My gameplay concept

Suggestions from our community members for PR:BF2. Read the stickies before posting.
RikiRude
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 3819
Joined: 2006-02-12 08:57

Post by RikiRude »

i love all of the ideas i see posted here.


i like the idea of spawning 100 meters from flags, thats just plain an awsome idea, makes the most sense to me, id love love love to see this implemented.

its an eyesore seeing classes like support and assualt, id like to see this changed.

i agree with the spawn camping UCB ideas and if its possible, this would be awsome to have.

disabled vehicles is a must have in my opinion.


and to Beta, i love those ideas about the killed and wounded condition :) !
nothing ould be worse then laying there waiting for your medic to save you... and you see the enemies shadow and get blown away =(
Last edited by RikiRude on 2006-03-27 09:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Evil_Eye
Posts: 117
Joined: 2006-02-26 18:49

Post by Evil_Eye »

I dont like your anti-base camp idea much. Instead there should just be some REALLY good emplaced guns that oughta stop ppl.
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Wraith
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 1929
Joined: 2006-02-11 00:10

Post by Wraith »

I normally cap the guy on the ground a few times any way just to make sure he's dead. Or dispose of the body using high explosives..
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six7
Posts: 1784
Joined: 2006-03-06 03:17

Post by six7 »

i dont like the UCB thing either. give the MEC some ZSU-31s and US 40mm automatic GLs and you will never see base caming again :twisted:
Cerberus
Posts: 2727
Joined: 2005-11-15 22:24

Post by Cerberus »

Yes, MEC needs a Zeus or two!
"Practice proves more than theory, in any case."

- Abraham Lincoln


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Neuromante
Posts: 85
Joined: 2006-03-02 10:35

Post by Neuromante »

Uhm, I dunno. Well, I guess so. Since in my gameply concept people respawns every 5 seconds you'd have a hard time basecamping. It would need some testing I believe.
six7
Posts: 1784
Joined: 2006-03-06 03:17

Post by six7 »

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look at this beast. you know you want it ;) there are emplaced versions of this gun as well. the in game one is wimpy. look at that camo and those guns......
Skullening.Chris
Posts: 1407
Joined: 2006-02-03 03:34

Post by Skullening.Chris »

Very nice post, Neuromante. I agree with most all of it, especially about spawnpoints and vehicle disabling.

On the subject of headshots:
In Novalogic's Joint Operations, bullets actually go where you want them to if you take the time to line up a shot and adjust for distance, and if you headshot someone, that's it, they're dead for good and cannot be revived. Dunno if thats able to be done in BF2 engine or not, though...
Neuromante
Posts: 85
Joined: 2006-03-02 10:35

Post by Neuromante »

Thanks. It's nice to see people likes the ideas I've got. :)

Btw, about the "killing headshots", It should be possible with my "reviving" system. You take a bullet in the head and die, since there's no "man down time". Otherwise, if you get hit badly enough not to die, you are in the wounded state and can't do anything other than crawl around. It's meant to simulate inabilitating injuries (<--I hope I spelled that correctly :? ??: ). The knife is there just for letting you the desperate chance to stab down a medic, heal yourself and survive. I gues it would be very rare though. :)
Skullening.Chris
Posts: 1407
Joined: 2006-02-03 03:34

Post by Skullening.Chris »

Oh yeah, that reminds me, that injured state you're talking about, with having to crawl around, reminds me of Operation Flashpoint. Normally taking enemy fire just means flat-out dying, buuut if you were lucky enough to survive, you would normally be so injured that you would have to crawl around until a medic treated you and if you tried to stand up while badly injured, it would force you back down again. Hell, anything that makes this game more Operation Flashpoint-like is a good thing :-P
Cerberus
Posts: 2727
Joined: 2005-11-15 22:24

Post by Cerberus »

Yeah, headshots should just kill you. Same with .50 cals
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Malik
Posts: 1676
Joined: 2006-04-20 16:49

Post by Malik »

Please please please please please don't put the SA sniper in with the sniper kit. Semi auto sniping should be given to spec ops. Squad based sniping is impossible with the guillie suit on, especially on urban maps. The sniper should have a bolt rifle for primary option 1 and an anti materiel rifle for primary option 2. From what I understand hidden snipers use both these weapons, but generally the squaddie sniper normally wouldn't wear full camo gear, especially not working on the move. The recon class should definetely have the spotter sniper with the semi auto.
Major Ursa Norte
Posts: 159
Joined: 2005-09-14 17:49

Post by Major Ursa Norte »

I too think that the defibs are silly. A med pack thrown at your feet while you are still able to walk is believable, but defib in a firefight? Nope.

