AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

[Mongolian_dude]

Hitting a LZR box with a LZR guided ATGM needs to work every time, people. Hitting a LZR box isn't about good or bag gunners, but reducing the splash damage to 0 or very low levels can mean that this system is inefficient, unrealistic and effectively broken.

With that said, theres a argument that choices 1-2 or perhaps 1-3 shouldn't be in the poll. I think it's something further testing should clarify.


...mongol...

[Felix]

I think that you shouldn't be able to hit lased targets on every shot as this would promote skilled gunners over not skilled.
Therefore i voted 25% as it is balanced and somewhat realistic.

[D.Busby]

I meant to vote for 50% instead of 75% - so my bad.

But IMO 50% should be fair game.
Simply because of the fact that apache's etc are designed to kill armour, and to provide ATG support.

Now I'm definately not an expert. But when you have a 20lb missle coming at you, travelling at speeds of around 900MPH, you would think that splash damage would have an effect on armour.

With the way it currently is atm, you've got a better chance killing armour with a TOW/HAT. Then with an attack heli.
So with the extra increase in damage I reckon it'l be better all round.
But thats just my input

[Mikemonster]

I know that a few people have mentioned the warhead size of a Heli missile vs a Jet missile but here is some extra info to make a decision on (game-play aside):

AGM-114 Hellfire Warhead: 9kg
AGM-65 Maverick Warhead: 57 kg (A/B/C), 136 kg (E/F/G/H/J/K models)

(From Wiki).

[CastleBravo]

I like the idea of direct hits required to damage armor with manual guided missiles, but a reasonable (i.e. than in .9x) sized splash radius for missiles homing on a lase.

Also, is it possible to force the GTLD to stay on the target while the weapon is in flight? Maybe make the lase only last a split second but give the GTLD a fast "fire rate"? This would require the missile to be capable of acquiring a laser target mid flight though.

Any chance of ever seeing the fire and forget variants of some of these missiles (such as the AGM-114L MMW seeker and the AGM-65D IIR Maverick)? An AH-64D with a couple lock-on fire-and-forget AGM-114L that had the fire control point of view as the longbow radar on top of the rotor would be lots of fun for flying low and using terrain masking.

[Rhino]

Also, is it possible to force the GTLD to stay on the target while the weapon is in flight? Maybe make the lase only last a split second but give the GTLD a fast "fire rate"? This would require the missile to be capable of acquiring a laser target mid flight though.

Doing this in the way you have described would make the missile impact the ground somewhere in the middle of the spotter and the target (at best) because that would be the average area the targets would be in, that's if the missile could lock on and see it at all and also ignoring the problems of a pilot trying to lock onto the target too.

What we have tried in the past was trying to make a dummy explosion effect of a dummy projectile, fired by the SOFLAM spawn a laser target so when the dummy projectile impacted on the surface of a target, the laser would be spawned which would also mean the dummy projectile could travel at super fast speeds unlike our current one BUT we never managed to get this to work due to networkable problems
Although we haven't looked into this method for some time now but ye, even with it working this way, unless we made the laser last for quite some time (like it dose on the current system) which would mean the spotter wouldn't have to constantly paint the target, we would still have problems for the pilot getting a lock on the target, without letting him being able to fire the missile in a constantly armed state, which basically means he doesn't need to bother with getting a lock for it to track a target.

Any chance of ever seeing the fire and forget variants of some of these missiles (such as the AGM-114L MMW seeker and the AGM-65D IIR Maverick)? An AH-64D with a couple lock-on fire-and-forget AGM-114L that had the fire control point of view as the longbow radar on top of the rotor would be lots of fun for flying low and using terrain masking.

I'm sorry but how would this be any different from our current "laser targeted" fire and forget system ingame other than the camera view for an Apache?

[CastleBravo]

I'm sorry but how would this be any different from our current "laser targeted" fire and forget system ingame other than the camera view for an Apache?

