My gameplay concept

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Neuromante
Posts: 85
Joined: 2006-03-02 10:35

My gameplay concept

Post by Neuromante »

Playing PR I figured out that there are some big flaws (at least in my eyes), depending primarily from the BF2 layout. Things like flag respawning and reviving via defibs just don't fit in a reality mod, so I thought at what could these be replaced with.
Here is an almost copy&paste of a gameplay concept I did write for another BF2 modification, but that seems to be just perfect for PR.


1: Respawning
Respawning is the first and toughest issue I'm going to discuss. Someone said it's what made the BF series turn out different from other games. It's partially true, because the flag-respawning thing in BF 1942 was at the time a rather innovative idea. The fact is that I believe it actually has a lot of flaws. I bet that most of you know that feeling of being in a tank and having almost capped a flag, then a full infantry squad with C4, mines and SRAWs just appears right where you are and blow you to hell. That happened because of the flag spawn, that should just be cut down to the main uncappable base, having to drive your way to the fight. Why?
  1. To prevent things like what I described above.
  2. To give the "frontline" feeling everyone seems to want (myself included) without forcing it (AAS, which I partially don't like)
  3. To make people advance together, instead of cahotically spread around the map.
  4. To give a chance to small infantry teams setting up real ambushes.
  5. To make people use transports as troop transports, and not as light tanks in the case of APCs or like one-person-taxis in the case of FAVs and the like.
  6. With this there'd be a chance to lower the spawn time, since there's not anymore the need for long spawn times (to permit one team to advance while the other is dead, and to prevent Jihad jeeping etc.). I'd personally suggest a spawn time of 5 to 10 seconds, and no man-down-time. See "3: Reviving".
By driving to the battle, you'd have to scan the area for possible threats, specially in urban areas. Even a little fighting force could stop and inflict heavy losses to your convoy by setting up some trap on the way. This gives much more the real feeling of being in a battle zone. Plus would add some way to actually cut down reinforcements.

Squad respawning may be kept, but limited to just a situation: When the leader is driving any vehicle. That way squadleaders hiding will not anymore "exploit" the respawning to send their fellows attack some flag, because they'd have no chance to hide at all.

2: Player Classes*
-Recon: Has a light body armor. Carries a full-size assault rifle, 4 magazines, a couple hand grenades, a couple colored smoke nade (to direct bombing or player controlled artilley fire, if you are willing to introduce it in the game), binoculars and the laser designator, or alternatively a bolt-action sniper rifle useful at mid-range, a pistol and the laser designator. He scores 1 teamwork point per every 4 different enemies he spots.

-Assault: Has a heavy body armor. Carries a full sized assault rifle, 4 magazines, 4 hand nades, 2 smoke nades that possibly create a smoke screen that's larger and lasts a little longer than 'nilla ones. An alternative kit may include an underbarrel GL with 4 to 6 nades with more range, a way larger blast radius than vanilla's and a true arming time.

-Support: He has heavy body armor. Carries a light machinegun, 2 mags\belts, a pistol and has the ability to refill teammates with bullets, this means no explosive devices (C4, rockets, hand nades etc), unless if he's in a transport vehicle. Being in a transport vehicle could give him the ability to even give away C4 and stuff, or even tank shells and HMG ammo to everyone close to the vehicle he's in. His bags can be thrown and picked up by people, to be istantly loaded up with ammo.

-Spec-Ops: Has light body armor. Carries a suppressed (?) compact assault rifle, 4 magazines, 2 hand nades, 1 smoke nade, 1 colored smoke nade, 2 powerful packs of C4 that can be planted instead of thrown. His two C4 pack combined are enough to disable (see "vehicles") or kill an APC and severely damage a MBT. An alternative kit may instead have remotely detonated Claymores or a single use AT weapon, like the AT4.

-Medic: Has light body armor. Carries a full-size assault rifle, 4 magazines, 2 hand grenades, 1 medipack that cannot be thrown. Doesn't have field shock pads anymore (see "reviving"). He can heal everyone inside the vehicle he is with, except himself.

