All round classes

[T]Terranova7 · Post by **[T]Terranova7** » 2006-05-02 21:03

This would be my class suggestion, seven kits overall.

Key notes to consider.

*The Dedicated anti-tank class has been removed in favor of one-shot disposable AT rockets for assault infantry

*Exact loadouts can vary depending on the scenario, unit, and branch

Assault/Rifleman - M16 W/M203, AT-4, Smoke Grenades, Knife

Sharpshooter (Or whatever name you find suitable) - M4A1 W/Special Optics (Depending on map and scenario this weapon and optics may vary), Sidearm (.45), Knife, Ammo Box

Support/SAW Gunner - M249 SAW, Sidearm (9mm), Knife

Sniper/Designated Marksman - M40A3, M95 (Depending on map scenario), Sidearm, Smoke Grenades, Knife

Combat Engineer - Unmodified M4A1 or Shotgun (Pending on map scenario), Explosives (Timed such as the M2 SLAM or Remote such as C4), Explosives Kit (Capable of disarming enemy explosives) and a little repair kit, knife.

Medic/Navy Corpsman - Unmodified M16 Rifle, First Aid Kit, Defibilators, Knife

Pathfinder/Recon or Spotter Class - M4A1 W/Silencer, Binoculars/SIMRAD (Is that the name?) Sidearm (.45), Smoke Grenades

I don't know if such units exist or not, but the purpose of the Pathfinder class was to basically assist the sniper class. Ammunition should be low, perhaps 3 mags for the M4A1 and 2 for the .45.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-02 21:04

I noticed the engie has no knife, does that mean he can us his wrench as his melee weapon?

SiN|ScarFace · Post by **SiN|ScarFace** » 2006-05-02 21:09

Deuce6 wrote:They're meant to kill everything. They are equipped with weapons to kill tanks. That's why Infantrymen go to javeline/tow gunnery school. That's what an 11Hotel is. An infantryman who sits atop a Humvee with a TOW to take out tanks.

My last line was ****. I was just trying to make the point that infantry learn that first, like thats default, then you get more tools/training to do other things.

[T]Terranova7 · Post by **[T]Terranova7** » 2006-05-02 21:09

You musta missed it, but hey I guess having the engy wrench a head or two could work.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2006-05-02 21:12

Sorry, i feel both the sharpshooter and recon are too similar and would not improve present gameplay. I am personly more for ceribuses idea on the previous page, but his also has problems.
Terranova - appears to have addressed target ID but no mention of GPMG and BOTH appear to have again ignored ammo bags.

Cerebus if you read this could you turn 1 page back a have a quick look at some Q's at the very bottom of page 2 - cheers

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-05-02 22:13

Top _Cat the great wrote:[R-PUB]Cerberus - i like it. couple of quesitons:
- where are the ammo bags
- 1 AT-4 or SMAW - which of these is disposable and if so, could 2 of a certain one be carried, or is 1 a definate?

No ammo bags. I gave the classes alot more ammo than they have in-game ATM. Riflemen aren't gonna go into combat with 150 rounds. You could get ammunition from HMMWVs, 5 ton trucks, and supply drops.

AT-4 is disposable. I think the SMAW can be reloaded, judging by the fact it can be loaded with either HEDP or HEAA rockets.

- HOW would pick up kits work, cos we have rubbish bases and they constanly chnage hands - bit complicated!?! - THE whole idea hinges on this and it seems quite risky, confusing (needs alot of attention and consideration)

One of each pickup kit would definitely spawn at the main base, for sure. Only downside to that is that it may encourage 'kit whoring.'

- What is point in unlockes, personaly i get no pleasure in them cos they do not refelct skill, any noob who spends enough time will can get them, with in 3 months every one will have one and it will almost be pointless and quite silly.

