Sadist_Cain wrote:Replicating situational awareness dosn't start with providing 26 other players locations on a map at a glance accurate to a centimetre
Dude do you play PR? We have VOIP = Mics we also have the abilitie to Shout important info (Reloading, medic, fall back, advance etc.) I don't know how you can say having a birds eye view of everyones location near you within 200M is a "fraction" of real life sense
I have been in the past 4 PR Tournaments and all as a SL or NCO. Yelling, reloading, over a mic is pretty much useless because there is a delay which is why the reloading button was put into the comma rose. And you can shout medic all you want which is what I always hear people doing, but how is the medic suppose to know where you are? You can't use simple logic and realize that in this videogame, you cannot hear people running towards you or where they are yelling from?
And it is not realistic to the "T", but neither is a lot of stuff in PR. Something are just necessary. The commander is usually an idiot and other SLs do their own thing, so I rely on myself to link up with other SLs in order to attack and because I know where they are, I don't have to always go help their members out if they do not need it. Without a minimap, you would have no idea of who is where, which is briefed throughly in real life and you also have radios, walkee talkies, GPS, and other features in real life which are not ingame. SL to SL chat is not ingame either, so tell me how in the hell am I suppose to provide support or go a different route without a minimap?
If you can't hear the guy the other side of the corner in game then you have something bad with your sound. There's been many times where my whole squad has dropped stright down in the woods of OGT because we've heard rustling and enemies talking/moving etc.
More so in the urban maps because the clump of their boots stands out much more
Are you even playing the same game I am? You are hearing things or you or your squad is moving and hearing their own steps because you cannot hear people running in PR/BF2. That is the ambient sounds most likely or yourself. You don't even have to actually walk to hear yourself, you can just turn in place and it will make a sound that only you hear. Footsteps were not implimented in this game like they are in CSS. You can stand out in the middle of nowhere and still hear those so called "boots" you are talking about because like I said, half the time, they are from yourself or ambient.
And even if by chance you could hear enemies walking, they would have to be right next to you and you and your squad would have to be practically motionless in order to hear them and I question what you have said reguarding you using it to your advantage. That is just plain not true.
What you're talking about here is quick and simple navigation of making sure each soldier has a specific job and keeps themselves where they are needed to be. You can as quickly as shooting Fire down attack, defense and move markers that everyone can use to help give their position
Use landmarks, not "the rock around the corner" try "about 10m east of the school building behind a wall!" that's better
It's simple when you are walking far away from combat and you are not getting shot at, but once you make contact, there isn't enough time to always use move markers because people are moving to stay alive and not get naded. And each soldier cannot stay where he needs to be because they don't know where they need to be. This is not a professional army and the guys are strangers to each other half the time.
And considering that most of the static objects in PR look the same, you cannot use the "about 10M east of the school building" jargon. Especially in urban areas. The minimap is the only thing that keeps squads together there and everywhere.
Rubbish. An RPG will only shoot you if he sees you so there's 1 point secondly, he'll also (if he's smart) only shoot if it's a juicy target. (so don't make yourselves one) people will rarely waste a nade on a single moving target if you keep spacings it makes nades a lot harder to use and if you stay aware the bloke shouldnt get close enough to throw one
If you get shot up half the time then you're doing something wrong
That response was rubbish, sorry. You know just as well as I do that if a guy with an RPG sees someone or their shadow, they are not going to stop and think to shoot. They are going to fire. I have been hit and seen people hit far many times when walking around a corner and running into an insurgent the instant they see each other, so your response is not truthful. and second, if someone is smart, they will nade you if they don't shoot you first because you are likely with someone else and nades are an easy kill cus of blast radius. I don't know where you heard the "don't waste a nade on a single target" argument, but that is bs and you are more likely to die ingaging with a gun than you are throwing a nade and staying back.
And I am not getting shot up half the time. My squads know how to operate and I know how to shoot and play this game, but the point is,
WE HAVE ALL THAT IN PR IF PEOPLE WOULD JUST DO IT!!! instead of this bullshit attitude of "ohh hwe all know that half the time a commander is stoopid so why bother listening"
Your living in a fairytale. The only people you can communicate effectly with in PR is your squad and the commander. If the commander is an idiot, your squad is basically distanced from the other squads. If your commander is competent but the other squads are idiots, you are still on your own. It is a lose lose situation either way you cut it, so don't give me that response because it is just plain false.
And secondly, there are no radios in PR. You have mics, but they are only between your squad and not other SLs. If we had radios, we would be able to communicate with other squadleaders ingame, but that is not true and the ingame chat is useless.
If the only way you can keep a squad together is to have them on a wide open flat featureless piece of land so you can see where they all are and clump them together then I feel for you.
I never said that, so don't put words in my mouth. I find it funny that you can sit here and say that a squad can stay together in urban combat when they have to be spread out to even survive and not get naded. Once that first bullet comes at them, they are going to either chase down the insurgent or soldier or seek cover and that is when the squad splits up.
