches

[A.Wickens]

I find the use of C4 to be perfectly fine. It means that as an insurgent I cannot simply stay near the cache and wait for the blufor to assault. Instead I have to push out beyond the cache >25 meters to set up a defense to keep squads who may use C4 at a distance. Also the presence of the CE kit means I and hopefully the rest of the team will be more alert than had it not been present. Also once you have found and killed that combat engineer the insurgents can take it back to main and make bomb bikes that can easily knock out the blufors armor and FOBs making the weapon deadly in both hands.

C4 also helps the blufor as many caches are simply unbelievable in their positioning and a team can get stuck on a single cache leading them to failure. With C4 you can get rid of that cache that has hampered the team and move on to a less frustrating cache.

It means that as an insurgent I cannot simply stay near the cache and wait for the blufor to assault.

Why would that be wrong, wouldn't that simply be providing tight security to a perhaps exposed cache. Is it unrealistic or gamey to have at least one 'guard' in attendance of a valuable objective.

Instead I have to push out beyond the cache >25 meters to set up a defense to keep squads who may use C4 at a distance.

Yup a valid tactic but generally only solid when you retain someone with eyes on the prize as it were. Providing a solid 360 degree perimeter at 25 m from the objective actually takes a fair amount of man power.

With C4 you can get rid of that cache that has hampered the team and move on to a less frustrating cache

That is not a valid argument for using a gamey tactic, I think difficult caches are there to provide a challenge, not merely an excuse to use an exploit so you can move onto something less 'challenging'.

Basically the lone CE tactic exploits not only the broken game engine treatment of C4 but also the sparsely populated maps and merely feeds into 'Oh lolz another neato Ninja vid where I so sneakly walk past two people after racing to the cache location". How is that much different to those who attempt to learn the locations off by heart or spend half their time solo hunting unknowns. Maybe it is some people's idea of fun, certainly not mine, bears no relation to teamwork or evolved tactics.

Hopefully when we reach higher player counts this kind of old tat will become less feasible and relegated to the bin where it belongs.

[English_infidel]

I find the use of C4 to be perfectly fine. It means that as an insurgent I cannot simply stay near the cache and wait for the blufor to assault. Instead I have to push out beyond the cache
With C4 you can get rid of that cache that has hampered the team and move on to a less frustrating cache.

how frustrating is it for the ins with a crappy ak against crow hmvs and cas ? thats there only chance of getting anywhere in the game. like i said before blufor got the kit and the assets if you cant take a cache down without c4 your squad/team needs a headshake.only yesterday i had a 1 man lone wolf in my squad take 2 down on ramel, i said how wrong it was and left the squad. considering what blufor has vs ins kit wise why cant you just clear and hold the area till you can foss it ? dont get me wrong i wike to spank the ins as much as anyone but i think its a snidey way to win.if you dont clear sed ceche withhold the counter attack which will happen how do you deserve to take it? playing as ins is hard enough without being cheap shotted with c4 .

[Rudd]

Perhaps a fix is to increase the length of the C4 firing animation, so you have to spend like 30seconds there

[MaSSive]

Perhaps a fix is to increase the length of the C4 firing animation, so you have to spend like 30seconds there

Either that, or what I think the better fix is, to remove the cache damage from C4, or increase the number of C4 packages needed to destroy it to higher numbers. Preferably more than two.

About the people that approve this kind of tactics. Do you ever play as insurgent? I find it more fun to play on this side as I like unconventional tactics more than any optic sites, tanks, or helicopters. If you ever played on insurgent side, how can you ever be for this puny tactic.

I agree C4 should be able to take the cache out, but not in this kind of style. Once you clear the zone, place C4 on it, retreat to safe distance and take it out. I'm thinking that it should involve 2 CE, and make the cache destroyable only with two c4 ( or 4 inc grenades ) which will require two CE. Also make the blast of cache equal to Jdam detonation, so anyone that is close or in the radius will die.

