Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.
vilhelm123
Posts: 417
Joined: 2007-09-23 20:11

Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by vilhelm123 »

Kirra wrote: Trust me, if there is a commander around this kind of separation works very well. Its much easier for him to talk to important vehicles directly instead of asking that squad to tell that APC to go there, pick some guys up and support them over there.

Much as it pains me to say it, when was the last time you saw a commander?
Lots of love
Vilhelm xx
epoch
Retired PR Developer
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by epoch »

Consider typical PR server:

  • 64 player server with squadless kick enabled
  • 2 slots reserved therefore maximum 62
  • 62 divided by 2 = 31 per team
But ... for example ...

  • 9 uber-l337 APC/sniper/chopper/combat catering locked squads of 2 people per squad
  • 2 * 9 = 18
  • 31 - 18 = 13
  • max squads reached
  • 13 people kicked for not being in a squad.

Mathematics. The foundation of the universe.

It's not hard.


[R-MOD]Cp: epoch if I wasn't dancing right now I'd shoot you.
Kirra
Posts: 1143
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by Kirra »

vilhelm123 wrote:Much as it pains me to say it, when was the last time you saw a commander?
Good point there...
Warpig-
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by Warpig- »

I hate locked squads personally but I find that happens on certain servers, others are fine. It all comes down the server. I can see the practicallity of locking for REAL reasons (like snipers/reccy, log squads, APC drivers, pilots) but not because you and a mate want to **** around, or you've got a half full clan squad and you end up waiting an hour for the other 3 clannies to drop in.
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SqnLdr
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by SqnLdr »

There are benefits to having unlocked squads. For one, the social aspect.
There is nothing that can be achieved by locking a squad that cannot be achieved by talking and being polite.
[T&T] SqnLdr

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[uBp]Irish
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by [uBp]Irish »

SqnLdr wrote:There are benefits to having unlocked squads. For one, the social aspect.
There is nothing that can be achieved by locking a squad that cannot be achieved by talking and being polite.
except if the people you're trying to communicate to..

a) dont speak the same language
b) speak the same language but decide to do their own thing.
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Scot
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by Scot »

I sometimes lock squads when doing it for PRT for the simple reason we are normally a squad of 6-8 guys, who need to play together to get better as a squad etc. I don't think this as elitist at all, this is simply playing with each other more so you get better. However I'm the first to try and get pubby squads going, I enjoy it :) Some of the best squads I've played with have been pubby squads, or a mixture. In reference to OP, if you really don't like the 'no locked squads' rule, then go play on a different server, there are plenty. And Epoch mate, if I ever find a server like that, I will be happy to be kicked because that is not at all what PR aims for.

There are some cases when locked squads are okay, but I still think that any more than 2-3 locked squads and it's getting too much.
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SqnLdr
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by SqnLdr »

'[uBp wrote:Irish;944567']except if the people you're trying to communicate to..

a) dont speak the same language
b) speak the same language but decide to do their own thing.
...Kick.
[T&T] SqnLdr

Tactics & Teamwork | All Maps: 217.146.85.30:16567
Helping to encourage Team-Level public play one round at a time
[uBp]Irish
Posts: 1794
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by [uBp]Irish »

and there's always a dedicated admin on T/T... because I've played before and there usually isnt.

I've had people steal/TK for helicopters from a squad that was open and named "Helo Trans", call for an admin, and have nothing done.

which is why I play on TG.
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vilhelm123
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by vilhelm123 »

Irish please go to the Feedback thread or the tacteam.org is you have something to say about the server, this thread is about locked squads. Not about your feelings towards T&T.
Lots of love
Vilhelm xx
Cobhris
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by Cobhris »

A lot of times, I see people locking squads not because they are the "designated sniper team" or the "tank squad", but because they're just a couple of people who don't want anyone except their friends coming into the squad. Some pub players are actually quite good; they're just not interested in clans. If you're running a language squad (such as ENG VOIP), just use the kick button for people speaking the wrong language.
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PFunk
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by PFunk »

'[R-COM wrote:epoch;944548']Consider typical PR server:

  • 64 player server with squadless kick enabled
  • 2 slots reserved therefore maximum 62
  • 62 divided by 2 = 31 per team
But ... for example ...

  • 9 uber-l337 APC/sniper/chopper/combat catering locked squads of 2 people per squad
  • 2 * 9 = 18
  • 31 - 18 = 13
  • max squads reached
  • 13 people kicked for not being in a squad.

Mathematics. The foundation of the universe.