-Anti-Tank: Has heavy body armor. Carries a pistol or a Personal Defence Weapon, plus an unguided rocket launcher and 3 total rockets. I'd personally like to choose the type of each warhead, like 1 HEAT, 1 Fragmentation and 1 Thermobaric. Balancing your loadout could be a lot important... I'm not sure whether it's possible in BF2 though. The HEAT should be able to blow out or disable a tank in one shot, if aimed at the correct spot. An alternative kit could feature a heat-seeking or wire guided missile useful at long ranges like the Javelin or stuff like that.

-Sniper: Has light body armor. Carries a bolt action sniper rifle useful at long ranges, a pistol, 2 smoke nades. No claymores, he has carefully place himself or to rely on teammates to watch his back. Alternative kits may contain a semi-auto scoped rifle useful in urban combat or a quite inaccurate but deadly anti material rifle that can disable light vehicles or parked planes with one well placed shot.

-Engineer: has light body armor. Carries an assault rifle or a combat shotgun, 2 nades. Has the ability to repair vehicles (just while on foot, though) and to deploy mines or to set up deployable defences (static ATGMs, mortars, MGs). Obviously just one per respawn, unless he picks the one which placed back up. Everything he deploys fades away 1 minute after he dies, if not used anymore.

3: Reviving
The way BF2 did the reviving option for medics is fun and useful. But it's abused like it is right now, and it looks like it's out of place in a mod like PR. I just thought that it could be changed to something like so: When your health drops to less than 50% you are affected by bleeding, and if it drops even more to say 20-30% you can't walk anymore (you have to crawl) and the only weapon you are allowed to use is the knife. If you get severely hit you still have a chance of getting off the field, and make it to a medic. But if the enemy is able to hit you once again, you die without chance of being revived. This is meant to replace the revive feature with something that fits better with the style of the game and that can't be easily "exploited".

4: Vehicles
Every vehicle in the game should match the specifics of the real thing in fact of speed, armaments, damage dealt and all, while taking in count the BF2's engine limitations and balancing issues. Man portable AT weapons should pose a real threat to MBTs and APCs (pretty much like they do right now in PR) that would have to be supported by helicopters and infantry to survive in urban areas. Every vehicle (this including helicopters, airplanes, transports, APCs and MBTs) should have a third state between "Operative" and "Destroyed", the "Disabled" state. This may be triggered by a >70% health loss, and would make the disabled vehicle unable to move or shoot anymore, but still protecting the crew from small arms fire and letting them be able to exit and try running to safety. The disabled vehicle could be repaired later by an engineer and reused. Let's see how this would work per every vehicle:

Jeeps: Can be disabled with one well placed .50 to the engine or any AT weapon not scoring a direct hit to the engine (which would obviously blow the vehicle up). I know hummvees are generally armored enough to counter up 7.62x39 bullets and close hand-grenades without taking damage at all. Can be damaged by direct hits from rifle launched nades or AT weapons.
APCs: Can be disabled or even destroyed by the typical amount of C4 carried by special forces or by direct missile hits to the driver\gunner area. Can protect dismounting ground troops with its armor and offer covering fire for them. Since the doors are on the rear, I'd like to actually get out from the rear rather than from the side...
Tanks: Can be disabled by AT mines, ATGM hits and amounts of C4 usually higher than what the SF guy carries. Can only be destroyed after one hit by high-penetrating missiles (Kornet, TOW), other tanks, top attacking missiles or rockets aimed to the weaker spots. Tanks may preserve the BF style layout by combining driver and gunner in one seat, but get an additional commander\gunner seat, that controls a remotely operated .50 machinegun on the top while being protected. The MG has limited ammo (like every MG in the game should have), its sight gives a quite limited field of view, but has a 4x zoom capability. The commander would be useful spotting threats and protecting the tank from infantry. Without a commander or supporting teammates tanks would be almost defenseless in urban warfare.
Helicopters**: They preserve the BF2 layout again. To the pilot are given quite limited FFARs that are useful killing infantry, transports or APCs. To the co-pilot is given control of guided missiles and of the front autocannon, with a chance in choosing the type of ammo when possible (HE or KE) and maybe a zoom feature too. They can be disabled with an AA missile, a rocket\cannon hit to the tail rotor or several .50 hits on some weak spot. Disabling in helicopters causes entering in auto-rotation.
Planes: Can be disabled by single missile hits or by 4-5 hits by other planes' gun. Usually one or two more hits should make the disabled plane go kaboom. There could be an "ejection seat" thing that takes a couple seconds to be triggered after you press the button. Simply exiting the plane should result in certain death. See "Countermeasures" for further details.