If you only spawn at the uncap, then you destroy squad level tactics and the idea of forward firebases, which is what the whole flag system is basically modded after. Keep spawning as it is, but I do like the idea of a hidden/protected spawn point 100 to 150 meters to the rear of a flag. If you kept spawning as is except for the hidden/protected rear spawn point, then you could still have shorter spawn wait time.

I don't really see the purpose of the sniper as is in PR. For "reality" purposes, shouldn't there be a "sniper team"? Primary shooter coupled with a spotter? If you did THAT, then you would solve the lone wolf problems that snipers create AND be able to have actual RECON type intel and abilities. Sniper teams did carry laser designators in Desert Storm I and II. You would not really need the combat marksman if you let the Spec Ops keep the optical scope device on their rifle. True to life and lethal under 200 m.

Being able to render a vehicle useless without destroying it should be implemented. And I think Combat engineers and Spec Ops should be the classes to do it. After all, it is the engy that has to repair the disabled vehicle, why not let them also be able to do the disabling?

Over all, as it is now, this mod is pretty darn great. It is a challenge, but the fun has not been sucked out of it in favor of hyper realism.
Keep up the good work and I look forward to .3 and beyond.
the smoker you drink, the player you get. Cheap, but effective.
Neuromante
Posts: 85
Joined: 2006-03-02 10:35

Post by Neuromante »

No, you don't destroy squad tactics. You'd improve them, as vehicles will gain much more value and become "Squad Vehicles". Squads would have to rely on a said vehicle to survive, and it would be their only way to keep delivering people on the front by respawning. Seems to me the only way to make people actually value the tools they've got, otherwise they'll say "Who cares if my HMMW gets destroyed? I can get one a few feet away in just a couple minutes!". Plus, if you really have to travel all the way to the frontline people will actually start to use transports for what they are meant to.

The point of flags is not really "having forward firebases", they are meant to simulate capturing and holding territory. The team who captures and holds the territory wins, since every new flag under your control causes the opponents to lose more tickets. I feel that actually having to hold your territory, establish a secure supply line and having to advance through the "secure" territory to bring reinforcements is the best and closer to reality solution we could bring up for the mod, solving all the issues I mentioned at first.

I also believe that spawning a hundred meters away from a flag is a troublesome solution. Not only it wouldn't give the same "immersive feeling" and be as realistic as my original suggestion, but I already see tons of ways to exploit it. What do you do if your enemies find the "hidden" spawn point? They'd not even cap the flag while camping you there, so basically they would be allowed to do it as long as they want, until someone spawns on the previous flag and comes to kill them.
ghosty
Posts: 447
Joined: 2006-03-05 00:56

Post by ghosty »

Remember this needs to be a game not a simulator... simulators become very repetitive quickly. Neuromante, you have some great I deas... and alot of time on your hands.. wow!
[T]Terranova7
Posts: 1073
Joined: 2005-06-19 20:28

Post by [T]Terranova7 »

Or maybe he types and thinks fast eh?

Anyhow the way I see it, lets keep respawning as it is. If we don't you would have major control point issues. Take Strike at Karkand 2, it would almost be too easy for the MEC to advance right up to the bridge layout with little to no resistance. The way I see it, its not the most balanced idea with the current maps.

For the most part I the Spec Ops kit should be eliminated from the battlefield. And I was thinking about giving the assault class the extra aummunition ability. Now what I would like to see is that the extra ammo has to be thrown on the ground to use it. This way the player is not just simply pulling out the bag full of unlimited ammo and rearming him or herselves. Basically you throw it on the ground, walk over it and bam you have a few extra clips. I agree on not having the ability to rearm explosives.

Ghuille suit should and probably needs to be removed from teh sniper kit. Ain't the Ghuille suit primarily used for Special Operations anyhow? Where a sniper or a sniper team would go behind enemy lines for a few days, crawling around slowly until they reach their target. When I see pictures of snipers on the field, they wear the same thing their fellow servicemen and women wear. If the alternate kit selection feature is possible, it would be nice to have the choice between a semi-automatic and bolt-action sniper rifle.

