Project Reality Forums

To be honest, if the argument for the removal of the missiles is because "it takes no skill", you might aswell remove them from AA vehicles too. And Firebases. The engine has a limit, it has to be a bit simplified and I would argue that there is some skill in using the AA missiles even if it is easier than guns but I still can't see how removing them would make any positive difference at all and in my opinion it would make it worse.

Alex6714 wrote:To be honest, if the argument for the removal of the missiles is because "it takes no skill", you might aswell remove them from AA vehicles too. And Firebases. The engine has a limit, it has to be a bit simplified and I would argue that there is some skill in using the AA missiles even if it is easier than guns but I still can't see how removing them would make any positive difference at all and in my opinion it would make it worse.

I don't think removing the AA missiles is the answer also. One solution would be to increase the flare count up to 60 from 30 for the attack helicopters and also increase the rate of fire/deployment for the flares. Right now it shoots 5 flares per button press, not concurrently, but in a quick sequence around the chopper. The pattern of dispersal is fine, but the ROF is too slow to defeat missiles since the helicopter is much slower than say a jet.

Instead, it should be changed to unlimited per button press, kind of like an automatic machine gun, so that all flares may be dumped in a matter of seconds in emergencies. I would say that when an enemy attack helicopter fires both missiles at you, that would be an emergency. The ROF should be fast enough that all flares may be dumped in a few seconds, but slow enough that pilots can fire a burst of 3 flares in normal situations or 1 at a time by tapping the button during ground attack runs.

In addition, even though the dispersal pattern is fine, the flare's speed of ejection may be too slow currently to distract missiles AWAY from the chopper because by the time the missiles get there, the flares may only be a few short feet away from the chopper. Therefore, this should be looked into and the flares must fly away from the chopper at a much faster speed to increase the distance of the countermeasures from the actual aircraft.

TLDR:

1) Increase flare count to 60
2) Increase firing rate of flares dramatically
3) Increase flare object's ejection speed away from aircraft

could a compromise be to increase the lock on time for helicopter bourne AA missiles?

Alex6714 wrote:and in my opinion it would make it worse.

How?

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Rudd wrote:could a compromise be to increase the lock on time for helicopter bourne AA missiles?

And what would this accomplish? People fire them without locks and they will hit almost every time without fail. The AA missiles in this game are bugged beyond belief, flares do NOTHING. You can setup with the best attack angle from a perfect distance on an unsuspecting enemy helicopter, and still lose because both your missiles missed with perfect locks and the enemy didn't even pop flares. And the enemy can win by twitching and firing without a lock when you are popping flares like a mad man. The handhelds are especially bad on maps like Kokan, quite a few H guys are reluctant to even fly when they know a Taliban player who knows to use the Stinger and fire without a lock, all you have to do is lead the target a tiny bit. The AA is a joke in this game. It would be simply better to give every helicopter the same level of armor and HP as the Huey if you are going to retain AA rockets, then the game would actually be enjoyable when flying attack helicopters but yet not too unbalanced.

Even if helicopters did not have AA, people with myself included, would still attempt to kill the enemy helicopters. It just wouldn't be quite as buggy with the AA rockets gone.

for handheld aa they should all have the quality of the strela. no need for different performance of the different models. the strela i believe isn't broken for whatever reason... or at least people dont fire it without hud lock hoping to kill aircraft.

perhaps the stinger should be reported in the bug section?

=HCM= Shwedor wrote:And what would this accomplish? People fire them without locks and they will hit almost every time without fail. The AA missiles in this game are bugged beyond belief, flares do NOTHING. You can setup with the best attack angle from a perfect distance on an unsuspecting enemy helicopter, and still lose because both your missiles missed with perfect locks and the enemy didn't even pop flares. And the enemy can win by twitching and firing without a lock when you are popping flares like a mad man. The handhelds are especially bad on maps like Kokan, quite a few H guys are reluctant to even fly when they know a Taliban player who knows to use the Stinger and fire without a lock, all you have to do is lead the target a tiny bit. The AA is a joke in this game. It would be simply better to give every helicopter the same level of armor and HP as the Huey if you are going to retain AA rockets, then the game would actually be enjoyable when flying attack helicopters but yet not too unbalanced.

