AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

How Much Splash Damage should AtG AT Missiles Have vs Armoured Vehicles?

Little to None, as per the v1.0 Open Beta
32
21%
~25% so it takes 4 near misses to kill a Tank (less vs APCs)
39
26%
~50% so that it 2 near misses to kill a Tank (less vs APCs)
39
26%
~75% so it takes 1.5 near misses to kill a Tank (~1 near miss to kill an APC)
21
14%
100% so a near miss will kill any vehicle within a 5m (possibly smaller) radius
14
9%
A Near Miss should kill any Vehicle within a 10m radius like in v0.98
7
5%
 
Total votes: 152

Rhino
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 47909
Joined: 2005-12-13 20:00

AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by Rhino »

Hey all,

Another little topic and poll on this change.

In the v1.0 Open Beta, we made Air to Ground (AtG) Anti-Tank (AT) Missiles only significantly damage/destroy armoured vehicles, such as Tanks and APC if they scored a direct hit, while soft targets such as jeeps, trucks and infantry would still get damaged or killed/destroyed by an AtG AT Missile exploding near them.

This is to simulate the missiles real life capabilities, as these missiles have a shaped charge warhead, designed to out all the power of that warhead into one spot in front of it, to penetrate directly though a tanks armour on a direct hit. If this missile hits the ground then 90% of the warheads energy goes directly into the ground, just like if it was trying to dig its way though the tanks armour, instead all it succeeds in doing is digging a massive crater and throwing up some debris which if it hits the armour of a tank or APC, is just going to bounce right off with causing a minor scratch to the paintwork at best, although can kill a person or significantly damage a light armoured vehicle that's very close to the initial explosion.

This change however has sparked up a bit of a debate on if this is the best change for gameplay since in real life, the targeting systems on jets and choppers are far more advanced and can much more easily guarantee a direct hit than we can ingame, and its quite hard for a spotter to get his laser target to "stick" directly on a tank/APC as most of the time they seem to stick a bit off to the side, which means if a missile is locking onto that lase which is slightly off the target, then it will probably miss the target and will only strike next to it.
On the other side of the argument many players don't want to go back to the old system where a missile can explode 10m from a Tank or APC and destroy it outright with very little skill involved. As you can see in this video below at 1:15, the missile detonated miles away from the target after a quick twitch fire after the gunner finally saw it, and still managed to kill it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cklxPjW ... page#t=75s
One thing to keep in mind is that the Air to Ground Missiles carried by jets are generally much larger than the ones carried by helicopters, which means they have a bigger splash damage radius, and cause more damage, but can only really be fired at lazed targets. The above damage values in the polls is also as per the smaller AtG Missiles on Choppers such as the Hellfire.


What we (the Devs) are currently thinking (before this poll has gone live) is a slight compromise between the two, rewarding direct hits with a kill as per the v1.0 Open Beta setup (front hit on a tank = burning, rear/top hit = destroyed) but also making these missiles have "some" splash damage when hitting very close to an armoured vehicle, under 5ms, but only doing something like taking off 1/2 the HP of tank, so you need two near misses to kill a Tank or APC, but still killing soft skinned vehicles and infantry with a near miss. This way it still takes skill while also keeping it semi-realistic, more realistic than post releases but also making the survivability of ground forces a bit higher too from before, but still a skilled pilot and gunner with spotters will still have a very powerful tool at their disposal when used right :)

But before we make any changes we thought it would be best to post this poll to see what you, the community think and we will go from there :D

Cheers!
Last edited by Rhino on 2013-07-15 07:06, edited 2 times in total.
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smgunsftw
Posts: 242
Joined: 2012-10-26 21:43

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by smgunsftw »

I agree with the 2 near misses solution, it's balanced, realistic, and efficient. It allows both the vehicle a change to take cover and the gunner to take out his target.
Mongolian_dude
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 6088
Joined: 2006-10-22 22:24

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by Mongolian_dude »

I think it should be a certified kill within 5m, Option 5.