Just thought it would be a little nice to have an upgrade from the ironsights. Maybe the Aimpoint 68 I mentioned could just be an alternate to the ironsights (and not an unlock)

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2006-05-02 22:29

IT is all about balance. You could jsut make i a choice and as u righlty already stated give the SAW more ammo and atleast 2 grenades.
Either of these could be fitted with a scope:
- could be used to balance, scope good for more precise firing
- could result in uber weapon

Another way to balance these weapons is to make signifcant affect to movement, almost complete loss of sprinting with one. Takes alot lot longer to deploy (make stable and bring iron site up). GPMG could be similar to the Day of defeat version, this was pretty extreme in terms of recoil, movement and power but it was never over used and actually suited that type of gameplay very well.

I mentioned this in general but i will repeat it (not precise but get idea)
2 tpyes of anti tanks, keep it simple
1) - rifle + mabey scope, grenades and smoke, 1 disposable rocket (this could be 2 but then must remain purpose and balance with otehr!!!!)
2) - rifle, 1 relodable launcher with 3 or mabey 4 (cant decide) rockets

THis way those who want rifles get them and those who wnat a heavt AT class that can easilt take a MTB out are happy as well.

i was goign to have ammo bag but i like your idea of more ammo and no bags, it is far more reasistic that 4 mags as a medic = how stupid, doing most of the shooting anyway

sorry about underlining , an accident ,please no comment

[T]Terranova7 · Post by **[T]Terranova7** » 2006-05-02 22:30

Top _Cat the great wrote:Sorry, i feel both the sharpshooter and recon are too similar and would not improve present gameplay. I am personly more for ceribuses idea on the previous page, but his also has problems.
Terranova - appears to have addressed target ID but no mention of GPMG and BOTH appear to have again ignored ammo bags.

Cerebus if you read this could you turn 1 page back a have a quick look at some Q's at the very bottom of page 2 - cheers

I'm almost certain the General Purpose Machine Gun is British, assuming thats what it stands for.

Anyhow the idea behind the Sharpshooter class is to have it as an alternate to the standard assault class. Utilizing optics on their weapons (a nice replacemnt for the Spec Ops class). Where as the Recon class would be designed around forward observation. But then again perhaps we don't need the class, although I'm not sure what it could be replaced with.

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2006-05-02 22:34

K.Larsen wrote:The marksman would of course use the designated marksman weapon? The M14 DMS (Designated Marksman System), not an M16.

The designated marksmen in USMC rifle squads use the Squad Advanced Marksman Rifle, or SAM-R. It is an M16A4 fitted with a match-grade barrel, floating rail interface system and a variable power telescopic sight. The West Coast have made do with the M16A4 and ACOG combination for their SAM-R. The M14 DMR has made it down to rifle company and platoon level in some units, but most are with the Military Police SRTs, MSG Detachments, FAST Platoons, STA Platoons and other specialized units. It will probably be phased out eventually by the Mk-11 (a variant of the SR-25) because of the difficulty of maintenance.

The Marines won't be the only US force represented in PR.

K.Larsen wrote:You've talked to a lot of "anti-tank" infantry men then? I haven't seen 'em around somehow.

There are dedicated anti-armor sections/squads in all US light infantry units (Marine, Airborne/Air Assault, Light Infantry, Ranger). The Marines have a full-time MOS for Javelin and SMAW gunners; 0351- "Assaultman" or "Anti-Tank Assaultman." The weapons platoon of a Marine rifle company has an assault (SMAW) section of 13 men; a section leader and 6 SMAW teams which can be detached, two each, to the rifle platoons. These assaultmen also get trained in demolitions, mines and breaching. The Javelin section is found in the weapons company of the battalion.

US Army light infantry companies have a dedicated anti-tank section in their headquarters platoon. Airborne and Air Assault have a weapons squad in each rifle platoon, which includes two Javelin teams. These are 11B Infantrymen who have been assigned to those units and go through an additional qualification course to operate the Javelin. The Rangers have a similar organization to the Marines; their anti-armor section is in the weapons platoon of a rifle company, but they can alternate between the 84mm Carl Gustav M3 recoiless rifles and the Javelin, depending on METT.