It wouldn't require a lase; the missile is capable of acquiring and tracking the target autonomously without a laser designator painting it. Not all Hellfires are capable of this; only the Lima model Hellfire has the MMW seeker in it. Obviously this would be very powerful and would remove some of the need for teamwork, so it should only be used sparingly on certain maps, but this is a real capability that any AH-64D with the Longbow radar, or fixed-wing jet with an AGM-65D can use.

For the semi-active laser homing missiles, what if all vehicles had a "dead" laser target on them by default that the GLTD somehow "heals", but will otherwise "bleed-out" very quickly if not getting lased. Obviously this wouldn't work for lasing a spot on the ground, so there would have to be a way to build both functions into the GLTD.

[Rhino]

It wouldn't require a lase; the missile is capable of acquiring and tracking the target autonomously without a laser designator painting it. Not all Hellfires are capable of this; only the Lima model Hellfire has the MMW seeker in it. Obviously this would be very powerful and would remove some of the need for teamwork, so it should only be used sparingly on certain maps, but this is a real capability that any AH-64D with the Longbow radar, or fixed-wing jet with an AGM-65D can use.

For the semi-active laser homing missiles, what if all vehicles had a "dead" laser target on them by default that the GLTD somehow "heals", but will otherwise "bleed-out" very quickly if not getting lased.

I see what you mean but this isn't possible in BF2 without sticking laser targets on all our vehicles, vBF2 style which would mean all our air to ground weapons would lock onto them without the need for them to be painted in much the same way as how our AA missiles lock onto jets.

And before you ask, no it isn't possible to make a new "target group". In BF2 we only have three target types to play with, "heat" which is used by air to air or ground to air weapons, "laser" which is used by air to ground weapons, and "unique" which is used by the hellfire etc in "Laser Guided mode" and can't be placed on a vehicle or projectile and the projectile fired from the weapon will only track its own unique target, which is why if you fly two Apaches next to each other and they both fire hellfires at different targets the missile targets don't confuse each other.

[CastleBravo]

Ah, thanks for taking the time to explain all of that.

[Spuz36]

I see what you mean but this isn't possible in BF2

This hasn't stopped you folk in the past

I know the fire rate of the missiles has been changed in the past. Is it currently set to a delay or is it button mashable? Enjoyed the precision needed with a couple second delay a few releases ago. This required more thought on if CAS could handle it alone, or if a laze designation was needed to make a good kill.

Next to splash damage it was a pretty big factor in CAS-ability.

[Raic]

If CAS can affect the strike then make the damage of misses minimal. If the CAS cannot affect the hit, be it with position or angle of approach, the splash damage should be a little higher.

[ExeTick]

Lazes usually make me miss the target. lazes are a little bit above the vehicle and that make the hellfire land behind and do minimal damage. to kill it with LT missile you need to come in on a perfect altitude to kill it.

[MaSSive]

Voted 25% but this could depend on type of the missile, as stated previously, and type of the vehicle.

So near miss on light armored vehicles, such as BRDM2/Hummer etc, would at least kill the crew, or driver and render vehicle useless, flipped, or damaged to the point there's no repair.

Medium armored such as some types of APCs would make maybe 2 near missed tracking the vehiclle while any next would kill it.

MBTs - 3 near misses and tank is tracked, fourth is a critical damage, only bailout will save you.

Something like that.

[Killer2354]

Wait... if the missiles are different in code wise, why not make the LT missile do enough splash damage to kill if it gets a near miss because of the way lazes work in BF2 and keep the LG missiles as is? In theory, that should make it win-win since you need skill to kill with a LG while you're guaranteed at least to almost, if not kill a vehicle if you fired on a laze.

[Psyrus]

Wait... if the missiles are different in code wise, why not make the LT missile do enough splash damage to kill if it gets a near miss because of the way lazes work in BF2 and keep the LG missiles as is? In theory, that should make it win-win since you need skill to kill with a LG while you're guaranteed at least to almost, if not kill a vehicle if you fired on a laze.

