Attack helicopter suggestion, radar AA.

[Konfusion2113]

I was watching this show about the apache, and they say that they work with the friendly inf and tanks and radar as a network, to successfully engage their targets .

[Hunt3r]

An Apache IRL has a radar which helps to find and aquire targets.
But when activated it can be detected by AAs and give away its position.
So the helicopter approaches with stealth,makes a quick scan, aquire targets and fire.

Why not add something similar?
The attack helicopter can find and autolock targets (no need a radar, the "green box" method its fine) but when this feature is activated then the helicopter can be spoted by AA from greater distance than normal.

So the pilot is still depended from ground troops but only for enemy's position.
Flying without intel and searching targets will be a clear suicide.

Not very realistic in term of weapons but realistic enough in term of tactics.

I don't remember an RWR fitted to SHORAD equipment in general...

[Inca_Killa]

And Killa's simple solution:

1.Increase Hellfire engagement range
2.Make lazes able to be fired on from farther away, preferably out of engagement areas of said target

Why?

Because This method is simple, it requires teamwork (lazes) and effective communication or .9 radio usage (lol super hard for most of the PR community) and would also protect the helicopter much nicer, while still being engageable by realistic targets, like jets, other helicopters(for pr this is realistic), or targets near its position.

[Spearhead]

Well as far as I remember Jane's Longbow (Good old times) attack helicopter tactics involve terrain masking and nap-of-the-earth flying. I am not certain how helicopters operate in Iraq (I would guess that they face less SAM and AAA threats and no air-to-air threats at all). In a conventional conflict I'd assume that they should never act as the orbital bombardment platforms they have become.

I personally would like to see the maximum operational altitude for helicopters cut down drastically.


Speaking about the missiles: If there have not been any major changes to the AH-64 weapons systems in the last 10 or so years they would either need line-of-sight for their FLIR to use their laser-guided Hellfire missile or they would need to paint the target using the longbow radar. As far as I know the engine we can not allow the laser variant to use "lock on after launch" which would be the ideal method to engage targets designated by ground troops. But since we can place map markers targets in PR can still be engaged without exposing the helicopter very much.

[Burton]

As far as I know the engine we can not allow the laser variant to use "lock on after launch" which would be the ideal method to engage targets designated by ground troops..

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the UGBs dropped by fast air have the capability to find a target if dropped without seeing the laser target.
I'm sure something could be easily coded so that the missile launches flys in a straight line until it finds it's designated laser target, if it doesn't find a target within 3 seconds or so, it tracks up and detonates.

[Spearhead]

As far as I know the LGBs lock on without notifying the player but that's not my area of expertise. Don't want to derail the topic too much but someone who knows more about this topic might shed some light on this.

[Nemus]

I don't remember an RWR fitted to SHORAD equipment in general...

Do you know how the radar works?
By simple terms it emits energy and then spot objects from the reflection of this energy.
So it can detect energy even from enemy radars and with some calculations can find from where its emited. No need for RWR. The radar by itself is an RWR.

Anyway the idea was to make helicopters depended from ground troops not for the kill but for intel.
You know where is the enemy? You can kill it fast and safe.
You dont know? Then stay somewhere hidden because you are in danger.

[Inca_Killa]

As far as I know the LGBs lock on without notifying the player but that's not my area of expertise. Don't want to derail the topic too much but someone who knows more about this topic might shed some light on this.

"I got him locked!" It tells you when you lock on with bombs, how else are you supposed to know when to drop?? lol. Unless the spotter is my squad mate, I know its most likely not lazed correctly.

Also, increasing the laze distance might not be the most realistic thing we could do, but its the easiest imho for the devs and would help immensely. for the poor CAS atk helis. :/

[Alex6714]

"I got him locked!" It tells you when you lock on with bombs, how else are you supposed to know when to drop?? lol. Unless the spotter is my squad mate, I know its most likely not lazed correctly.

Bombs will lock on their own wherever you drop them almost, you can drop them from 2500m and they will find the target fine. You don´t have to lock before launch and you don´t have to hear the audio cue.

Also, increasing the laze distance might not be the most realistic thing we could do, but its the easiest imho for the devs and would help immensely. for the poor CAS atk helis. :/

How can that possibly help. They have to be too close as it is.

[Inca_Killa]

Er, what I meant is that atk helis should be able to lock onto targets from farther away, hopefully beyond visual range.

[Hunt3r]

As far as I know the LGBs lock on without notifying the player but that's not my area of expertise. Don't want to derail the topic too much but someone who knows more about this topic might shed some light on this.

Can we get someone who does missile/vehicle code to try and make it so that the missile travels in a straight path, and be able to lock onto any lase within it's FOV, and fly into it? I know that AIX has managed to make LOAL Hellfires. They are, surprisingly, flying somewhat realistic flight patterns (ie, they fly up, see the target, and dive into it.)

But that's not really the point here. I'm in favor of having the attack helicopters have a more effective missile system, because currently they really require too much to be just so in order to be effective. All squad leaders have to have perfect lases, and constantly updating and informing the pilot and gunner, when they really should just call it out, and the attack helo should be able to do the rest.

[Qaiex]

Yes that is what I mean.
Right now the attack helo has to do orbital bombardment because it is far too difficult to use when you're moving, and if you're not moving you're a flying glass bottle and just about anything and everything will shoot you down.

So by giving the gunner the ability to set several laze's himself, and removing the guided hellfires and just having lock-ons instead. You make it a lot easier to use the helicopter's weapon systems while still keeping the helicopter moving and removes many of the problems we have now due to the necessity to hover.