In mechanized (Bradley) and Stryker units, at least one rifleman in each dismount squad is trained to be the designated Javelin gunner for that squad. When the need arises, he carries the Javelin CLU and one of the other riflemen acts as his assistant gunner. Additional rounds are carried by the rest of the squad or in the vehicle.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2006-05-02 22:35

always good to put all ideas dwon and then get the kicked about cos unless it happens we dont find the right one, take long time and we will get their.

The GPMG is a british thing but when i refer to it i am also refering to US version new M2.... (new one, not M60 but same calibre). Heavier than SAW, really an abolute beast not the crappy PKM in BF2 we need an absoulute grinder, killer, and for it to make a big sound and have some proper recoil but not over top cos of bi-pod.

P.S the above post semi supports my post that is 2 up. The repeated idea: 2 types, 1 heavy, 1 light, the question is whether the heavy has an M16 and does the light have 1 or 2 dumb fire rickets???1!!!!!?????

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-05-02 22:50

Top _Cat the great wrote:The GPMG is a british thing but when i refer to it i am also refering to US version new M2.... (new one, not M60 but same calibre). Heavier than SAW, really an abolute beast not the crappy PKM in BF2 we need an absoulute grinder, killer, and for it to make a big sound and have some proper recoil but not over top cos of bi-pod.

M2? That's a .50 cal. The "US version" of the GPMG that I think you may be referring to is the M240, which fires a 7.62x51 (and is indeed heavier than a SAW by 4-6 kg). And personally, I think the PKM would be quite a force to be reckoned with if it were implemented into Project Reality. Fires 50 more rounds per minute than the RPK-74 and fires 7.62mm rounds

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2006-05-02 23:11

'Top _Cat the great' wrote:[R-PUB]Cerberus - i like it. couple of quesitons:
- where are the ammo bags
- 1 AT-4 or SMAW - which of these is disposable and if so, could 2 of a certain one be carried, or is 1 a definate?

Because of its weight and size (almost 40 inches long and 15 lbs), generally only one M136 (AT-4) is carried in addition to the infantryman's primary weapon. This is one reason why improved versions of the 66mm M72 LAW have made a comeback; not as heavy and it's collapsible.

'[R-PUB wrote:Cerberus']AT-4 is disposable. I think the SMAW can be reloaded, judging by the fact it can be loaded with either HEDP or HEAA rockets.

The 83mm Mk-153 SMAW is indeed reusable. The same company manufactures the SMAW-D, which is a single use disposable 83mm SMAW HEDP round/launcher. It has recently been type-classified by the Army as the M141 Bunker Defeat Munition and can be seen in some of Deuce's photos from his tour in Iraq. The BDM is sometimes carried instead of the AT-4 in certain situations.

Terranova- "General Purpose Machinegun" refers to a classification of weapons, not just the L7/FN-MAG series.

It means a weapon that can be used as either a light machinegun (one operator; bipod) or medium machinegun (crew-served; tripod). The M60 is considered a GPMG (though from what I understand it was not very good at either the LMG or MMG role). The US classifies the M240B/G as a medium machinegun rather than a GPMG.

[T]Terranova7 · Post by **[T]Terranova7** » 2006-05-02 23:23

Yea, I remember seeing something by the intials of GPMG or something similar under the media gallery. Yeah, the M240B is a pretty deadly machine gun. The thing is, if the M249, RPK and QBZ configuration of the SAW is a little overpowered at the moment, I don't want to imagine having much heavier machine gunners walking around the map.

If anything the 7.62 machine guns should be made for stationary defences, mounted weapons on vehicles and/or pick-up kits.

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-05-02 23:54

Terranova wrote:I don't want to imagine having much heavier machine gunners walking around the map.

The M240G is issued at the platoon level, IIRC, (M249 is issued at the fireteam level), so hopefully they could make it a pickup kit (and that way it wouldn't be abused)

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-05-02 23:57

I think the FN MAG family are so varied (in my mind) the DEV's might want to do what you suggest.

