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Posted: 2007-06-26 07:35
by onit
Looks like the .6 beta release/upgrade on the popular servers will increase solid gameplay, that is after the lookieloos leave an go back to vBF2.

Posted: 2007-06-26 08:02
by Apheirox
0.6 is a major improvement over 0.5 in almost all respects. There are especially two things you should be commended for: Insurgency mode and the new commander assets. Both of these are highly original additions that add whole new aspects to the game.

When I heard of the changes you were planning for the Al Basrah map I was distressed. 0.5 Basrah is an awesome map - the whole scenario of massive US military might against a ragtag islamist insurgent force is awesome. So when I heard you were going to take all the hardware away and replace them with a much lighter equipped British force, making it a pure ground forces map, I was not too happy. Fortunately, I was pleasantly surprised. The new gamemode with the ammo caches and especially the civilian class are examples of pure genius inigenuity. The civilian adds a whole new layer to the game, creating a form of combat never experienced before that is both authentic and a nice break from the usual maps. Just perfect! Still, I want to say that the 0.5 Basrah massively asymmetrical battle scenario was just too good to be left out. You really need to create a new map like that, preferably with the USMC this time and including the lovely civilians again.

Commander mode has always felt like a chore to me. Scanning terrain for enemy rally points by frantically clicking the map is not my idea of fun. Even at the risk of battles becoming disorganized I can see why the Desert Conflict mod left the commander mode out. Of course, you cannot do that with PR. In 0.6, commander mode is still a chore but now you at least get to make interesting RTS-like base building decisions which require you to do some footwork. That means the commander role is more demanding and involves the commander directly in battle rather than just being some eye-in-the-sky. Good stuff.

The changes from 0.5 I do not like are the new movement system and the radio system which I have some minor gripes about. Due to the BF2 engine's severe limitations some rather drastic compromises will have to be made with regards to movement since we cannot have that '5th gear', but I think you have cut off the wrong part. It is really, really bad that there is no longer a real sprint and equally bad you can no longer storm enemy positions properly. Also, the basic movement speed is simply too slow. I made that elaborate thread with ideas to revamp the whole movement system but being that - again, due to engine limitations - you cannot have different forward, strafing and backwards movement speeds I can see that it simply would not be possible. In that light I can see why you made movement the way you did - I am also not a fan of Joint Ops style sidestepping firefights - but I would still raise overall speed slightly. The tradeoffs are just too big: You gain a slow walk useful for a limited number of tactical situations but you lose both the widely used tactical trot and sprinting. Actually, come to think of it I suppose you could say to your credit that you also gain a realistic running speed since 0.5's was probably too fast. I think the conclusion must be that your system has its merits and so has mine. No matter how much you try to think up the best system, however, you will come to the conclusion that BF2's movement system is lacking, so it really is an unfortunate situation.

Overall, I am overjoyed with the new radio system simply because it cuts down on the spam. In 0.5, on for example the Ghost Train map, the spam would get so bad it in fact markedly reduced my enjoyment of the game. It was just so loud and constant. You could not listen for enemies or much of anything else for that matter. Much of the reason why it was this bad, though, was because stupid players kept spotting the same enemies over and over and several times. When a vehicle rolled by a squad every member of that squad would spot it. At the same time. And some would spot it not once, but frantically click the commo rose spotting it several times as well as placing question marks all over. That problem is fortunately in the past now, however, or has at least been greatly reduced. Nice move muting the 'question mark' sounds! I also really like the radio transmitted 'friendly fire!' warning. IIRC that was not in vanilla, is that correct?

What I dislike, however, are two things. First, it is the new sounds. I think the old ones were so much better. Why fix something that is not broken? I kind of picked up in game chat - not quite sure - that it was changed to eliminate radio distortion sounds, but that does not sound like a good argument. Surely the distortion has a place in a realism mod and adds to the atmosphere? The second thing I dislike is how you hear yourself talking over the radio when saying something when I want you to always hear your local voice. I posted about that here: http://realitymod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23046 Sofad said this was due to - yes, again - engine limitations but gave no explanation which left me kind of puzzled: The game is incapable of playing the local version of the sound for you and those nearby but the radio version for those far away? What I want is anything said near you - no matter by whom, squad leader or not - to be spoken locally and anything said by somebody far away transmitted over the radio. That must be the most realistic way, right? But it is impossible?

Then there are all the lesser but neat changes. Squad leaders not being able to set up rally points on their own is a very good change. The faster, far more impressive and frightening jets coupled with much greater view distance is awesome (the flying experience on old 'Greasy Mullet' left much to be desired - you could not see a thing, felt awkward). Accuracy when not looking down the sights/scope seems to be better now which is also good.