5: Countermeasures
Countermeasures should be close to the real counterparts in effects and uses.
-Flares: Since most modern thermal-imaging missiles are able to track planes without getting fooled by flares, so flares should only help to get out of a missile's way, when combined with evasive maneuvers. A good pilot may be able to know the threat he's facing, and be able to use the most appropriate way to beat a missile homing him (turning speed, maximum speed etc). Also I'd like to have a limited number of flares with a much less longer reload time between releases, like maximum 1 second, and that get released one or two per press.
-Chaffs: They may be just released with flares, to justify the fact they fool even missiles that are supposed to depend by radars.
-Tank released Smoke Screens: Those Should be wider and last longer than in BF2. Plus I know those are usually heated up to fool the thermal-seeking missile, making Kornets, Javelins and such miss the intended target.

6: Commander Mode
There's a few things I don't like about the cmdr mode. He uses his powers to make kills, instead of helping his teammates, most of times. I'd suggest to make it like so:
Sat scan: no more sat scan. If the commander is willing to look for enemies, he already has a zoom function on the map to do that. That's the best sat scan representation we can have, and I'd keep it as the only one.
UAV: I don't like the way UAVs work. It's too easy to actually instantly know where the enemy is, like having a wallhack. The in-game representation of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles should match the 'nilla Sat Scan one. It spots enemy threats on the map then flies away, but without exactly telling the kind of threat (type of the vehicle) and just the larger ones. No infantry or FAVs, they need to have a chance being stealth.
Artillery: The commander can't drop artillery anymore. Since it looks like we'll have player controlled arty the commander will just be free to suggest general targets or particular targets to squads with one artillery player in them. Squad leaders could be able to set arty targets for their squad too.

Commanders get 1 point per every 5-6 targets they mark with the zoom feature.

7: Spawn Camping
Spawn camping is something that shouldn't ever exist. Approaching an enemy UCB should mean instant death, by static defences placed in strategic locations and a slow health loss when you enter an enemy base, just like the punishment for going off the borders of the map. We can justify it saying that's ground fire. After 10 seconds into the enemy base you'd lose health until you die. This affects everyone except planes, that should have a chance bombing their targets (and that need much more room to maneuver) They'd have a hard time because of static player controlled AA, though.


I know this is amazingly long, but I hope at least someone reads this all and tells me what he thinks about this.

*I found that a similar class suggestion (http://realitymod.com/forum/t3748-class ... ngthy.html) had already been submitted here, it's also much more complete than my original class idea. I'm reporting my classes here because my concept was built with them in mind.
**I liked this idea too: http://realitymod.com/forum/t4493-away- ... ssles.html
Last edited by Neuromante on 2006-03-10 15:49, edited 1 time in total.
Katarn
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 3358
Joined: 2006-01-18 22:15

Post by Katarn »

I read through the revive thing and I think you're on to something. I'd still like to see the ability to be defibulated after you're critically wounded though. Like, you can have your health taken to 0% or below once, but the second time you're dead for good. I like the only-crawling thing for 20-30% wounded guys though, sounds quite cool, but they should be able to use their main weapon.
Ninjo
Posts: 60
Joined: 2006-01-15 18:32

Post by Ninjo »

I like your ideas, only diff I would say if you really wanted to be realistic is to change the sniper to a combat marksman class...snipers aren't really used in combat much anymore, but more to knock out specific people like officers or whatever on long stalk type attacks. They operate alone, whereas combat marksman are parts of squads.

Personally I'm a huge fan of the spawn at main only with short spawn times, as well as removal of the defibs...hopefully your suggestions get taken to heart.
Peter-SAS
Posts: 370
Joined: 2006-02-06 17:04

Post by Peter-SAS »

Spawn raping is map design. I hear the next version of PR will apply our guidlines on such things as time to loose control of a flag (when enemy inside, goes grey) on a very short timer, whilst time to take the flag.
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Ingame: Peter-SAS
Class: Whatever the SL wants ;)
IllvilJa
Posts: 7
Joined: 2006-03-09 19:55

Post by IllvilJa »

Lot of good points (yes, I read it all).