[saXoni]

Either that, or what I think the better fix is, to remove the cache damage from C4, or increase the number of C4 packages needed to destroy it to higher numbers. Preferably more than two.

If that's the only two opportunities, I'd go for the latter.

[MaSSive]

If that's the only two opportunities, I'd go for the latter.

Ye. If you read the rest of my post above I explained it further. I always re-read my posts and write some moar

[kingofthreads]

It means that as an insurgent I cannot simply stay near the cache and wait for the blufor to assault.

Why would that be wrong, wouldn't that simply be providing tight security to a perhaps exposed cache. Is it unrealistic or gamey to have at least one 'guard' in attendance of a valuable objective.

Instead I have to push out beyond the cache >25 meters to set up a defense to keep squads who may use C4 at a distance.

Yup a valid tactic but generally only solid when you retain someone with eyes on the prize as it were. Providing a solid 360 degree perimeter at 25 m from the objective actually takes a fair amount of man power.

With C4 you can get rid of that cache that has hampered the team and move on to a less frustrating cache

That is not a valid argument for using a gamey tactic, I think difficult caches are there to provide a challenge, not merely an excuse to use an exploit so you can move onto something less 'challenging'.

Basically the lone CE tactic exploits not only the broken game engine treatment of C4 but also the sparsely populated maps and merely feeds into 'Oh lolz another neato Ninja vid where I so sneakly walk past two people after racing to the cache location". How is that much different to those who attempt to learn the locations off by heart or spend half their time solo hunting unknowns. Maybe it is some people's idea of fun, certainly not mine, bears no relation to teamwork or evolved tactics.

Hopefully when we reach higher player counts this kind of old tat will become less feasible and relegated to the bin where it belongs.

1. It's wrong in the fact that I see 2-3 squads sitting in a 10 meter perimeter around a cache. That's not tight security that is just lazy defense. This is especially noticeable with a cache that has a single entrance which the blufor funnels through. An example is the mansion in fallujah where the insurgents just stay underground and sit there and it tends to take quite a lot of tickets and turns from fun and challenging to frustration.

2. It isn't hard to maintain a defense beyond 25 meters. I can understand setting up 1 to 2 people on the cache but I have seen 2-3 squads sitting extremely close to the cache which is ridiculous.

3. So you think dieing multiple times under the mansion on Fallujah or in a korengal cave is fun? I can understand trying a decent team assault might be interesting but many times those end up getting completely fucked and losing hundreds of tickets especially in the hard to reach spots. Also your idea of lonewolf CEs is misplaced as many times the CE operates with the squad and is not used as a simple lone wolf.

how frustrating is it for the ins with a crappy ak against crow hmvs and cas ? thats there only chance of getting anywhere in the game. like i said before blufor got the kit and the assets if you cant take a cache down without c4 your squad/team needs a headshake.only yesterday i had a 1 man lone wolf in my squad take 2 down on ramel, i said how wrong it was and left the squad. considering what blufor has vs ins kit wise why cant you just clear and hold the area till you can foss it ? dont get me wrong i wike to spank the ins as much as anyone but i think its a snidey way to win.if you dont clear sed ceche withhold the counter attack which will happen how do you deserve to take it? playing as ins is hard enough without being cheap shotted with c4 .

I find the AKs to be far better than the American or British weapons especially in close range. Crow Humvees and CAS can be an issue but if you have an SPG or AA they tend to be far less of a threat or are just free tickets and cool explosions. Also the idea of "we must clear hold and burn the cache" is an easy way to lose hundreds of tickets and is just a fast way toward breaking your keyboard in half.

[PFunk]

Maybe if there were way fewer ridiculously poor placed caches it would be ideal. Really, if you can get to the wall outside the cache itself then whats the difference? The realism is out the window when you're not meant to capture the cache but instead try and destroy it. Being on the outside of the wall versus in the actual room is a pretty slight distinction in my book.