It's not hard.
Thats a flawed argument. All of this anti-locked squad stuff is flawed.

What we have here is an extremist reaction to poor habits of some people. Fact is that locked squads should be viable when they are necessary. Sniper squads are in fact necessarily small. They must be small.

Why should sniper squads be no larger than 3 people? Number one you don't need 6 people to achieve the objective of a sniper team. You need a sniper, a spotter, and if you have the right person, preferably a patient one, a rear guard who can double as medic. Further it actually detracts from the effectiveness of the squad and the team to have 6 people in a sniper squad.

Reasons:
#1. 6 people are easier to spot than 2 or 3 plus these people aren't trained soldiers. Most pubbies don't know what it means to 'not silhouette yourself on that ridge'. They get impatient and understandably want to see whats happening.

#2. Since you only need 3 people to achieve the objectives of a sniper/recon squad you are actually losing 3 rifles from the battle. Your team is basically out 3 players.

I play in the PRT, the sniper doesn't have 5 other people with him. You need as many full infantry squads as you can get.

I also played on a no locked squads server this week with a friend. We were doing a sniper squad with the two of us. When we were forced to open the squad it immediately took away out ability to act effectively. Instead of stalking the enemy and doing recon we spent more time corralling all of the new players and keeping them disciplined. I also don't blame them for silhouetting themselves cause its bloody boring to have to sit there and watch someone else rack up an awesome score against an enemy you can't even see.

Lastly it was totally unnecessary to force us to unlock the squad because there were only 4 squads total. There were enough unassigned players to create a full squad anyway.

I think its just anal and lazy. If you have admin who are dedicated enough to warn a locked squad within 2 minutes of me creating one then you should be able to keep people from making 9 useless locked squads when a server is full.

The worst case scenario of having useless APC squads that don't do anything is something admins have to deal with. I've played on TG lots. Start of a round people will say in chat "I call Huey, making Pilot squad" and the admins will force people to recognize it. The squad leader of an asset squad gets to choose how many pilots and then can lock the squad. It works, no wasted assets, fair sharing. Through that you create a community that respects and expects that.

You don't need to create a lazy all encompassing rule that just shortcuts active admin-ing.

I say you either do what TG guys do or you just let it roll. Its frustrating to not be able to lock a squad if you know what you're doing. You can't punish good players for what you fear the bad ones will do. If you get the too many locked squads with unassigned people thing then just tell certain squads to open up. Actively manage the situation based on whats happening. Its not sensible to enforce martial law in a suburb on a calm day, so why do it on a half full server when there aren't any asshats fucking around?
[PR]NATO|P*Funk
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epoch
Retired PR Developer
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by epoch »

I wouldn't say my argument is flawed, but it's clearly (and deliberately) an extreme example. I've seen 9 'under-manned' locked squads before.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to the same thing to these discussions. Whether it's locked squads, base rape, named asset squads, there are always varying rules on different servers.

And that's the good thing - variety. Because variety = choice. And choice is good. You patronise the servers you like, and those which are unpopular will fade away or change.

Server owners, clans and communities choose their server rules typically because it's how they wish to play, and as they provide the server, the choice is theirs.

The choice to play in it is yours.


[R-MOD]Cp: epoch if I wasn't dancing right now I'd shoot you.
gazzthompson
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by gazzthompson »

id rather have locked squads than squads that are made by people who have no intention of leading but are forced to, and 5 other people.. you can tell straight away what squads these are , you expand the squad on the team screen and first things first, no officer kit (probably sniper, or just rifleman) click on squad and hole squad is spread around everywhere. new players who join this might actually think this is what PR is about! then come complain on forums for lack of teamwork :P
Jevski
Posts: 397
Joined: 2007-03-16 02:39

Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by Jevski »

Yes locked squad can be usefull, but try to combine it a little. Instead of having a 2 man sniper locked sqd and a 2man transport sqd add them together instead of using 2 squads that could have the same job done in one. And if you need to communicate with out hearing the sniper/chooper team just mute them ingame, it really is that simple.

PS: Pfunk on TG you cant call "huey" either commander assigns the assets, or its a first come first get, if there isnt a commander
Mack Impact
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by Mack Impact »

+1 to PFunks reply

If you are doing something out of the ordinary, like cutting of supplyroutes, you only need 2 guys (combat engy + safety for ex.) If you put 4 more guys in the squad and they are capping flags and encounter enemy inf squad --> 4 vs. 6 = death to the outnumbered squad, 'cause the 2 are being USEFULL elsewhere...