Adding the radar AA will encourage flying lower altitudes and will hopefully result in the attack helicopters giving infantry soldiers more CAS with the now unused 30mm cannons.
If necessary it might also be wise to make it a bit more difficult to shoot down attack helicopters, making them a more immediate threat, rather than just a nuisance, which is what they are now.

[Ls4SpeedPilot]

i like that suggestion..

[Inca_Killa]

Yes that is what I mean.
Right now the attack helo has to do orbital bombardment because it is far too difficult to use when you're moving, and if you're not moving you're a flying glass bottle and just about anything and everything will shoot you down.

So by giving the gunner the ability to set several laze's himself, and removing the guided hellfires and just having lock-ons instead. You make it a lot easier to use the helicopter's weapon systems while still keeping the helicopter moving and removes many of the problems we have now due to the necessity to hover.

Adding the radar AA will encourage flying lower altitudes and will hopefully result in the attack helicopters giving infantry soldiers more CAS with the now unused 30mm cannons.
If necessary it might also be wise to make it a bit more difficult to shoot down attack helicopters, making them a more immediate threat, rather than just a nuisance, which is what they are now.

Then helicopters can get destroyed by any and every enemy ground asset? Think about this. A Cas Helicopter wooshes by, guns blazing. What happens to him? Two tanks open fire. An apc fire his tow, misses, and switches to AP rounds. The Tow, being anti-everything, fires at him. The infantry squad on a nearby hill unloads on him for good measure, while their LAT kit takes aim. However, in the end for our poor CAS chopper, he got shot down by a measly .50 cal Humvee/technical/Rover weapon(better known for their anti-helicopter abilities, 50% or more effective than AA.) In the end, the CAS chopper is dead and we have the same problem. Until ground vehicles can't aim their cannons unrealistically, nap of the earth is simply suicide.

[PatrickLA_CA]

Moar stuff from CA in PR would be appreciated...

I totally agree and support this

[boilerrat]

I would think that could be emulated, the gunner uses secondary fire to put a "laze" on the map and repeats as many times as necessary and then when he fires hellfire missiles, the helicopter shoots as many missiles as there are lazes and they all hit their marks.

Yes, I believe attack gunners can already laze... but its almost impossible with how shaky the screen is.


Also I would like to have more radar things like CA has.

[Damian(>>>PL]

I love this idee.

I'm sick when i see apache flying high, one regular battlefield(kashan, silent eagle) it will not happend in RL. In RL chopers are flying beyond the radar to hide, its the most important for all the chopers(choper can hide all the time, jet can't).

Mabey DEVs can use UAV system from the BF2 if it's not harcoded.

PS. Chopers still can fly high, but then everyone know about them.
PS2. shooting to lazed targets from moving choper isn't difficult, but i agree lazeing from choper dont work like it schould. Mabey if DEVs make lasers to fly witch biger speed() i will work.

[PatrickLA_CA]

And Killa's simple solution:

1.Increase Hellfire engagement range
2.Make lazes able to be fired on from farther away, preferably out of engagement areas of said target

Why?

Because This method is simple, it requires teamwork (lazes) and effective communication or .9 radio usage (lol super hard for most of the PR community) and would also protect the helicopter much nicer, while still being engageable by realistic targets, like jets, other helicopters(for pr this is realistic), or targets near its position.

... And if possible increase pilot's or heli's visual range.

[PatrickLA_CA]

Yes, I believe attack gunners can already laze... but its almost impossible with how shaky the screen is.


Also I would like to have more radar things like CA has.

Shaky?

Maybe you chose the wrong pilot.

EDIT: They aren't shaky but they are unprecise, I mean they are put far away from where you put them even if your pilot is extra steady.

[badmojo420]

On theo other hand is so easy taqking out a attack chopepr I mean I can do it with my hands tied to my back using my nose o direct the AA be it man pad or mobile AA kit.

That's like saying sniping is easy. Sure, you're correct, pulling the trigger after pointing the weapon is very easy. Just like pulling the trigger of your M4, AT4, HAT, SAW or whatever weapon is easy once you get it on target.

The hard part, is getting that weapon into a position where it can be fired.

I understand the attack helicopters have their issues in PR. There's no denying that fact, but all this talk about the Anti-air being too overpowered is nonsense. Like has been said, everything is effective against helicopters in PR. Nerfing the AA or complaining about it being too effective is a waste of everyones time, and it's not the answer to fixing the helicopters problems.

Think about this. A Cas Helicopter wooshes by, guns blazing. What happens to him? Two tanks open fire. An apc fire his tow, misses, and switches to AP rounds. The Tow, being anti-everything, fires at him. The infantry squad on a nearby hill unloads on him for good measure, while their LAT kit takes aim. However, in the end for our poor CAS chopper, he got shot down by a measly .50 cal Humvee/technical/Rover weapon(better known for their anti-helicopter abilities, 50% or more effective than AA.)

So a CAS helicopter flys straight into the enemy team and all their vehicles, with no backup. And your surprised when it gets shot down? It's not a flying tank FFS, your CAS helicopter should not be on the front of the assault. The S in CAS stands for Support btw.

Also, the .50 cal machine gun has been used as an anti-air weapon for years. (In real life) Saying it's 50% better than anti-air missiles is a bit much, perhaps when the pilot knows how to use his flares. But, my point is that complaining about a .50 cal machine gun shooting down an aircraft, is like saying your pissed because you got killed by the insurgents SKS. They're all weapons designed to destroy human lives, don't underestimate the 50cal just because your in a fancy choppa.