Fact is that no real life insurgents are going to be placing high value caches in places where you can just walk up to them and be a foot away on the other side of a mud wall. It would be in the middle of a compound and you'd have to get through at least one wall and a courtyard or something, or at least thats how you'd place it if you were facing the kind of situation this game presents.

I look at a cache like it should be a castle keep and they always put those in the middle of defences. A lot of caches are in bad spots that you'd never choose to defend. The flip side to this is that if you only had caches in the best defensive positions it would invalidate most of the map for cache placement.

Its not so much a matter of it being too gamey, since there are a lot of INS tactics that are just as gamey as this. It is however to my mind an argument about the necessity of either allowing it, curbing it, or outright eliminating it for the sake of balancing gameplay.

Is it too easy to just C4 a cache when facing a good opponent? Are claims that its a cheap overused tactic really just people rationalizing their team's poor performance? Can there be a middle ground figured out that would curb the more exploitative elements of C4 usage while still allowing it to have its place in BLUFOR tactics?

Fact is if you can secure the area and know that the cache is in a room, well then why not just blow the side off that building and kill it like that? If you lost or are facing an almost certain loss of tickets by storming the room that someone is holed up in then its just as relevant to the argument of 'is this realistic' to say that storming that room would be foolish if you had the option available to blow it up.

I've seen Iraq combat footage where soldiers may be in a house in Falluja for instance and they know enemies are in there too and rather than clear the place out they exfil and get the LAV or M1 to blow it to pieces. This is just as 'realistic' as deliberately not being suicidal, in fact it would be suicide to say that they can't utilize demolitions to get at a dug in enemy who has all the advantages if you go in through the door. C4 would represent the real ability of Coalition Forces to utilize their armor and air to demolish known enemy positions that they don't want nor need to clear room by room.

I don't see it as cut and dried. Its a balance issue and as I've said above there are instances where you can say that C4 is the more realistic alternative to the usual rush tactics of flooding an insurgent nest that is what people do when they don't have C4 anyway. It is also spammy and unrealistic in others.

The real question is whether one outweighs the other and if so whether there can be a change that can bring equilibrium to the tactic.

[40mmrain]

It's hopelessly unfair sometimes, and brilliantly perfect some others.

Sometimes it's totally impossible to defend from C4 through certain walls, etc. Sometimes players resort to strapping c4 onto a light transport and blowing themselves up. This results in indefensible caches, which is terrible gameplay.

other times, a skilled 2 man operator team with c4 sneaking into the cache area through various stealth techniques is a legitimate strategy thats fun as hell to pull off.

[Murphy]

I just find those "Lone guy C4ed a well defended cache" funny, I'm sorry but if one guy can get through your defenses they were pretty shitty.

Sure it's blast might be a bit exaggerated, but the man planting it is exposed and either the defenders are dumb or not paying attention and the cache goes down in a boom. If anything make the blast radius smaller so the CE has to get closer and get better at defending against lonewolf players.

[Wicca]

I just find those "Lone guy C4ed a well defended cache" funny, I'm sorry but if one guy can get through your defenses they were pretty shitty.

Sure it's blast might be a bit exaggerated, but the man planting it is exposed and either the defenders are dumb or not paying attention and the cache goes down in a boom. If anything make the blast radius smaller so the CE has to get closer and get better at defending against lonewolf players.

that is not the point. the game mecanich should not promote such behaviour. PR is not about lonewolfing. So obviously if there is a element in game that makes Lonewolfing a valid tactic, it should be counterd to require teamwork.

Stop thinking like a tactician and start thinking like a strategist Murphy. This is not about how many caches you or anyone else can get, its about how good the mod can be, and will be.