Here are my $0.02 on spawnraping:

I don't really see spawnraping as much of a problem (especially not if we shorten the respawn time and only respawn in the main base or in squadleader vehicles). When I'm subject to it, I'm just trying to adapt as good as I can to the fact that I'm in a (very) challenging situation. Even if I die 6 times in a row, I consider it up to me to survive the base-raping when I respawn, not up to the enemy to quit spawn-raping. After all, he is suppsosed to give me a hard time and when possible, a very hard time (e.g spawnraping).


That said, I think your suggestion is very good. If one wants to counter spawnraping (I know a lot of players want to) the solution is in my humble opinion to do what you suggest: not to litter the poor heads of the players with yet another rule (in our case "thou shalt not spawnrape") but instead, the spawrape preventing logic should be taken out of the poor players head (one less rule to keep track of for both players and admins) and into the game itself. This of course requires well designed maps to ensure that ppl spawn in locations where they are not exposed to fire from enemies located outside of the "forbidden zone". The latter can be a challenge considering enemy artillery, but there are ways to prevent enemy artillery to fire the main base and we also have the alternative to simply allow the enemy to shell the main base (or actually, main bases... if one main UCB is shelled, the player simply spawns on one of the other unshelled UCBs in their own "forbidden zone").

(Needless to say, there is always one way to counter a spawnraper... either fight fiercely and well from your underdog position, surviving the spawnrape and then blow up the spawnrapers... or you call in your teammates to wipe out the spawnrapers. Either way hard way... spawrape countered ;) . ).

The only real problem I have with "spawnraping" is that a word like "rape" has been used when referring to such a thing as a tactic in online games. I know, "kill" and "death" are also strong words used quite frequently in online game lingo but I find "rape" quite more offensive and a bit out of the line. Could be that I'm not a native English speaker (I'm Swedish) and there might have been some "softening" of the seriousness of the word "rape" that I've missed (but I seriously doubt there is). But basically this is my personal opinion and my own problem. (other than that, I'm ok with spawnrapin even if I'm usueally the one being the "victim")

Best regards

/IllvilJa
Last edited by IllvilJa on 2006-03-10 11:33, edited 1 time in total.
acadiancrusader
Posts: 140
Joined: 2005-06-14 00:30

Post by acadiancrusader »

i've always found that the word 'rape' in a video game context to be very offensive. infact it's quite infantile to use the word as it is currently in fps's. spawncamping yes, spawnraping no.
Neuromante
Posts: 85
Joined: 2006-03-02 10:35

Post by Neuromante »

Edited. Sorry, I just found that was the therm of choice referring to that particular situation.
IllvilJa
Posts: 7
Joined: 2006-03-09 19:55

Post by IllvilJa »

Oh, thanks for editing away that word!

Just have to say that I were not objecting specifically to that you used it in your long article, I was just complaining over what seem to be an overall accepted nomenclature in the online gaming community.

But thanks again!

(...and I learned a new (better) word for it as well :) ).

Best regards

/IlvJa
Pence
Posts: 2248
Joined: 2006-02-04 06:10

Post by Pence »

'[R-DEV wrote:Katarn']I read through the revive thing and I think you're on to something. I'd still like to see the ability to be defibulated after you're critically wounded though. Like, you can have your health taken to 0% or below once, but the second time you're dead for good. I like the only-crawling thing for 20-30% wounded guys though, sounds quite cool, but they should be able to use their main weapon.
Defib's should be taken out, its sooooo unrealistic especialy in response to a shot to the head.
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beta
Posts: 274
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Post by beta »

Pence wrote:Defib's should be taken out, its sooooo unrealistic especialy in response to a shot to the head.
Although I agree defibulators probably weren't the best choice, the basic concept should remain. Compare BF2 to BF1942, BF2 has WAY more opportunities (not that everyone uses them *cough* vanilla *cough*) for teamwork than BF1942, I believe that is due to 1)the concept of defibulators and 2)squad leader spawning.

In a different thread ( don't remeber which one ... ) I propsed a system to make unbelievable revives a thing of the past. I'll try to summarize it here.

Basically, the whole system depends on IF one can modify the player's "status" (Critically Wounded or Killed) when they are Critically Wounded. Now, say you were shot once in the chest with a 7.62 round from an AK-47, you weren't wearing any body armour, so you promptly fell to the ground and are now dying (tough luck :mrgreen :) , so you are in the CRITICALLY WOUNDED state. Now, say the same person who shot you runs up to your dying corpse, they decide they don't want you to be getting up and killing them, so they shoot you AGAIN in the chest and because of this you are now KILLED.