This is to ensure that vehicles which have been successfully lasered are destroyed by homing LZR targeted ATGMs. I witnessed this fail on several occasions during the Beta, where ATGMs detonated when reaching the LZR that was attached to a MBT, leaving it moderately damaged and shaken, but alive nonetheless.
It needs to be a certain kill in this situation.


...mongol...
Military lawyers engaged in fierce legal action.

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qubolo
Posts: 59
Joined: 2010-12-01 23:54

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by qubolo »

There is an easy fix for that 2 miss near hit, you just fire 10 missiles at once, and they blow shit up wherever its lazed. People do that. in that case you would have to limit the amount of missiles carried by cas helis.
Tarranauha200
Posts: 1166
Joined: 2010-08-28 20:57

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by Tarranauha200 »

3 near misses to kill a tank, 1 to kill/disable APC would be best in my opinion.
Prevtzer
Posts: 648
Joined: 2012-06-13 12:19

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by Prevtzer »

How about this:
-Regular missiles stay as they are in 1.0 beta
-Laser guided missiles have splash damage to compensate for bad targeting system

That would kinda work on both levels, don't you think?
saXoni
Posts: 4180
Joined: 2010-10-17 21:20

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by saXoni »

Prevtzer wrote:How about this:
-Regular missiles stay as they are in 1.0 beta
-Laser guided missiles have splash damage to compensate for bad targeting system

That would kinda work on both levels, don't you think?
I'm guessing that would force the chopper to have e.g. 4 LG and 4 LT as there would be two different types of missiles.
Henrique_Dalben
Posts: 361
Joined: 2012-10-05 18:30

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by Henrique_Dalben »

Prevtzer wrote:How about this:
-Regular missiles stay as they are in 1.0 beta
That would kinda work on both levels, don't you think?
I'll assume you meant unguided rockets. And no, they're not OK, those Hydras are almost useless to kill infantry, they should by like in 0.98.
KaB
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 1016
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Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by KaB »

I'd say little to none. Asking the attack choppers to be steady in order to get armoured vehicles with LG sounds pretty balanced.
Alex6714
Posts: 3900
Joined: 2007-06-15 22:47

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by Alex6714 »

KaB wrote:I'd say little to none. Asking the attack choppers to be steady in order to get armoured vehicles with LG sounds pretty balanced.
That would be fair, if they could use their real life range advantage against armoured vehicle cannons and AT weapons.
"Today's forecast calls for 30mm HE rain with a slight chance of hellfires"


"oh, they're fire and forget all right...they're fired then they forget where the target is"
=-=kittykiller
Posts: 282
Joined: 2012-02-12 18:43

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by =-=kittykiller »

in this poll will we be fiddling the statistics?

i.e. the poll has a clear winner but it seems many more exist in a minority. will we allow the minorities to take over? thats just undemocratic!!!

anyways bitching aside this is the 2nd most popular.
~50% so that it 2 near misses to kill a Tank (less vs APCs)

i dont want one near miss to kill a apc! no freaking way. 8 Guys in a APC nuked just like in 0.98 i dont want this at all. 18 tickets for just staying high.

the way it was in BETA was fine maybe add a little more splash to compensate for no stabilization.

the BF2 engine is about rock paper scissors. PR is loosley based on this.

May i link u to virusilis Videos of CAS on BETA he still dominates not just cuz he is very good but because its so simple to do. Do not make this any easier !!!!

A tank shud require a solid hit. A apc isnt a small tank its a game Dynamic dont ruin it with one near miss kills 8 men. If they want to rush a flag fine let them take a Truck.