I am a bit concerned about balance on some of the few maps I have tried, though. Seven Gates seems to favour the British with the lack of PLA vehicles. Assault on Mestia seems heavily in favour of the British. I do not see how the Militia team could win against team of British of equal skill if both teams are well organized: The British have superior vehicles and equipment, large numbers of limited kits readily available from rally points, an uncappable main base, can revive their fallen, have the Commander set up base structures and need to capture just one CP to stop the bleed. I believe it was you, Eggman, who suggested it might be necessary with both tower CP's to stop bleed, but I fear even with that change the British will still be too powerful.

These are my sentiments with 0.6. Now, I do not think this post should be longer and will write no more.

Posted: 2007-06-26 08:39
by bosco_
I agree with egg.
And when all the oldschool players (Yeah Rage, Space and Bob, I mean you!) switch to 0.6, it will be even more awesome.

Posted: 2007-06-26 09:01
by Outlawz7
'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']
Example 1: Squad needs to regroup to set a rally point. 3 members are nearby. 1 is off dickheading in a helicopter. Another is confused about where to go and another is off Spec Ops'ing. The 3 standing around take long enough the they all get pwned.
Argh, I sooo hate that, every second I need to wait to have squad regroup on me to set a RP, Im closer to being wiped out.
Main reason, I either leave the server or kick out half of my squad and hope, better ones will join. C'est la vie, eh :lol:
Guess Ill have to deal with it, since someone has to lead a squad of poor losers and take them under their wing (read: when SLs leave and rejoin, then you pick the shortest straw :roll: )

One thing, Im curious about, what will happen to the current 0.5 population, who hasnt even tried 0.6, or is on the TB Basrah 24/7, complaining, how new Basrah "sucks", cos theres no A10 and ghey British forces and civilian class :roll:

Posted: 2007-06-26 09:01
by Metis-M
'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']
Example 1: Squad needs to regroup to set a rally point. 3 members are nearby. 1 is off dickheading in a helicopter. Another is confused about where to go and another is off Spec Ops'ing. The 3 standing around take long enough the they all get pwned.
a.
Yes, and if u stay and wait for members that maybe have to run from longer distance, u can be ambushed, 3-4 men killing by Ppsh or nades.
The best think, if u managed to make RP, then the spawnkilling can begin.


I know, u will say then be better, but im that guy, who kill.
Staying all togher and waiting to make RP is very bad idea not from point of teamwork but from point of safety.

b.
Sometimes u habe to leave Flag to make RP, at that time u lose the Flag, then u have storm that point with bloody causalities, all happened yesterday.




Some other points.

1. Scoped G3 works now like Marksman with ability to fullauto. For Expamle on the West Beach u get sniper duells, why attack if u can sit and shoot from distance. And every ordinary MEC Rifleman have marksman ability, its unrealistic. It should be a red dot for MEC SpecOps and not fullauto "Marksman" for simple Rifleman and not everybody should have binoculars.

But no problem, US use AT for sniping every little Rifleman on West Beachfrom the Rocks.

2. Al Basrah
One of the best maps at 0.5, thors brigade albasrah mostly is a full server, and the server has sometimes connction problems, but people stay.

What u do now to this great map? Circus for Kids.
Watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgP_nZEqouI


O.K., fun can be, but should it be on of the best maps?



3. What do u think about the sound problem in general for snipers or marksmen?

Watch:
http://realitymod.com/forum/t22737-mili ... field.html

He is not alone who often hunt down people with sniperrifle....

4. Arabs, AK: MECs

MECs speak arab but use now only german weapons, should use russian weapons, as it is in Irak, Syria, Egypt, cause only Iran use G3 but dont speak arab.



On the other hand, they looks now other, not so good(graphic) but more as iranians.

5. Militia

Are Militia chechenians?
If so, then they are separatist, as that they dont speak russian with each other, and if they speak russian to other it sounds mostly not as ethnic russian. But its only that u know the fact.

Important ist, the they use Ppsh, SKS, Mosin in 0.6, but in real they were well equiped with Aks, RPGs, MGs, Dragunovs.
Militia that used some simple Rifles, that was from Dagestan and they foght against the chechen invasion on 1999, defending own village with own weapon from house. But they didnt have Ppsh or SKS or Mosin Sniper Rifles.

It has something like if u make US National Guard with M1 Garand.



Militia should have more RPGs as a class and not only at east tower(?).

6. Movement
Not bad but what was it bad at 0.5? How to sprint accross the street from corner to corner or u never saw people doing this in a war?