Even if helicopters did not have AA, people with myself included, would still attempt to kill the enemy helicopters. It just wouldn't be quite as buggy with the AA rockets gone.

we're talking about AAMs, not AA, fucking hell. Secondly, to say flares do nothing is beyond retarded, do you even play this game? If flares are out, the missile will ALWAYS track the flare, and explode on it, so if youre flying slow youre near your flare and the missile will still detonate near you. Far be it from you to think that flying faster would save you, no it is the game's fault.

Okay, remove them, let the pilots hunt themselves, I'm bored to see that in every CAS video (I love 'em) when they find an enemy attack helicopter the first reaction should be RTB, then tell to an AA to try to take out the helicopter, then return to battle, but what they do? Start fucking using hydras, hellfires and 30mm to take out each other, then they start yelling 'YEA, you going down, you going down, you sucka, bit**".

The perfect CAS pilot should stay at a high altitude letting the gunner do the work, returning to base every time they spot enemy attack helicopter, but what I get when I play PR is a pilot moving up to about 2 kilometers of altitude then start going down and shooting hydras, hellfires and 30mm without a laser and without see the enemy because of the fucking smoke of the explosions.

Yes remove and see a war happening in the skies.

SShadowFox wrote:when they find an enemy attack helicopter the first reaction should be RTB, then tell to an AA to try to take out the helicopter, then return to battle, but what they do?

The perfect CAS pilot should stay at a high altitude letting the gunner do the work, returning to base every time they spot enemy attack helicopter, but what I get when I play PR is a pilot moving up to about 2 kilometers of altitude then start going down and shooting hydras, hellfires and 30mm without a laser and without see the enemy because of the fucking smoke of the explosions.

1. If you run away when you see enemy gunship then you just get a rocket to the ***.

2. "Perfect CAS pilot should stay at high altitude letting the gunner .." ... and get a TOW/HAT to the face

40mmrain wrote:we're talking about AAMs, not AA, fucking hell. Secondly, to say flares do nothing is beyond retarded, do you even play this game? If flares are out, the missile will ALWAYS track the flare, and explode on it, so if youre flying slow youre near your flare and the missile will still detonate near you. Far be it from you to think that flying faster would save you, no it is the game's fault.

Well, when the rocket gets multiple heat signatures then it goes to the closest one, which means that the rockets only work like you said when they are between you and the rocket.

<COULD AN ADMIN REMOVE THIS>?

Stemplus wrote:1. If you run away when you see enemy gunship then you just get a rocket to the ***.

2. "Perfect CAS pilot should stay at high altitude letting the gunner .." ... and get a TOW/HAT to the face.

AT HIGH ALTITUDE, let me say again, AT HIGH ALTITUDE, if you get hit by a HAT or TOW while in HIGH ALTITUDE you're a perfect noob.

I forgot to say that when I wrote 'RTB when see the enemy helicopter', only if he don't see you, otherwise you can fire the 2 missiles and RTB, you obviously isn't a perfect ultra noob to get hit by some hydras, can't you start diving and make turns?

Gotta prioritise...

Only an idiot would set it up the way it is. It is the most long lasting most irritating thing in PR and i hate the idiots that advocate the uber anal realism over the gameplay for this one. The gunship's setup are more anoying than the UAV spam, whats worse is, its built in intentionally, like somebody thought it would be a good idea to smash too gunships together every 20 minutes. Cant you see how dumb that is?

Heres the truth to those of you who think you know better...

People play the game for fun. Fun requires a good balance of gameplay. It is a game, not a milsim, the engine was never built to encorperate this much stick-up-***. The gunships in PR will NEVER be realistic. EVER, the view distance, the flight mechanics, the cockpit, the HUD, flying upside down, the way you can stand on the rotor blades when they are spinning. Its mostly all wrong anyway and trying to preserve the gunship's weaknesses in some frugal effort to avoid whores is so stupid and selfish and gutless. I mean get some balls. Make them fun, and if its really necessary balance them with Ground to air changes, thats the only way to do it right.