Now once again I bring up another question as to whether or not specfic kits could work with squads. For instance only when a player joins a squad may he/she select a medic, support, sniper etc. Simular to America's Army. At max, a squad can have one sniper, one medic and one support class. A squad can have as many engy classes as it wants, and the assault class can be selected by anyone. Spec Ops could be replaced with a recon or pathfinder class of sorts. Armed with some carbine rifle, binocs a sidearm and smoke grenades.

In fact, perhaps tommorow I'll make a nice class suggestion.
Major Ursa Norte
Posts: 159
Joined: 2005-09-14 17:49

Post by Major Ursa Norte »

Neuromante wrote:No, you don't destroy squad tactics. You'd improve them, as vehicles will gain much more value and become "Squad Vehicles". Squads would have to rely on a said vehicle to survive, and it would be their only way to keep delivering people on the front by respawning. Seems to me the only way to make people actually value the tools they've got, otherwise they'll say "Who cares if my HMMW gets destroyed? I can get one a few feet away in just a couple minutes!". Plus, if you really have to travel all the way to the frontline people will actually start to use transports for what they are meant to.

The point of flags is not really "having forward firebases", they are meant to simulate capturing and holding territory. The team who captures and holds the territory wins, since every new flag under your control causes the opponents to lose more tickets. I feel that actually having to hold your territory, establish a secure supply line and having to advance through the "secure" territory to bring reinforcements is the best and closer to reality solution we could bring up for the mod, solving all the issues I mentioned at first.

I also believe that spawning a hundred meters away from a flag is a troublesome solution. Not only it wouldn't give the same "immersive feeling" and be as realistic as my original suggestion, but I already see tons of ways to exploit it. What do you do if your enemies find the "hidden" spawn point? They'd not even cap the flag while camping you there, so basically they would be allowed to do it as long as they want, until someone spawns on the previous flag and comes to kill them.
Wow. If you are not in the millitary and are able, you should join up. That way you can "play" on the very simulator you are wanting Pr to become.

Firebases ARE in friendly occupied territory. They are the forward points along the advancement front. The can only be created by siezing control of that area, which the changing of the flag on the pole signifies. As far as "supply lines" go, that is the whole point in having vehicles spawn at flags that you control. It is a game mechanic that simulates a supply line without detracting from gameplay by having dunderheads load up a deuce and a half with material and convoy to the forward front. This IS a First Person Shooter game, not a trucking simulator.

Also, IF you use tactics, then someone will be defending the flag and will therefore provide resistance to any enemy that attempts to camp the hidden spawn points 100 150m into enemy territory.

I just don't buy your views of what should be done to "improve" this mod. Every suggestion you made in the post above, in my opinion, reduces the playability of this game and turns it into a simulator. If you go that far, then I suggest you start a modern warfare game that moves at the real pace of war and encompasses all of your ideas, but when you die, you are done. Create a new account/enlist and get back to the fight. once you complete Basic Training that is.
the smoker you drink, the player you get. Cheap, but effective.
Neuromante
Posts: 85
Joined: 2006-03-02 10:35

Post by Neuromante »

Well, in my view you have to buy a new pc. Or possibly die for real when you die in the game. [/sarcasm]

You think all I suggested is just for the sake of "uber realism"? You think that travelling for 30 seconds through the map is actually worse than waiting for 30 seconds staring at the spawn menu being able to do nothing? You think that spawning at a flag and getting insta-killed by a sniper shot is fun, and good for your gaming experience? Well, your concept of what's fun sounds quite odd to me.

At least, I got ideas. Ideas that solve:
1) Spawn camping.
2) People under-valuing vehicles, without having to wildly increase the spawn times for them. (7 minutes for a tank to come back? Come on.)
3) High respawn times for people, that result boring to most of the BF2 players.
4) Small infantry teams behind enemy lines that have actually a chance at doing anything, giving a real purpose (setting up ambushes) to the Special Forces class other than camping friendly flags with C4, and adding excitement being a sniper "deep behind enemy lines", providing RECON and picking off priority targets (all things that you cannot or that are hard or unrewarding right now). I don't think that the whole concept of snipers should be scrapped out, they are fun and not that unrealistic. I heard of many stories about snipers (or sniper teams) giving support to regular troops and killing lots of targets. The ghillie suit should be put on\put out by the player's wish.
5) AAS. God, I hate it. It takes away all of the freedom of movement you can have in the BF games. Take for example Gulf of Oman. Great map, combines together open-terrain, urban areas, marine assaults and there's even room for good aerial fights. Too bad that AAS forces to take flags in a certain order, so you can't feel like "free", and you can't really plan an attack like "We'll take this flag, then advance to this one, because this is unexpected to them" etc. The game now says how you have to play it, and it's not "fun" anymore. My idea creates frontlines without having to limitate the gameplay possibilities so much. Not to mention the "spawn camping fest" that breaks in when the USA team takes every flag other than the MEC UCB.
6) Lack of diverse kits on the battlefield (consequence of AAS). Ever noticed on Karkand (can't remember if 16 or 32 players), when the fight reaches the last MEC flag beyond the bridge how anyone picks up either a sniper or a RPK? It's because they know the fight will not take place anywhere else than the bridge. So everyone takes the bloody sniper, and the gameplay gets repetitive and boring.