7. Some battles very long, people leave the server
On the other hand i like longer battles, it depends on map, on 0.5 al basrah its if us not very lame but some other maps, f.Ex. old big BF2 maps its boring, then u see no more a full server but only some poeple, happened to gotland server.


8. Nightmap in Forest (dont know the name), tried it, people dont take flags, they camp and make spwankills, no really actions, on SF without forestmaps servers run often on "no nightmaps" and u make nightmaps and more in forest where nobody can see something. :lol:


9. What is the point of new scope possibilities for Tanks and Apcs? See at longer range? If so, why make them more powerfull by that and also take AT-Class away, as good a crewman on 0.5 u can get very good K/d.


10. Animation and sounds in 0.5 were also better, for Example shooting with tank.

11. If Medic cant heal himself, why should nyone take this class, medics have always less good weapons, f.Ex. no nades and/or only three burst m16?


12. Why not make update based on 0.5, f.Ex. take away damn tker-jets from al basrah and give to usa more jeeps? There are more suggestions but u want go another way as u said.

Posted: 2007-06-26 09:03
by Outlawz7
Strategist wrote:an uncappable main base
The GB base on AoM is cappable. Once we lost it, when a Militia squad sneaked in and captured it, then everyone got confused and slowly started getting picked off. Luckily, we recaptured it just in time.

Posted: 2007-06-26 09:05
by Outlawz7
wow, Metis-M, just as I said:
or is on the TB Basrah 24/7, complaining, how new Basrah "sucks", cos theres no A10 and ghey British forces and civilian class

Posted: 2007-06-26 10:30
by Jaymz
Metis-M wrote:

MECs speak arab but use now only german weapons, should use russian weapons, as it is in Irak, Syria, Egypt, cause only Iran use G3 but dont speak arab.

The G3 is the most realistic choice for a Middle-Eastern coalition to get. Why? Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, and even Lebanon all use it it in one form or another.


5. Militia

Are Militia chechenians?
If so, then they are separatist, as that they dont speak russian with each other, and if they speak russian to other it sounds mostly not as ethnic russian. But its only that u know the fact.

Would need to find a Chehnian voice actor who has access to high quality recording equipment. Not going to happen :p

10. Animation and sounds in 0.5 were also better, for Example shooting with tank.

Animation was not changed. 1st person sound was not changed. What you are experiencing is a vanilla bug in which the sound/animation do not play. Care to share another example? I'm curious since we didn't add any animations to things that were in 0.5. We didn't even have an animator until I recruited one a few weeks ago :p

11. If Medic cant heal himself, why should nyone take this class, medics have always less good weapons, f.Ex. no nades and/or only three burst m16?

He has three field dressings and now has body armor.

Posted: 2007-06-26 10:49
by Lothrian
Metis-M wrote: 1. Scoped G3 works now like Marksman with ability to fullauto. For Expamle on the West Beach u get sniper duells, why attack if u can sit and shoot from distance. And every ordinary MEC Rifleman have marksman ability, its unrealistic. It should be a red dot for MEC SpecOps and not fullauto "Marksman" for simple Rifleman and not everybody should have binoculars
Fighting now occurs at realistic distances rather 50 metres or less.

Posted: 2007-06-26 11:38
by mrmong
i still think civilians is a bad idea.. well i thought it was cool to begin with but its a pretty gamey gimmick tbh

Posted: 2007-06-26 11:44
by Longbow*
'[R-DEV wrote:Jaymz']

The G3 is the most realistic choice for a Middle-Eastern coalition to get. Why? Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, and even Lebanon all use it it in one form or another.
G3 is outdated . It is highly unrealistic to equip rich powerful coalition with outdated battle rifles - nowadays conventional armies switched completely to assault rifles with lighter cartrige . If you want H&K , give MEC G36E ( yes E(xport) , as G36 is the rifle for german army only ) or H&K33 family .Though I'd rather see MEC with Sig550 or AK10X families , but thats just me . It costs a lot of money - yeah , indeed ; but you forgot that almost all MEC vehicles are new , they aren't common in the region . So they have money for new vehicles and havent money for new smallarms ? Plain stupid .

I'm not complaining , I already passed that stage . I like G3's now , but saying it is realistic - hell no , that stands far away from reality .