(Personally im in favour of a near/far miss disables a truck. so u get a chance to jump out.
all this is moot anyways)

if you just watch virus dominate in the havok . SEE LINK BELOW

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f112-p ... eplay.html

what does it add to the other 48 players per team, . JUST RUINS APC TRANS. IMO APC TRANS NEEDS THIS.
=MeRk= Morbo5131
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-11-04 23:55

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by =MeRk= Morbo5131 »

I voted 25% but I'm happy with any of the top 3 options, preferably minimum splash. Good gunners shouldn't have too much trouble hitting static targets, and the Hellfires are currently devastating against grouped up infantry.
PoisonBill
Posts: 682
Joined: 2010-10-11 14:25

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by PoisonBill »

I think 25%, the missle should scare the tank crewmen or track them. If it's too buggy then go for the bare minimal.
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viirusiiseli
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Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by viirusiiseli »

In my mind the choice is obvious. Have JET AT missiles kill a vehicle if you hit it in a 5-10 meter radius. This is because it's very hard to get direct hits by firing at a laser. Be it a 2-seater or an A10 it's a slim chance your lase missile hits armor directly.

Have HELI AT missiles kill armored vehicles (APC, TANK, IFV) with direct hits and make quite small but noticeable damage from near misses. This is because it is ridiculously easy to hit a vehicle with helicopter's manually aimed missiles.
yellodeath
Posts: 30
Joined: 2013-04-23 00:59

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by yellodeath »

needs to be no splash damage, CAS helos need to have a very relegated role, and in .981 it basically does everything and has no problems leading a team to victory even if the armor squads or even INF squads are horrible, it goes against encouraging teamwork and CAS squads are basically free to go roam and kill everything that moves.

Now with no splash damage, intel is extremely important and knowing where your target is , is key to taking it out. The current system basically allows CAS helos to constantly spam hellfires until the armor/target crew is dead, as they can not do anything to counter it besides scream on mumble for friendly cas/AA, which one of which should be nearby if you're smart.

With no splash, armor crews will still be running around like decapitated chickens if they dont have proper defense against CAS helos, but they have a LOT more chance to actually fight back/maneuver/run/call for backup if the enemy gunner has to land a DIRECT hit, as opposed to just spraying and praying (which mind you would not work in real life, you can't fire LGMs in rapid succession like you can in PR)

CAS choppers need to be just that, close air support, not "go anywhere on the map gods of death"

but yeah^^^^ jets should have good splash on their missiles as you can't even dumbfire them(well, single crew missiles like AS10 or whatnot...tornado kedges/brimstones are fine with splash too) so a laze is necessary, whereas a laze for choppers is nice but with a competent crew - completely unnecessary
40mmrain
Posts: 1271
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Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by 40mmrain »

A slight buff vs unarmoured targets is all. If you cant hit armour directly, aim better.

I agree with virus on the topic of the ASMs fired from jets, theyre much larger and should be splashing like they always did. The utility of the 2 seat fighter bombers was the hyper maneuverable brimstones and equivalent that acted like bombs. The bombs on the fighter bombers are very challenging to use, as they dont guide like the fighter's, so splashing infantry, large targets, or hitting armour while flying at ~1200 speed units diminishes their usefulness.

I'd take the fighter over the fighter-bomber in 1.0, it's ground attack weapon is better than everything the fighter bomber has.
Rhino
Retired PR Developer
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Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by Rhino »

viirusiiseli wrote:In my mind the choice is obvious. Have JET AT missiles kill a vehicle if you hit it in a 5-10 meter radius. This is because it's very hard to get direct hits by firing at a laser. Be it a 2-seater or an A10 it's a slim chance your lase missile hits armor directly.

Have HELI AT missiles kill armored vehicles (APC, TANK, IFV) with direct hits and make quite small but noticeable damage from near misses. This is because it is ridiculously easy to hit a vehicle with helicopter's manually aimed missiles.
Well as I said, since the missiles fired from jets are bigger, they have a bigger explosion radius etc than the smaller hellfires etc as they did in the v1.0 Open Beta but that really only counted for a bigger kill radius vs infantry and soft targets as it still did little damages to armour without a direct hit, but still more than a hellfire hitting next to a tank in the same spot. If we where to up the damage of exploding next to targets of both chopper and jet AtG missiles then the jet missiles will still be more powerful with a larger radius.