This would GREATLY reduce (if not COMPLETELY eliminate) the "heroic" (stupid?) medics who run into the MG fire to save their buddy who's been shot 15 times ...

Also, the damage system should be changed: one shot to the head (from pretty much anything) will KILL you (ie: KILLED state, NOT the CRITICALLY WOUNDED state), and unarmoured people should be KILLED easier, armoured people should be CRITICALLY WOUNDED easily, but making them KILLED would be harder, so basically armour would save your life, BUT it wouldn't allow you to turn around and shoot the guy who just shot you twice in the back ...


That took a little to long ... :)
that should just be cut down to the main uncappable base, having to drive your way to the fight.
I think (somewhere ...) I wrote this idea too, I (and you too it seems :) ) think it would be a great idea, I think you're right in that it will make the battles seem more realistic and less like "flag tag" ...
Spawn raping is map design. I hear the next version of PR will apply our guidlines on such things as time to loose control of a flag (when enemy inside, goes grey) on a very short timer, whilst time to take the flag.
Sounds like a great idea!

Spawn camping generally comes around when one team is getting dominated, BUT the enemy team can't take their flag, so they are frustrated and kill everyone as they spawn ... simple solution to this type: DO NOT make any uncappable flags!

If they push you all the way back to your carrier, BOARD your carrier KILL EVERYONE onboard your carrier, they DAMN WELL deserve to take that carrier!

For the type of spawn camping where you are taking a flag and they spawn AS you are taking it, the map Road to Kyogan'Ni had a great solution, the spawn points are about 100-200m from the flag in a position hidden (or defendable) from the flag, so it seems like a counter-attack instead of a magical-teleport-attack.

I still think the best solution is to have the ONLY spawn be at the main base or on the squad leader, and only being able to spawn on the SL when he is in a vehicle is an EXCELLENT idea! Still keeps the teamwork, but it reduces the exploitability of it ... GREAT idea!

As for the disabling of vehicles; again another great idea!

Currently, disabling a vehicle means it will blow up in 5 seconds, to me at least, that isn't really what disabling a vehicle truly is. If you blow off a tire of a car, it is disable, doesn't mean it's going to exploded 5 seconds later :)

Although I don't agree that the engineer should be able to FULLY repair a vehicle "in the field", they be able to "undisable" it so they can get back to base to get it repaired.



Overall, there are some GREAT ideas here, nice work!

EDIT: bad spelling ...
six7
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Post by six7 »

Beta, the thing about revies is an excellent idea. bravo.

I also agree that when spawning on a flag, you should spawn about 100m behind your flag so we dont get the magical teleporting soldier effect. would also help with the spawn camp issue

flags still need to be spawn points because if they weren't, people would just bypass them to go behind enemy lines and spawncamp.

the idea about vehicles is a great one. nail a tank in the treads with AT, the tank cant move (but it can still shoot). hit it in the back of the turret and the tank crewman would die as well as the entire tank be disabled but an engineer could come and repair the disabled tank. it would make tank pilots think twice about taking their rresources behind enemy lines because if the enemy disabled the tank, it wouldnt be able to respawn. this could also lead to some cool battles trying to secure the area around a damaged tank for the engineer to repair., and the enemy could set an ambush around a downed tank. IRL tanks may not take too much to disable, but to make one explode into peices would take extremely heavy ordinance or a demolitions man rigging a disabled tank with explosives. would be amazing if the dev team could implement some of this stuff
Cerberus
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Post by Cerberus »

It's ridiculous how vehicles just explode, especially the helicopters. I wish it was more like OFP (I shot an AH-64 with my Shilka and it spun out of control).

Good idea for the reviving, beta
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AznLB
Posts: 475
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Post by AznLB »

As far as I know, the idea of only one spawnpoint can be done server-side. Simply go through the "GameplayObjects.con" file and delete all the spawnpoints besides the main for each team. All the Control Points will remain, but you can only respawn at the main base. Then it's just a matter of turning the spawn time down to 5 or 10, and you're done!

