Project Reality Forums

i am sorry, but i seriously hope u were joking with ur last comment.

delay??? i beg your pardon??? not able to make fast direction changes??? WHAT???

have u PLAYED with a joystick? just out of curiousity...

you realize that a joystick controlled aircraft in the game has maneuverability far beyond keyboard and mouse can achieve simply because you can recover the aircraft much more easily than with keyboard after executing hard maneuvre. Try to do a sharp roll with keyboard and mouse to dodge a missile, and let's see how fast u can restabilize the craft without a joystick, assuming u don't slam into the ground or something solid before that.

I'm speaking of flying a helicopter not an aircraft. If im rolling to the right and suddenly i want to roll to the left i have to pull the joystick to the other side, what at least takes a half second. With the mouse i just have to move it in the other direction, what will cost me much less time.

And I'm aware, that the keyboard is not good, but i prefer the mouse to controll the pitch and the roll, because I get along better.

When flying an aircraft I aggree with you, that a joystick is even far better than the mouse, but as I remember this thread is originally about helicopters.

Id pick keyboard and mouse, over my joystick. Only thing its good for is uisng its throttle to set a baisic torque. Simply put, it lets me hover.

Hi! This is my first post.. only natural it should be in a Helicopter thread as I’m a dedicated helicopter pilot.. (simulators that is)
My biggest grudge with vBF2 is the helicopters.. I’ve been missing the LB like crazy and I hate the way the helicopters in vBF2 fly. Now I have yet to play the mod but would like to give some input anyways.
When BF2 was in the making I posted this idea to DICE without response.

To be quite honest I dare anyone to fly a more realistic flight sim like MSFS2004 on full realism with a mouse and keyboard.. it is not impossible to fly, but you’d be pretty lost trying to make a quick delivery hovering above a rooftop or wedging yourself down into a street.
In fact, it will take most people quite a few hours to learn how to hover “decently”, even when using a joystick, at full realism.

I see people in here asking for quicker response in the helicopters but still wanting them controllable using mouse/keyboard. This is not “owning up” to the realism intention of the mod. For a very manoeuvrable helicopter is also a quite unstable one, that would not be controllable using a mouse.

I would like to see, if it can be implemented, a way to set your realism level for helicopters (and aircraft?). This way people wanting to fly with mouse/keyboard can do so and people wanting to fly with joystick can too. Only difference, when you set realism low to fly with mouse, you also get a more stable (slow responding) helicopter.

This would enable helicopters that are exactly so manoeuvrable and instable as they are in “real life”. Because the way I see it, they can not be realistic and at the same time stable enough to be flown with mice. And I sure want to see a LB that behaves like in MSFS2004.

Off topic, as this is my first post, I love what I’ve seen so far, I am downloading and so looking forward to the full release. Seeing the comments on here I know I will like this mod a whole lot better than vBF2, that I’ve basically stopped playing.

Keep up the good work!!
and thanks..

Right now the helis act a lot like the VBF2 ones however they will be fixed as soon as the devs get time to work on the physics of them.

Why is a unstable helicopter not controllable with the mouse? I understand that it is maybe more difficult because a mouse is normally way more exact in any movement than a joystick..

but why it is not controllable.. i do net see this point

Because joysticks allow constant movement. To tilt back you just pull back and it'll keep spinning. With a mouse you need to keep dragging it back. That's the advantage with joysticks over mice. The joystick just makes flying so much easier, you can tilt left and right as well as up and down simultaneously, as well as rotation and it all feels so natural.

So you are not abled to keep a constant movement with your mouse? I nearly can, and it is really no problem to do a quick correcting-movment in the opposite direction with the mouse.. anyway i do not care what you use, if you can work with a joystick - fine I can't ^^ I am happy with my mouse, I tried a Cyborg Evo and even tried to fly the helicopter with a Saitek X52 ( which is REALLY sweet for airplaines ) but i can't get along with it..

I keep missing the possibillity of rapid direction changes, that i have with my mouse

my problem is: if you move the joystick to the left the helicopter will drift to the left... now. when you move the stick back into neutral position. the helicopter will still move in that direction... is this intended? Or what?
I never had this problem in SSW... plus they hat rudder and throttle support.
(which is... quite binary in BF2... gas... no gas...)

'[k wrote:MuffinMaster']my problem is: if you move the joystick to the left the helicopter will drift to the left... now. when you move the stick back into neutral position. the helicopter will still move in that direction... is this intended? Or what?
I never had this problem in SSW... plus they hat rudder and throttle support.
(which is... quite binary in BF2... gas... no gas...)

It is very much intended that way.. that’s how real helicopters behave..
I’m not going into the details but it works just like aircraft in a sense, if you make stick-input to role 30 deg. and then release stick, the plane won’t roll back will it.. due to the new angle the plane will start drifting.. this is basically what happens with helicopters..

And M.O.D
The only reason you CAN do that is because the flight model is unrealistic.. unless you’re claiming you can achieve this kind of control in a REAL flight-simulator with realism set high.. in that case you’re a “freak”..

And the reason for this to be changed is so that helicopters in game can fly realistically. They don’t today, and that’s a bummer because they are not nearly as agile as they would be if they did.. IMHO..

I want realistic, agile, helicopters. Don’t you..?

So you mean if the flight model is realistic the mouse is way to sensitive to give a input that would let the helicopter stay stable? I understand what you said, but i do not understand WHY the mouse steering is difficult with realistic flight models..