But choppers still have "laser targeted" missiles and will be kinda odd with that not working vs tanks and jet missiles working fine if we where to do the above...
40mmrain wrote:I agree with virus on the topic of the ASMs fired from jets, theyre much larger and should be splashing like they always did. The utility of the 2 seat fighter bombers was the hyper maneuverable brimstones and equivalent that acted like bombs. The bombs on the fighter bombers are very challenging to use, as they dont guide like the fighter's, so splashing infantry, large targets, or hitting armour while flying at ~1200 speed units diminishes their usefulness.

I'd take the fighter over the fighter-bomber in 1.0, it's ground attack weapon is better than everything the fighter bomber has.
The bombs on Fighter Bombers are LGBs, that do guide (at least they did the last time I tried them and pretty sure nothing has changed since), the only difference is that you have a gunner being able to look down, lock onto a lase and drop them onto a target, and also being able to manually guide them onto a target (although that last one still needs a bit of work iirc to make it more like the firing system choppers have), as well as getting many more AtG weapons than a Fighter. The other advantage is that the fighter can concentrate on the flying, while the gunner can concentrate on the bombing etc, instead of the pilot trying to do both at the same time, while also not having a downwards view.
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notmyingamename
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Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by notmyingamename »

good discussion, thanks for the poll. i rarely get to gun the attack birds, spending most of the time piloting, so i can only give indirect feedback. i do know that i had two very effective and experienced gunners (years of pr) open up in squad mumble about seemingly direct hits that didn't result in kills or even mobility kills. the same guys that i fly with who often catch other helicopters with lg during the dogfight, for instance.

that system is workable, i think. people will innovate and i'm sure we could adjust into new attack patterns that work with the direct hit changes, but a little forgiveness makes sense with the stabilization or lack of.
viirusiiseli
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Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by viirusiiseli »

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Rhino;1918234']But choppers still have "laser targeted" missiles and will be kinda odd with that not working vs tanks and jet missiles working fine if we where to do the above...[/quote]

Yeah I guess... Some splash could be added but certainly not much at least for tanks, maybe just give tanks some noticeable damage from <5m misses. For APCs some damage from <10 meter misses. I guess that way you could still kill a tank/APC with LT missiles by just using more of them. Maybe 3 near misses for a tank and 2 for APC, provided you hit within 5 meters of them.

[quote="=MeRk= Morbo5131""]I voted 25% but I'm happy with any of the top 3 options, preferably minimum splash. Good gunners shouldn't have too much trouble hitting static targets, and the Hellfires are currently devastating against grouped up infantry.[/quote]

They wont anymore in 1.0 from what I gathered, hydras will be the most effective way to kill grouped up infantry and that is most of the time very risky :P
=-=kittykiller wrote:May i link u to virusilis Videos of CAS on BETA he still dominates not just cuz he is very good but because its so simple to do. Do not make this any easier !!!!

if you just watch virus dominate in the havok . SEE LINK BELOW

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f112-p ... eplay.html

what does it add to the other 48 players per team, . JUST RUINS APC TRANS. IMO APC TRANS NEEDS THIS.
Hard to understand exactly what you're trying to say since you have no idea how to use proper grammar. But from what I gathered you're afraid DEVs will make hellfires kill APCs from a miss, they most likely wont as it's absurdly unrealistic and would be slightly over powered even in the hands of a bad gunner.

Don't understand what you're on about with me killing stuff on 1.0 BETA as if it's too easy. 1.0 BETA was the most requiring version to gun a heli in, but in a good way. Gunning a heli on 1.0 was most definitely not "so simple to do" as you think. I killed things because I hit them dead on.

Hellfires didn't have big splash on armored vehicles nor on infantry in BETA. So infantry, light vehicles, armor and helicopters died not because gunning a heli is simple to do, they died because they got hit directly with a missile. If you can't handle that I don't know what to say.
Last edited by viirusiiseli on 2013-07-16 11:37, edited 8 times in total.
ExeTick
Posts: 855
Joined: 2011-01-13 22:50

Re: AtG AT Missile Splash Damage

Post by ExeTick »

Voted for 100% in a 5meter radius.

but instead of 5 meters I think it should be 100% on 1 meter for tanks and IFVs.
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