The obvious answer is very extremely obviously simple....

Get rid of the damn AA missiles or get rid of the gunships altogether so everybody can get on with their lives.

I mean how long is this argument going to continue? Seriously, its stupid.

edit: personally I think this is one of those things that deserves a democratic vote.

Psyko wrote:Gotta prioritise...

Only an idiot would set it up the way it is. It is the most long lasting most irritating thing in PR and i hate the idiots that advocate the uber anal realism over the gameplay for this one. The gunship's setup are more anoying than the UAV spam, whats worse is, its built in intentionally, like somebody thought it would be a good idea to smash too gunships together every 20 minutes. Cant you see how dumb that is?

Heres the truth to those of you who think you know better...

People play the game for fun. Fun requires a good balance of gameplay. It is a game, not a milsim, the engine was never built to encorperate this much stick-up-***. The gunships in PR will NEVER be realistic. EVER, the view distance, the flight mechanics, the cockpit, the HUD, flying upside down, the way you can stand on the rotor blades when they are spinning. Its mostly all wrong anyway and trying to preserve the gunship's weaknesses in some frugal effort to avoid whores is so stupid and selfish and gutless. I mean get some balls. Make them fun, and if its really necessary balance them with Ground to air changes, thats the only way to do it right.

The obvious answer is very extremely obviously simple....

Get rid of the damn AA missiles or get rid of the gunships altogether so everybody can get on with their lives.

I mean how long is this argument going to continue? Seriously, its stupid.

edit: personally I think this is one of those things that deserves a democratic vote.

Why would you even bother to write so much flame filled post? :< It contributes nothing to the discussion, just heats it. Let community talk and developers decide instead of pretending to be all knowing authority in the matter and insulting others. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mod is made by community, if anything you should appreciate that people are willing to spend their time discussing it, that just shows how dedicated and how important PR is to them.

Calling both devs and players idiots will achieve nothing.

About prioritizing, the best response I ever read how PR is when it comes to gameplay, was made in this thread by Rhino, it's worth reading and keeping in mind:
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... ost1794759

Cheers.

Kain888 wrote:Why would you even bother to write so much flame filled post? :< It contributes nothing to the discussion, just heats it. Let community talk and developers decide instead of pretending to be all knowing authority in the matter and insulting others. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mod is made by community, if anything you should appreciate that people are willing to spend their time discussing it, that just shows how dedicated and how important PR is to them.

Calling both devs and players idiots will achieve nothing.

About prioritizing, the best response I ever read how PR is when it comes to gameplay, was made in this thread by Rhino, it's worth reading and keeping in mind:
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... ost1794759

Cheers.

The reason why i would make such a post is because sometimes people need to be reminded of how angry these things make loyal followers. I'm a loyal follower, I help where I can, i give my input, but ultimatly im not important enough to be acknowledged.

Of course i appreciate people taking the time to discuss it. what bothers me is how all the discussion is ultimately ignored.

Im entitled to my opinion and how i emote to it. Basically all you have done is comment on how i spoke and not what i spoke about, which is another way of ignoring my opinion and not taking me seriously.

And Kain, please dont tell me what i should and should not say, either address what I said or dont bother. I dont need another mommy to tell me that im bold and have a bad temper.
I think by now I have earned the right to speak my mind on these forums.

Now i wont allow the discussion to derail over drama, I just want to know if anybody agrees with me or not.

edit: I forgot to say, Please dont take it too personally.

I agree, the reason I want the AA missiles gone is to make attack helicopter fights fun.

Stealthgato wrote:I agree, the reason I want the AA missiles gone is to make attack helicopter fights fun.