[Brainlaag]

Where have you been the past years Murphy? You can't demand from public gamers to organize a full scale defense, thats not gonna happen. In events and tourneys there was never such an issue with ninja tactics because the teams were skilled and prepared from ground up. Nevertheless PR has to work out on open public games without major time investment in teamtrainings and organization. Insurgency currently lacks that, one good player on Blufor can change the battle course drastically.

You surely get a few squads/individuals to defend it properly but one single experienced player can slip through. Defending demands a lot more preparation and skill, than the use of simple stealth tactics every vet has.

[AquaticPenguin]

I respectfully disagree. My playstyle is about fun, and I have fun through completing objectives and winning.

Thought I'd go back to this point. Whilst it may be fun for you, it's just tedious when you're playing insurgents, I've seen quite a few rounds where the only movement blufor has made is to send in a jeep+CE in between the continuous mortar fire. You can have fun, but surely you can do it without taking the fun out of the game for the other team.

It's a tactic that requires little effort, but requires a great deal of co-ordination from opfor for them to effectively counter it, often bringing games to a stalemate when there's no other caches to attack (especially with lower player counts).

[A.Wickens]

Thought I'd go back to this point. Whilst it may be fun for you, it's just tedious when you're playing insurgents, I've seen quite a few rounds where the only movement blufor has made is to send in a jeep+CE in between the continuous mortar fire. You can have fun, but surely you can do it without taking the fun out of the game for the other team.

It's a tactic that requires little effort, but requires a great deal of co-ordination from opfor for them to effectively counter it, often bringing games to a stalemate when there's no other caches to attack (especially with lower player counts).

Bang on target, great post!

[saXoni]

I honestly couldn't care less if the opposite team is having a shit round. As long as my squad and I are having fun, that's fine with me.

[Navo]

Fix the gamemode, not just one of the mechanics that make it broken.

[Mouthpiece]

I honestly couldn't care less if the opposite team is having a shit round. As long as my squad and I are having fun, that's fine with me.

I think this mentality is why people are saying that "PR is dying" (of course it's not dying, but the some part of the community isn't as friendly and are more egoistic and self-centered than earlier). I see more and more locked squads, less people interested in filling the gaps (instead fighting their own battles), less people having interest in good balance and fair play. And I'm not even talking about squad lvl tactics; the lack that is (the amount of "tard rushes" i've done following an unwise SL's order; yes, they even said literally: "let's tard rush."). People who have fun in their little circle often forget about team and such things as being open to new people. They just see themselves, "us against them" if broked down to atoms. In my humble opinion it's not a good attitude. You have to ask yourself: "What would Wicca think?"

/rantmode off

[SGT.Ice]

I don't particularly mind it either, though I just don't like it dropped from helicopters etc

You must of been on muttrah city that day I dropped C4/Mines from the huey and left a graveyard at chokepoint then. Mmmm those 24 kills.

LAV-3 is no a stryker btw brain.

[Brainlaag]

LAV-3 is no a stryker btw brain.

Facepalm... I've put up the assets of the alternative layer (Canadians) as an example and added the standard US Army asset in brackets to make it understandable. And FYI G-Wagons aren't Humvees either, as the G-Wagon the German Mercedes transport jeep is.

Next time I'll make sure to fit everything into a proper sentence to make it understandable even for "special" people like you .

I honestly couldn't care less if the opposite team is having a shit round. As long as my squad and I are having fun, that's fine with me.

So you still feel rather well when you know the opposing team is getting plagued by griefers and new players? Is that what you expect from a competitive game? An easy victory? For me losing by 400 tickets is just as bad as steamrolling the enemy and winning by 400 ticket, both ways usually lead to boredom.

Also following your logic, there wouldn't be any "Transport, logistics, mortars or defense" squads, as those are all boring roles and only influence the teams performance but hardly ever add to your squad's "fun".

[CommunistComma]

Fix the gamemode, not just one of the mechanics that make it broken.

You fix the gamemode by fixing the mechanics.
Derp.

as for SGT. Ice.