I do not want to say you are wrong, I simply want to understand why the input device you use has anything to do with the ability to steer a simulated Helicopter, or why it is easyer with a joystick

Well, the way the mouse works today is a movement to the side by say ”x” cm’s will produce an ”x” deg. steering input. To return the stick to its “neutral” position you have to move your mouse back to the exact same position.
When flying a very unstable helicopter it is necessary to do maybe 2-4 small inputs every second and they need to be “spot on”. On top of this you have to use rudder and torque very sm0othly to be able to counter all deviations in yaw and vertical direction, that needs to be analogue inputs if the model is precise.

It might not sound very difficult to control your mouse movements and hey, why not allow digital torque/rudder inputs..? OK, but if you try doing it for any prolonged time in a REAL simulator you’ll find out that it’s nearly impossible to do. (You need situational awareness simultaneously to not crash..) The only way to counter this in game, to allow for mouse/keyboard use, is to make the helicopters less agile..

I know this is not a popular subject, nerfing mouse-pilots, but on a brighter side it might encourage people to learn how to fly for real.. and if my idea can be implemented you could still fly with a mouse.. only you’d be flying much like today, and you’d therefore be at a disadvantage to people using sticks..

NOTE: the “nerfed” “mouse-flight-model” would not have to differ from what you have now.. as it is today flyable with mouse.. only the “stick-flight-model” would be more agile.. making the mouse one “relatively” nerfed.. this you might like..??

to have no mouse input i have just let the mouse rest, not bring it back to the original position.. but it is logical, that there are too many inputs to do, to perform smoothly on the keyboard, and a mouse has just not enough buttons

anyway i'll try to fly the littlebird in the MSFS2004 with the mouse an tell you if i can.. i can simply not believe it is easier to do this many small inputs with an clumsy joystick than with a mouse

i am having difficulty understanding your comment about the joystick difficulty.

i am assuming you have a joystick so you can see what i will say urself, (all i've said before have been about helicopter's control btw, including my previous post).

take a control of a gunship, since the gunship is more agile than the blackhawk, now roll the gunship to either side and pull up to execute a hard turn, and then tell me which one would be easier and faster to do, keyboard + mouse, or joystick. Next, try to recover from that position back to upright cruising, then tell me again how well you can do that with keyboard and mouse compared to joystick.

i've tried both, and i've seen ppl controlling it with keyboard and mouse plus ppl controlling it with joystick, and i myself find the joystick far more intuitive and allows for greater degree of maneuverability, this is also consistent with the other in game pilots i've seen. The mouse and keyboard pilots tend to be able to hover fine, but their ability to execute hard maneuvre comes nowhere to the degree that a joystick users exhibit.

If i try hard manouvres with a joystick i just feel like, that the movement of the joystick from the far right to the far left costs me way too much time. In addition to that i have a better "feeling" for the chopper with the mouse.

I tried all those movements both with joystick an mouse, and my manouvre with the joystick is slower and not as smooth as the one I do with my mouse.

I think I'm just used to using the mouse..

I use the directional keys, mainly because im to skint to buy a joystick lol. I used to play with a joystick and i will admit fully it was easy, but now ive used the keyboard and got good at it, i am not in such a rush to go buy one.

what i don't understand is that why is there any delay or longer time lag for going from far right to left? i really don't understand, i can slam the stick from far left to far right, pull up hard or dive down all with no perceivable delay in the input.

The mouse can emulate it with correct sensitivity, but what i find extremely hard with mouse is restabilizing the craft after doing a hard maneuvre. Correct me if i am wrong, but from the general populace of the in game pilots i've seen in my vBF2 servers here in aussie i noticed that the mouse and keyboard chopper pilots tend to be more reserved while the joystick users fly around like stuntman doing an airshow zipping so gawd damn low.

Btw, as to the matter wether that is actually a good thing for the copilot or not and if having a daredevil pilot is helpfull for the team or not is a different matter altogether ... (>^o^)>

i actually prefer the mouse, because it´s more exact for me than a joystick (and my joystick has only two buttons -___- ). but i disagree that "mouse-pilots" are not as good as "joystick-pilots", i saw several ppl prove the opposite (or more like can be equal).
also, if you have a good mouse, you will have enough buttons and if it is a really god mouse (like mine )you can switch between different sensivity settings through pushing a single button (i.e from 1600 dpi to 400 dpi or 800)

it really depends on what you are used to

dunkellic wrote:i actually prefer the mouse, because it´s more exact for me than a joystick (and my joystick has only two buttons -___- ). but i disagree that "mouse-pilots" are not as good as "joystick-pilots", i saw several ppl prove the opposite (or more like can be equal).
also, if you have a good mouse, you will have enough buttons and if it is a really god mouse (like mine )you can switch between different sensivity settings through pushing a single button (i.e from 1600 dpi to 400 dpi or 800)

Logitec G7?

Yeah i love my MX510.. i play at a very high sensitivity but with the mousepad it is also abled to do small corrections.

The delay with the joystick is, you have to slam the joystick in the other direction - which will cost you more time than just moving the mouse into the other direction. This is because on the first mm of movement with the mouse you already have a movement into the opposite direction, with the joystick you have to cross the zero-movement-point until you geht the movement.
I do not think that the difference is big, rather a quarter-second or so.

What I do not get is why the mouse should have a delay.. and has to emulate this disadvantage with high sensitivity.. with a low sensitivity you could still use a mouse (if you move fast enough.. you would still have to lift it and get it back on the mousepad) but with a low sensitivity joystick you would just be lost..

But anyway play with what you come along best I prefer joysticks for fighters and I even like them more for Helicopters because its more authentic to use a stick, but i am way better in controlling them with my mouse, so I'll stay with it