Have one as a spawn weapon.

And a heavier config to pick up.

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2006-05-03 00:17

'[R-PUB wrote:Cerberus']The M240G is issued at the platoon level, IIRC, (M249 is issued at the fireteam level), so hopefully they could make it a pickup kit (and that way it wouldn't be abused)

That is correct, the M240s are organic to rifle platoons (Army) or are attached to the rifle platoons from the machinegun section in the company weapons platoon (Marines). And that is also how we would likely implement it and other MMG/GPMGs, as a pick-up kit. Granted, there would be factors that would make the LMGs/squad automatics more appealing, like more ammunition per belt or more magazines (the rounds weigh less) and varying accuracy (weight affects usable firing positions and how fast it can be brought to bear with accuracy).

six7 · Post by **six7** » 2006-05-03 00:50

'[R-PUB wrote:Cerberus']I think the anti-tank class (equipped with more advanced AT weapons such as the Javelin, Eryx, SRAW, etc) should be dealt away with on maps that don't have MBTs (main battle tanks).

As for the USMC classes, here's my idea

Grenadier/Anti-tank rifleman
M16A4
300 rounds
M203 GL/1 AT-4 or SMAW-D
12 HE grenades/2 M67 grenades
4 smoke grenades/0 smoke grenades
Ka-Bar knife

I like you calss ideas, but i wanted to make a few changes. The 12 grenades in deuce's picture were 40mm frags. He was also packing 2 40mm HEs.

I think there should be one pick-upable dedicated AT either like the current or armed with a javlin (whatever is easier on the Devs).

There should be a pick up sniper kit at the main base. For more urban maps, it could be an m-14 DMR, 2 m67s, 1 smoke, either m9 or p226, binocs, and kabar.

Larger maps could feature the m40 with kabar and p226 instead of an m-14.

A recon class could also be added which would comprise of a supressed m4, binocs, 2 m67s, p226 or m9, laser designator, and a kabar. They could be pathfinders and also act as spotters for snipers (thats why m-40 wont get binocs, to encourage teamwork). These kits would not be pick up, as they would be useful in other roles.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-03 15:56

OK, here's my shot at a full loadout based on Cerberus' plans and combining them with the existing layout. I threw in some alternative names, though most of them are pretty stupid. I really like this layout and I think it has the balance needed.

Special Ops / Recon - Good for surveillance, sneaky tactics and long range missions. Recon is a possibility too thnks to the Binocs.

M4A1 w/ 3x ACOG and supressor - 150 rounds
Sig P226 w/ Supressor - 45 rounds
Binoculars
C4 - 4 charges + detonator
Parachute
Flashbang Grenade - 2 grenades
Smoke Grenade - 2 grenades
HE Grenade* - 2 grenades
Ka-Bar knife*

Sniper / Marksman - Great for picking off enemy troops from a hidden position or firing from the rear of a squad. Not designed for close range action.

M24 - 40 rounds / SPR w/ Supressor - 120 rounds
Sig P226 w/ Supressor - 30 rounds
Binoculars
Smoke Grenade - 2 grenades
Ka-Bar knife
Guillie Suit

Assault / Rifleman - The average grunt packing a lot of firepower. A soldier's nightmare.

M16A4* with 2x ACOG - 300 rounds
M203 GL - 6 grenades
20mm smoke grenade* - 2 grenades
M67 Grenade* - 4 grenades
HE Grenade - 4 grenades
Smoke Grenade - 2 grenades
Ka-Bar knife
Body Armour

Support / Machine Gunner - Takes a back seat in covering troops and stocking them up with ammo. This guy could take out a whole team with one load.

M249 SAW - 200 rounds
M1911 - 30 rounds
M67 grenade - 2 grenades
Ammo Bag Type 1* - 2 bags
Ammo Bag Type 2* - 1 bag
Ka-Bar knife
Body Armour

Engineer / Pyrotechnician - Expert in all things 'boom'. Close range, a nightmare to troops, vehicles and anything else not indestructible.