It is like saying "I want a tank survive 10 HAT rockets to make tank fights fun. It isn't fair that a tank dies after 3 shots because then it's about who sees who first, not about skill"

I agree that game is about having fun, but it doesen't mean it has to be super easy and fair. BTW I said "it's about who sees who first, not about skill" because people often use that sentence to prove they are right. EVERYTHING is about who sees who first. I.e. if you see enemy soldier before he sees you, you get the kill. If you are the first to see the enemy tank, you get it. Simple.

Psyko wrote: whats worse is, its built in intentionally, like somebody thought it would be a good idea to smash too gunships together every 20 minutes. Cant you see how dumb that is?

People play the game for fun. Fun requires a good balance of gameplay. It is a game, not a milsim, the engine was never built to encorperate this much stick-up-***. The gunships in PR will NEVER be realistic. EVER, the view distance, the flight mechanics, the cockpit, the HUD, flying upside down, the way you can stand on the rotor blades when they are spinning. Its mostly all wrong anyway and trying to preserve the gunship's weaknesses in some frugal effort to avoid whores is so stupid and selfish and gutless. I mean get some balls. Make them fun, and if its really necessary balance them with Ground to air changes, thats the only way to do it right.


Get rid of the damn AA missiles or get rid of the gunships altogether so everybody can get on with their lives.

It's not just about the gunships. Every vehicle in PR is "smashing every 20 minutes". That is not because of the engine, but because that is how everyone plays the game. There are lot's of ways to stay alive when doing actual CAS, without engaging enemy heli, some of them are SOOO stupid I don't even want to explain them because people may start using them. Also you shouldn't complain about the unrealistic parts of the game engine. It's not only the gunship. For example - tank. 1. IRL noone would take a tank into the area that has heavy AT lunchers spotted. 2. Tanks would never engame themself from 500m. 3. Tanks wouldn't survive multiple hits and constant RTB'ing. If you want to I can find many other minuses of the game engine.

If you don't like the gunships how they are, you don't have to fly them. It's not like everyone hates them and wants them changed. IMHO most of players use them well and have fun with them. If you don't like it them give it to someone else, believe me that person will have fun.

Stemplus wrote:It is like saying "I want a tank survive 10 HAT rockets to make tank fights fun. It isn't fair that a tank dies after 3 shots because then it's about who sees who first, not about skill"

Worst analogy ever.

Stemplus wrote:If you don't like the gunships how they are, you don't have to fly them. It's not like everyone hates them and wants them changed.

I hear you on the points of blaming the engine, i really do understand. Trust me I do.

But what your saying isnt fair. Lets use a metaphor for this. If i couldn't drink milk because I was allergic, and I wanted to drink tea with milk in it, I would endeavour to find a replacement milk so i wouldn't get sick. However If the only replacement was a gross disgusting milk that tasted like arse, it wouldnt be an improvement, In the end i would be better off drinking the tea without anything in it. Now imagine somebody coming up to me and saying, why should you bother drinking tea in the first place, its clearly not for you? I could have given a more serious comparison but tea with milk will do fine for this.

I think if we ask ourself the right question we might reach the best answer. That question might be "what is the gunship's main role in PR?" Is it to kill tanks and infantry, or is it to ro-sham-bo it's doppelganger?

And then accommodate that main role as best as we can.

Stemplus wrote:I agree that game is about having fun, but it doesen't mean it has to be super easy and fair. BTW I said "it's about who sees who first, not about skill" because people often use that sentence to prove they are right. EVERYTHING is about who sees who first. I.e. if you see enemy soldier before he sees you, you get the kill. If you are the first to see the enemy tank, you get it. Simple.

You couldn't be more wrong, this maybe is sometimes the case but definitely not the rule.

@Psyko

I know that choppers main role is killing tanks and infantry, but removing AA rockets won't stop helicopters from dogfighting. It's the same as with jets. Removing AA rockets wouldn't stop jets from dogfighting, because you still have the powerfull cannon and TV rockets in 2 seaters/ungeided rockets in bombers (A10/Frogfoot).

@Brainlaag

It's a common case, but not a rule in a chopper/jet either