@Terranova: I believe too that this spawning concept won't work with any map... Just most of 'em. In Karkand 2 the initial fight will take place around the bridges. The team who manages to push back the other one will now need to stretch its supply line, while the other one would have a shorter one due to the vicinity of the MEC UCB, so attackers would have (quite realistically) an advantage in "numbers", and will more likely push back the defenders who will need to regroup and organize a counter-attack. This is exactly why the vanilla Strike at Karkand works bad with AAS, because the MEC team can spawn right there while the USMC has to advance. This makes it too hard for the US to advance, and usually the fights end up being over the same flag again and again. "simulating" a supply line through flag taking doesn't and will not ever work well with a reality mod.

@ Ghostly: Yeah, I got some free time lately. Plus I like to write and I need to improve my english skills, so writing down walls of text like this seems to me a good thing to do. ;)
Last edited by Neuromante on 2006-04-28 12:08, edited 1 time in total.
Major Ursa Norte
Posts: 159
Joined: 2005-09-14 17:49

Post by Major Ursa Norte »

Neuromante,

First, let me applaud you on your English. It not being your first language, you express yourself well.

Now to your points.

1. spawn camping is what it is. If you are not in an uncap, then spawn camping is part of the game. True, it is no fun to be on the wrong end of it, but camping is a legitimate part of the game. Taking out the front line troops is what it is all about. Stop the advance and force the enemy to attack from a more distant location. I hate spawning just in time to catch a bullet, but if I have another flag to spawn upon, then I do that and work my way back to the front and try to take out the campers from an avenue that they might not expect.

2. Vehicles. I can't explain what makes one individual grab a transport vehicle and zoom off leaving others to stand around scratching their head. Tardism is about as close as that gets. I don't think you can do anything to change that behavior regardless of where you make players or vehicles spawn. Some folks just don't care.

3. re-spawn times. If I am not mistaken, there has been some traffic on this topic by the devs and I think this issue will be resolved in .3. Anyway, whether you have a 5 second re-spawn and have to traverse the entire map to get back to the fight or have a 30 second re-spawn and pop up next to the squad leader in the heat of battle, the ease of which you enter back into the fight should not be too light. After all, you died. You should have to incur some penalty for that. Instant re-spawning encourages Rambo type tactics.

4. snipers. Since this game does not hand out specific objectives and controlling territory is how you win, the true role of a sniper does not exist. High value targets are not in this game since there are no enemy tags displaying rank floating above enemy's heads. You don't know if your target is the squad leader or just some grunt. Having snipers as lone wolves removes one slot from a squad, which in this mod, can make a big difference if that slot could be filled with a medic or AT or support. If you snipe and are not in a squad, then unless you are on TeamSpeak with your mates, you are incapable of direct communication with anyone except through team chat. not very effective in a battle. Sniper teams performing recon and harassing fire could be an alternative, but only if they are attached to a commander and used for the purpose of spotting for arty or troop movement orders.

5. AAS. I am not the bigest fan of it either, but I understand why it is a part of PR. Capping flags in a willy nilly way destroys the whole concept, that even you promote, of supply lines. Battles are not a free for all. Objectives are taken in a certain order for their strategic value and the ability to support said objective once taken. Maybe if, as the commander you got to choose the order that the flags must be taken in, the issue of AAS would be more appealing. Success would then boil down to effective strategy, commander vs. commander type stuff.

6. diverse kits. i understand what you are saying here and agree. The only way to slow that down would be to have folks spawn as Assault, Medic or Support only and have the rest of the specialties resigned to pick up kits. Or just have everyone spawn as assault and the rest of the classes limited by pick up kits.

I do have ideas as well, it is just that my ideas seem to differ from yours.
the smoker you drink, the player you get. Cheap, but effective.
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