Ex. Muttrah US side

-COMMANDER
Squad1, APC = 2 acps, 4 crewman, 2 inf with the log. truck
Squad2, HeloTrans = 3 hueys, 3 pilots, littlebirds for reserve LOCKED
Squad3, AttHELO = 1 gunhuey, 1 cobra, SL (for spotting), 3 pilots LOCKED
Squad4, INF = 6 inf
Squad5, Recon = sniper, spotter LOCKED (actually no need for even a third, if they died = they failed)
Squad6, AirCav, 1 littlebird, SL, pilot, 4 reg. inf
Squad7, ForwOps, SL, combat engy, medic (for destroying located AAs and assortes tasks) LOCKED
Squad8, empty
Squad9, empty

So thats 4 locked squads out of 7

I do not see any objections to use locked squads in this mannor, do not get me wrong, I do not approve the useless locked squads that run around the map and do only baseraping...

What I would like to see is something else than all 6 man inf squads, setting their rally/FB right in the middle of the flag and moving on a straight line to the next flag like lemmings...tactics & proper use of assets
Airsoft
Retired PR Developer
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by Airsoft »

I don't like this rule but I can see why it's in effect. My driver gotten kicked for a 2 man locked squad manning a scimitar with me, then I got kicked for 1 manning driving back to base :\ Personally I think that friends/clanmates should have to right to have a squad of themselfes in some cases wont be using ingame voip so it'll be useless to any random guy that joins in. It doesen't really need a 3rd or 4th man to join an apache squad if there's only 1 on the map.
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Masaq
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by Masaq »

Both arguments have points that are valid to those that hold those views.

/Discussion, frankly. This debate has been had before and it'll be had again... play on the servers that have the rules in place that you want to play with, and quit bitching about servers that don't have their rules set the way you want them on a server they pay for.

No player has any right to demand that any particular server is run in any particular way above and beyond the minimum requirements for the server license, to be quite honest.

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Mack Impact
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by Mack Impact »

Airs0ft_S0ldier11 wrote:I don't like this rule but I can see why it's in effect. My driver gotten kicked for a 2 man locked squad manning a scimitar with me, then I got kicked for 1 manning driving back to base :\ Personally I think that friends/clanmates should have to right to have a squad of themselfes in some cases wont be using ingame voip so it'll be useless to any random guy that joins in. It doesen't really need a 3rd or 4th man to join an apache squad if there's only 1 on the map.
I know what you are talking about, but here is what you could do in that scenario..

If you would call your squad SCIMITAR, you could have the other one join in as well. If you are using separate voip channel with your gunner, tell the other scimitar crew that ( its actually very common between gunner/driver pairs ), chances are they are using the same deal. Then you can actually have clear coms and still have communication between vehicles if needed.

Then if I would see in the squadlist a lonely truckersquad ( usually 1 guy with a log. truck), invite him too. In my experience, the lonely guy who just want to help his fellow teammates by supplying them with crates & repairs is a teamwork oriented player, maybe a guy that does not speak english, put a good asset to you if get damaged.
He usually is a quiet-sort-a-fella, but will try to inform you if he sees tanks etc.

The truckers I speak of, I know few by name and if I see one, I will always invite them to my LOCKED 2 scimitar/brdm, 4 crewman squad without any hesitation. You who recognize them selves by my description, you can pat yourself on the back...The truckers that use the trucks to their plain joyriding in way behind enemylines to run people over, shame on you.. You give truckdrivers a bad reputation

Excuse me rambling on...but one last thing, do not judge all squadlockers by the few that soil PR for everyone. There are teamplay oriented people in both locked/unlocked squads, their actions will show who they really are...

PS. If someone locks a squad, it does not always mean that they think they are better than you, what they are doing might be the answer to the locked squad (the 5 man squad with HMMWW is a good example).
Deadfast
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Re: Locking Squads - Server Admins use your head

Post by Deadfast »

Everyone is talking about how impolite it is to lock your squad, but how polite is to ask to leave/kick people out of it?


Let's say I wanna operate a 3 man tank squad.

There is enough slots for new squads so creating mine for just 3 people shouldn't be a problem.


OK, squad created, positions assigned but can't lock it.

Guy joins it: "Sorry Joe, only 3 man squad"
Another one: "Frank, sorry, but the squad is full"
Yet another: "I'm sorry Tom, we only need 3 guys"


Great, now I just basically told 3 folks to piss off.

Now they have to find another squad and wait 2 minutes to request a kit...


Couldn't all this be avoided by simply locking it?
Locked

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