M4A1 w/ Masterkey* - 120 rounds / 24 cartridges
AT mine - 2 mines
Satchel Charge* - 2 charges
C4 - 4 charges
"Magic" Wrench
Ka-Bar knife
Body Armour

Medic / Corpsman - A trooper's best friend, as long as he's on your side. A medic is more than able to take care of himself and his comrades, especially on those long range missions.

M16A2 - 150 rounds
Medical Kits* - 10 kits
Shock Paddle* - 10 charges
Smoke Grenade - 2 grenades
Ka-Bar knife

Anti-Tank / Heavy Rifleman - Though packing a rifle, this guy got his title of 'heavy' from the AT4 rockets slung on his back. Expert in any engagements involving armour, and a menace to troops too.

M4A1 - 150 rounds
M203 GL - 2 grenades
20mm smoke grenade - 2 grenades
M67 - 2 grenades
AT4 - 4 rockets
Binoculars
Ka-Bar Knife
Body Armour

***

HE Grenade - Less splash, more burn than a standard 'nade. Useless against vehicles.

Ka-Bar Knife - Yes, that's the proper name for the knife used by the USMC.

M16A4 - Note the 'A4' part. Auto and semi-auto firing modes. Yay!

M67 grenade - Don't worry, it's the grenade we all know and love with it's correct name.

20mm Smoke Grenade - This works just like a regular launched grenade would, only it's fired from a GL for added range. Delay is slightly greater than a standard smoke grenade (it's gonna take you longer to get to the smokescreen you just made).

Ammo Bag Type 1 - When a player picks up this ammo bag, all their bullet ammunition is replenished. Bags can be restocked at supply crates or light vehicles.

Ammo Bag Type 2 - When a player picks up this ammo bag, all their projectile type ammunition is replenished. Bag can be restocked at supply crates or heavy vehicles.

Masterkey - This is an underslung shotgun attachment for the M16/M4. Happy hunting!

Satchel Charge - Packs more punch than C4 except it runs on a timer. Timer can be adjusted just like firing mode with the current setting displayed on the HUD where firing mode is normally displayed. One of these babies can take down a tank, but the audible beep will alert nearby players (who or may not alert the driver).

Medical Kit - Same as always, except you can only heal a limited number of people. When that bar's depleted it'll start using your next kit. In the unlikely event you run out you can get more from a supply crate or any vehicle.

Shock Paddle - Every buzz you make takes away a charge. Can be resupplied from a supply crate or a vehicle. Try not to miss.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2006-05-03 17:01

i can see where you are coming from but i see many "flawS". The recon sounds the same as spec opps and it has been agreed that this is unrealistic generaly. It is possible to make a ok case for having him but the case again is larger.

I feel ammo bags are unrealistic and if both hunvess and vehicles provide ammo it is unrealitic. IT IS FAR MORE reaslitic to jsut give the all the classes around double the ammo. In reall life medics dont have 4 mags!!!

I dont liek the idea of having a full auto M16, it kepted things balanced. At present almost all will agree it is more accurate and thriple burst is almost full auto if used contiuously - no improvement to gameplay at all.

I like the idea of a underslung shot gun but this needs to be kepted balanced, a deadly M4 with decent rangeAND a close quarter nuke = again could be uber soldier.

You alos have avoided any choises, e.g SAW or 7.62 machine gun. this i belive will play a huge role in future PR games and not including it is a mistake.

For some crazy reason the anti armour man has 4 ROCKET AND A M203 = uber soldier and no arguing. This is jsut comeplety unbalanced however slow he is. At present most people are agreeded to a class with an m16 and mabey rockets, many alos belive that a heavy weapon should be implamented, this could come in 2 forms:
- a sole AT class with 4 ish rockets and a pistol or MP.
- a pick up heavy weapon like the javlin (not that heavy but quite bulky)