This is actually a pretty brilliant idea IMO, it sorts out both problems at once! And encourages teamwork at the same time

[Rhino]

Wait... if the missiles are different in code wise, why not make the LT missile do enough splash damage to kill if it gets a near miss because of the way lazes work in BF2 and keep the LG missiles as is? In theory, that should make it win-win since you need skill to kill with a LG while you're guaranteed at least to almost, if not kill a vehicle if you fired on a laze.

Its an idea that's been talked about before but not a route we want to take. Having the same missile magically do more damage because its being fired in a different tracking mode just doesn't make sense

From what I've seen and experienced of the Laser Targeted missiles so far is this isn't actually much of a problem, with most missiles striking the target directly, even from jets. I will admit I haven't seen too many and haven't gunned from a chopper in v1.0, but all of my AtG missiles from jets I've fired, and seen directed from both Choppers and Jets have hit, with only seeing one miss, which I'm pretty sure was an AtG missile from a jet, when I was in a tank
And tbh, that kinda hit rate represents what you have in r/l too as these missiles do miss quite a bit in r/l too

On top of this there have been some developments from Mats391 in the community modding forums with making more effective lasers, which is where the problem really lies
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-p ... asers.html

[Celestial1]

Rhino;1949236']On top of this there have been some developments from Mats391 in the community modding forums with making more effective lasers, which is where the problem really lies
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-p ... asers.html

I think refining the laze system itself would be the best if it was feasible. Alongside Mats391's changes, if we could figure out a way to fix the lazes floating over the vehicles when they are lazed, we'd be much, much better off.

If all else fails, I'd say 50-75% damage if within like 2 meters would be pretty fair. I'm not sure how far the missiles usually miss, but the ones that I have survived from lazes being wonky were extremely, extremely close to me anyway.

[chrisweb89]

Rhino, the lases and LT mode is still very broken. I have seen it from pilot, and spotter view against tanks and even APCs, and they are not efficient at all. Only time to use LT as a chopper gunner would be on light light targets, or AA that is locking you. Anything else and its a waste of time because even with firing 2 you still may not get the kill on a perfectly good lase.

[MaSSive]

Well you dont lase so it sticks above vehicle..that's your bad. If vehicle is on the move laze in front of his path of moving and if its stick on its top, laze again or it will likely miss the target.

Usually lazing tracks very low from the side works for me, but when I gun for a gunship I dont rely on lazes at all. Usually its a waste of ammo, since no pubbies can laze effectively, so I rely on my own manual guidance.

With jets its a whole different thing. Rather than using a missile on the laze I use LGB, so if doesn't kill a tank or APC it will damage it severely.

One thing is for sure needed to change. Lazers should not be visible as target boxes by the one whos lazing. Something like Arma system of laze is when you just can see a red dot on the target if its closer than XX meters. This vanilla target box is to arcadish and can be seen by enemy. Also lazers dont take sides, so often smacktars laze their own blue guys for the lols, and reckless pilots does the damage.

Looking forward to see the change.

[Mongolian_dude]

Rhino;1949236']Its an idea that's been talked about before but not a route we want to take. Having the same missile magically do more damage because its being fired in a different tracking mode just doesn't make sense

From what I've seen and experienced of the Laser Targeted missiles so far is this isn't actually much of a problem, with most missiles striking the target directly, even from jets. I will admit I haven't seen too many and haven't gunned from a chopper in v1.0, but all of my AtG missiles from jets I've fired, and seen directed from both Choppers and Jets have hit, with only seeing one miss, which I'm pretty sure was an AtG missile from a jet, when I was in a tank
And tbh, that kinda hit rate represents what you have in r/l too as these missiles do miss quite a bit in r/l too

On top of this there have been some developments from Mats391 in the community modding forums with making more effective lasers, which is where the problem really lies
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-p ... asers.html

Sorry Rhino, but it looks like giving the LT and LG Helfires different damage values is the only way to make the weapons act realistically if you insist on giving LG an small splash damage.


...mongol...