99.8% of the time I'd say T&T SLs Newbie squads are on the ball and working hard together
That's a bs number and you know it. Just because squads work together does not mean they always do their job or there aren't idiots in the squad. A squad can all have mics, but they have never played together before, so they might all have differing tactics from one another. One guy might chase down an insurgent while around wouldn't and telling him to not do it in the middle of a game and him asking "why?" happens plenty. The game is just simply too fast paced to have these magical coordination tactics you are talking about.
Don't get me wrong, there can be plenty of tactics imployed in PR, but what wins firefights most of the time is being accurate or shooting first or having more numbers, not squad fireteam manuvers usually.
That's the fun... A good game is stressed out everyone is shouting over VOIP the medic is going crazy keeping his eye on everyone along with his SL, supporting fire going apeshit... Then all of a sudden the round is over and win or lose your heart is pumping and your physically exhausted.
You completely missed the point of that entire argument. Most of the people that play PR do not know each other or have ever played with each other before. They do not have coordination or tactics like a real life infantry unit would have. That is why some SLs have to resort to nagging and yelling at their squadmembers in order to keep them from doing stupid things. Even then, these guys are not bound by military law or court martial, so they can do whatever they want.
It's fegging hard work but dam rewarding at the end, Most SLs are too nice to Order people what to do in game, As an SL you should make those 6 people do what they need to do, but make it FUN whilest they do it, that way no matter wtf they do its fun and that means you can have them very disciplined without them knowing
Lol, the whole point of the SL is to order people around. If they are not, than they are weak SLs and those are the squads that are going off in different directions and doing their own thing.
Best bit of advice, it is easy to do when no one is around so do it alllllll the time. I'll still make a squad approach a flag in full on formation even if we're 99% sure no one is there. The 1% time there is someone, or we know there will be someone. All my boys are in position like they have been before and they've been itching on their trigger so they're ready
Formations do not exist in this game. I have been in 4 PR Tournaments and there has never been a time when those formations or realistic infantry type tactics work. The game is simply too fast paced to do that and once a squadmate is being ingaged by an enemy, he is not going to just suddenly get up and move to a position you designate by a move marker because this is not the REAL MILITARY! They have not been to bootcamp and are not used to taking orders on the spot and have no consequence for them.
I'm lost now, too many quote
Basically I'm confused... I've never seen such coordination and teamwork in pubby games since after 0.7b.
Sword and shield tactics in use with armour and people actually agreeing to do them!
my most favorite part is something NO ONE used to do for me in 0.7... take the minimap of them and they're singing like lil Canaries...
Kiss that armor support goodbye if the minimap goes away. Just like the ease of spotting armor too from the previous patches.
"OK now lads lets go, what are your directions? get locked down, Sadist_cain SL on the north north east side watching the main road"
"Teknesh, East side, main entrance"
"Mr. N1ce, western side covering the hills"
" Heskey, support gun south side "
"Exorch, Medic available, watching north western side"
"Good stuf fellows you guys who aren't on a covering angle lay down and look south west for me, I need nowhere else, just south west closed down"
And that's a typical defensive conversation...
Nice in theory, but that goes out the window in a second. You really think everyone is listening to that fancy talk either or paying attention when it is said? You really think people are going to instantly know where to go? Hell no. You can't simply point to an area like you could in real life. You seem to keep forgetting that this is NOT A REAL MILITARY. We practice tactics beforehand in the real military so that we know them. There is no practice with pubbies in PR.
And the most practical reason why your argument here makes no sense is because PR is so spontanious and the players lack military discipline. If someone comes around the corner on that guy to the east, you think the guy to the west is not going to go after him? What if a jihad car or technical comes blazing by or armor rolls in out of nowhere? All those tactics go out the window because people are too busy fighting to pay attention to them.
when attacking it's give or take with the medic but it isnt hard to split into two teams with an auto rifleman + optics (or the SL himself) providing overwatch whilest the other half move for the flag.
Leadfrog.. I don't know dude, just do something!
I'm sure we've played before and I know you're a decent guy so this ain't a flaming but you seem to have lost your way with 0.7 man, pop on the server and check out what me and Masaq are talking about, we do tend to do things very differently
Again, all those tactics you talk about do not work ingame. Like I said, I have been in 4 PR Tournaments and we have always gone over tactics like leapfrogging, fireteams, etc. but the game will always be too fast paced to do it effectively. Unless you can read each others thoughts which is not possible, you will always fall victim to a quicker and more fast paced, less tactical squad.
Me losing my way lol? No, I get the best squad the majority of times in the server and we usually end up winnng the match and my style of play has worked since 0.2, so why change it now? We win by old fashioned common sense tactics and knowing where to go and having a good squad and all the tactics you commonly refer to now do not work ingame and by taking out the minimap, it will only hurt the player's awareness ingame.
And trust me, if it cannot be done in the tournament with people on TS who are veterans and know each other, it sure isn't going to be done ingame with a bunch of strangers.
Basically I mentioned the prospect of having all the icons from maps removed other then for armour and squad leaders/commander and them having to update their position somehow.