Also, the class names in BF2 are unrealistic. There is no such thing as a "Support" or "Assault" IRL, rather, these would becalled "Automatic Rifleman" and "Rifleman" respectively. I revamped some Localization files a while ago that changed all the class names so they're more realistic.
Cerberus
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Post by Cerberus »

The only thing bad about your renaming, AznLB, is the fact that the Chinese and MEC now have corpsmen
"Practice proves more than theory, in any case."

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"i so regret searching "giant hentai penis" on google images though ;_;"

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six7
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Post by six7 »

^yea im really liking that, thanks. now i dont get the little "you got a resupply point" every time i throw and ammo bag
Figisaacnewton
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Post by Figisaacnewton »

Things I agree 100% with:

Beta's Classes
A 'disabled' state for all vehicles between working and dead. (See EOD for 42 to see how this is done with helis, you shoot them to a point and the pilot loses control, and has to attempt a crash landing, which you may or may not survive)
Being Killed more often
A more realistic medic system
Spawning at main base only. Not on other flags, and not on SLs. Only in certain vehicles, and thats a MAYBE.
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AiRfOrCe
Retired PR Developer
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Post by AiRfOrCe »

Very impressive post Neuromante. There are a lot of things here that I definately agree with.

First off, the idea of spawning at the main base is a really great idea (although I think that it should only be done for SOME map, not all). If that is the case, I think that the spawn time should be no more than 5 seconds though. I'd hate to be constantly waiting or travelling. It's one thing to be travelling and get into some good firefights, where you're actually TRYING not to go rambo, and something totally different to die after travelling 30 sec into battle, and then waiting another 10 to do it all over again.
If you decrease home base spawn time, you also reduce spawncamping.

I also like the idea of disabling vehicles. I personally hate using vehicles (except air vehicles - I'm a hardcore pilot :P ) or possibly a transport now and then. I consider myself to be strictly infantry, and I believe that a single tank in BF2 possesses far too much power against infantry. I mean, when a person is able to rack up 50 kills and 0 deaths while camping a flag in a tank, it's pathetic. In fact, it's not only pathetic, it's extremely frustrating for the infantry. They don't even try to cap the flag. They sit there and wait for people to spawn. I hate ground vehicles. Period. So yeah, getting back to the idea of disabling it - I really like that. It means that if I hit their treads ONCE with a rocket, then he's a sitting duck basically, and can't maneuever around or get away.

The next thing I like (but have some suggestions on) is the new class distinctions.

I personally believe that the sniper needs the claymore. I think that the new patch in BF2 made the claymore way too overpowered, and that's totally ridiculous. However, the claymores SHOULD exist for the sniper (or combat marksman - whatever the case may be). They really help them if they happen to get separated from their squad while they're on top of a building sniping. It's rather hard to defend against MGs when you have a bolt action rifle and a pistol. Take away the grenades if you'd like, but keep those claymores.

I also think that the sniper should assume the role of Recon as well, as opposed to creating a second class. Rename the sniper 'Recon' or 'Combat Marksman' or whatever you guys would like, and hand him a laser designator as well.

As per reviving, I like the idea that you drop when you get to about 20% health. However, you should still be able to carry your regular weapon. What this would do is make it even more difficult to confirm a kill (in addition to PR not announcing your kill). You'd have to carefully approach the target or watch the area after you thought you hit the guy to ensure that it was indeed a kill shot. Makes for more interesting and realistic combat.

I personally have not played PR yet, because I don't have a worthy GFX card to replace my fried one yet. However, I'm speaking from what I hear, and based on what I believe are good suggestions.

All in all, I like your ideas though.
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six7
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Post by six7 »

no the whole point of spawning on sl's is to encourage teamwork. it would be so hard to organize a squad with this feature. having to walk all the way from your main would also be a pain
Szarko
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Post by Szarko »

Maybe we could test out the spawn at main only idea on the Gloryhoundz test server? To see how that goes?
six7
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Post by six7 »

like someone said before make it so that people spawn 50-100m behind the flag that you click on so its not like an instant teleport, but a counter-attack on a flag. also makes for less spawn camping on cappable flags.it is a good compromise to spawning only on main, wihtout the long walk and smaller importance of flags (flags not being spawnpoints would be nearly pointless to cap since there is no benefit besides ticket bleeding)
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