Project Reality Forums

Driver, Main gunner, Commander (copula MG #1), "Loader" (copula MG #2?).

IMO, you need two to use an Attack helicopter to its max effectiveness, same for tanks! But how annoying would it be if you have a complete unintelligent person as your gunner? or your driver? He could drive you off a cliff or completely miss the most obvious targets as you're being killed.. be careful with this.

BrokenArrow wrote:actually, hes right twice. i dont think there should be a punishment per se but IRL youd use an MG to take out infantry, unless the got to cover, then its main gun time. obviously you wouldnt get out, thats not what hes saying, he means using an mg as opposed to the main gun on the vehicle.

about the tanks, tanks arent used to take or hold ground, same as air assetts, they are used to overrun ground, but infantry is used to really take and hold it. as far as not being able to do anything about it, yeah thats tough, but maybe PR will put in a feature where you cant spawn in a contested zone, or as its been talked about, you dont spawn at forward outposts, only at the main base.

It was not uncommon in Iraq for tankers to use their main gun against infantry, though they did use the main coaxial most of the time. It was also not uncommon that we had friendly kills because of a miscommunication or just a quick mistake by the gunner.

Broken Arrow is correct in that tanks were utilized as a forward support for ground infantry. They took ground, but the infantry, AAV's, and LAV's were the ones who held the ground. It was also not uncommon that a team of tankers got more kills than the Infantry soley because they were in first and had such accute weapons sighting systems.

I'm also a full supporter of forcing a spawn to the farthest point possible. This would force the team to work together more, and not rush, die, respawn.

The question of whether the driver's position should be separate from the gunner's depends on whether BF2 engine can handle gyrostabilized turrets.

it can the turrets in bf2 are stabalized

I know we are working on realism here, so I was thinking of punishment for intentional use of main gun for killing people(human flesh targets), mainly because a real tank commander would never do that is what is knon in the Marines as a Dirty Kill(i.e. shit flying everywhere and generally not pretty)

Read "Thunder Run" (see the books post). In the taking of Bagdad, both the coax, and main gun were used to kill infantry. They were using new main gun shell called an "MPAT" I beleive. They were used to both clear bunkers, take out suicide cars, and clean infantry out of wooded hiding spots.

More riccocet for bullets would be cool for the armor. At one point in the book it describes how a Bradley gunner realized it was more effective to bounce bullets off the ground and walls to kill the enemy in alley ways rather then just waiting for them to pop out and shoot RPGs

Being a tanker myself, I really enjoy the tanks as they are. I really like the idea of using non sabot main gun ammo against infanty and I think tanks most certainly should be able to take flags. In response to what scoggs said about not being able to do anything agains tanks taking a flag, there is nothing wrong with that. Tanks are supposed to be more like unstopable behemoths, not that they are invincible.

In response to the thought that tanks should have a driver and a gunner separately, I'd like to take a look at Red Orchestra. RO is a WW2 realism mod for UT2k4 which does what is being suggested here with the tanks. It takes 3 people to properly man a tank. The tanks are truely amazing the way armor penetration and impact angles all are taken into account, but having to work with people you don't know or trust just to move and shoot is a real pain. It is for that reason that very few people in that mod like tanks. I suggest that we keep the driver/gunner as one person.

Well my vote is definately for 3 positions driver/gunner/commander in the tanks. So what if you don't know the person gunning or driving for you a lot of the time. Its fun to work as a team with different players, you get to know them and what to expect pretty quickly. Of course the commander position would have to be optional, not required to use the tank.

With 1 person able to just hop into a random tank, drive off and start blasting away, the game feels way to arcade like and boring.

my... vote you would call it... is for DCR like system

commander/driver
gunner
cupola gunner

possibly a loader. probly not, but personally, i think it would be cool if the interior of the tank was actually coded right and looked nice, and you just loaded the rounds in, i dunno, it might be fun.

So, say we do get tanks that require no less than two people to operate. What happens when the gunner sees a great target and prepares to fire and the idiot driver decides it would be a good time to lurch forward just a bit? That round misses, UNLESS, an advanced gyrostabilizing system is put in place. I know the turret pitch is already stabilized, but not nearly enough. Also, any lag between the driver and gunner would totally throw things off as with the MG turrets on tanks and FAVs.

Another issue is that, in real life, the crew of the tank is so well trained they can work together seamlessly as one. Communication is essential, as well. It is hard to emulate this kind of teamwork without simply giving the whole tank to one player. Perhaps, upon entering a tank, the players become members of MBT1 squad. That way, the tank would be commanded directly by the commander and the squad, if so inclined, would be able to speak to each other. The tank commander would be the squad leader and would issue orders to the crew by looking through a periscope and using the "sec. radio" much like normal squad commanding. The tank and no one in it would be a member of any squad other than the tank's and the could not leave the squad until exiting.

Not to mention it's damn near impossible to effectively fire on the move (something modern tanks are able to do with the same accuracy as stationary) while with the same person driving and gunning it's at least learnable.

I think requiring 2-3 people to operate a tank is a good idea and also maybe make them take longer to respawn. Theres always too many freakin tanks running around in BF2.

remember, in PR youre more likely to see more tanks when youre on a map that uses them because thats how theyre used IRL. but i do think respawns definitely need to be longer.

To add to that. I dont think loners in tanks will last very long now considering one AT rocket to the rear of the tank and its history.
The team wil have to use the tank very carfully and place it well because its only going to take 1 shot to smash it.

To add to this. Its allso why i am convinced this mod MUST have limited places for each squad and that another squad cannot be created until the oters are full. Simple because as we now know everything has a weakness and if people are allowed to whore on one class the game will be a failure in many respects imo. Imadgine a map full of AT and then trying to use the tank? Not like that in reality and not going to be part of this mod. I hope.

exactly, so now that tanks are more vulnerable they need to be implemented correctly for the sake of their existance in this game.

Adding to terribles idea of limiting weapons.. Would it be possible to add a spawn counter to vehicles and such? So that you only have so many tanks, so many AT rockets, so many C4 packs and so on? So if you use them all up when not needed, you wont have them when you do need them. And when they do respawn, they respawn at the very rear of the map (see my "Vehicle Resupply" topic for more on that).