Posted: 2007-06-26 11:49
by Dunehunter
One of the maps were the changes really shine is Mestia. A well-organized squad with a SL who knows what he's doing and SMs who follow orders can really kick some *** on that map. I like where PR is going, and I can't wait to see what's next (*cough* challenger *cough* civilian roadkills *cough*)

Posted: 2007-06-26 12:10
by Jaymz
Longbow* wrote:G3 is outdated . It is highly unrealistic to equip rich powerful coalition with outdated battle rifles - nowadays conventional armies switched completely to assault rifles with lighter cartrige . If you want H&K , give MEC G36E ( yes E(xport) , as G36 is the rifle for german army only ) or H&K33 family .Though I'd rather see MEC with Sig550 or AK10X families , but thats just me . It costs a lot of money - yeah , indeed ; but you forgot that almost all MEC vehicles are new , they aren't common in the region . So they have money for new vehicles and havent money for new smallarms ? Plain stupid .

I'm not complaining , I already passed that stage . I like G3's now , but saying it is realistic - hell no , that stands far away from reality .
Outdated has nothing to do with it Longbow. It's regarded, by many, as one of the greatest battle rifles ever made. It shoots a 7.62x51 round (larger than the AK47x39) which I'm sure makes up for it's burdening magazines.

Plus, if a MEC military force was formed I don't think Germany would be too willing to open up the H&K store for business, nor would any country for that matter.



Wow we've gone off-topic, sorry egg.....

Posted: 2007-06-26 12:19
by Longbow*
'[R-DEV wrote:Jaymz']Outdated has nothing to do with it Longbow. It's regarded, by many, as one of the greatest battle rifles ever made.
Okay . Why all top10 armies droped battle rifles out of service in 70s-80s ? Maybe because lighter round ( and AR's that fire it ) is actually better ? For it's time ( 60's , 70's , maybe even half of 80's ) G3 was good . Now it is outdated . M1 was great rifle in 40's but noone in 60's was going to equip newly formed army with M1's ...
'[R-DEV wrote:Jaymz'] It shoots a 7.62x51 round
It is goddamn rifle round , made by americans who were sick of giantomania during 50's . Thanks god , they havent addopted 30-06 round for assault rifles .
'[R-DEV wrote:Jaymz']Plus, if a MEC military force was formed I don't think Germany would be too willing to open up the H&K store for business, nor would any country for that matter.
Bingo ! Another point to equip MEC with AK's as Russia would probably be the only country that may supply such coalition .
'[R-DEV wrote:Jaymz']AK47x39
Something new to me . Never heared of such AR :lol: ;-)

Posted: 2007-06-26 12:31
by 301_HysterX
"Why should people pick up the medic kit ?"

To help their team mates :)

Posted: 2007-06-26 12:42
by Bob_Marley
'[R-DEV wrote:Jaymz']

The G3 is the most realistic choice for a Middle-Eastern coalition to get. Why? Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, and even Lebanon all use it it in one form or another.
Not to cast aspersions on your geographical skills, but why do you always bring up Malaysia as an example to prove that the MEC should have the G3?

Image

Anyway, I like the MEC having the G3, its manufactured in the region and is well suited to the long enguagement ranges on the desert maps, while still being a reasonable all rounder for urban fighting. It trades mag capacity and total round count for greater power (and accuracy, not sure?) compared to the M16 for example.

If its going to be replaced with anything, I insist it be the ZF-1 :p

Posted: 2007-06-26 12:58
by ArmedDrunk&Angry
It could be that he uses Malayasia as an example because they are the most populous Muslim nation.

Posted: 2007-06-26 12:59
by carld2002
I will kill to keep the g3 in game. Just thought you'd like to know.

And the biggest thing that I think needs to be changed in pr is the commander role. I think the actual role is great but there are no incentives at all for someone to take commander.

Unlike vbf2 where it didn't really matter if there was a commander, the team that has a commander vs the one that doesn't almost always wins in pr.

I just think that there has to be a reason put in for people to command... maybe after 10 minutes into the game without an elected commander, it will autochose a commander. A crappy, commander who doesn't want to do it is better than no commander, correct?

Posted: 2007-06-26 13:07
by Long Bow
Well considering the origingal intent of this post was about 0.6 being "on-track" all I can say is regardless of what rifle the MEC forces use 0.6 is still on-track. No need to quible over it in the context of this thread :D

The thing that I find so amazing after playing a good deal of online tactical games is the constant level of teamwork. I can't get over being able to jump on a public server at any time, join a squad and be able to get 4 people together on a regular basis to set a rally point! Most other games your lucky if you can get people to even talk let alone co-ordinate at the PR level. There is so much in the new beta that I can't even play 0.5 now, it's a huge leap forward on so many levels.

If PR keeps bringing about changes and the community can slowly wrap their heads around it I think the Devs are on track. If we ever get to the point where the community as a whole just can't play a new release then worry about PR's direction, until then Cheers :grin: