Project Reality Forums

Stemplus wrote:@Psyko

I know that choppers main role is killing tanks and infantry, but removing AA rockets won't stop helicopters from dogfighting. It's the same as with jets. Removing AA rockets wouldn't stop jets from dogfighting, because you still have the powerfull cannon and TV rockets in 2 seaters/ungeided rockets in bombers (A10/Frogfoot).

Taking away AA rockets will make make one large change. Killing the opponant will require more skill on the gunner's part with aim and communication to the pilot.

in PR small changes have large wide spread effects because of the value of the assets at stake. The reason choppers ro-sham-bo is because of AA rockets not becuase of missiles or cannon. Missiles and cannon do indeed have a part to play but at least the fight will take a bit longer and the pilot wont be fixated on trying to get a lock when he should be bugging out.

Who sees who first is only a guaranteed kill in jets, but that's another thread. There are many situations in armour, and inf where i have been spotted but I used my position to get the kill.

Psyko wrote: I think if we ask ourself the right question we might reach the best answer. That question might be "what is the gunship's main role in PR?" Is it to kill tanks and infantry, or is it to ro-sham-bo it's doppelganger?

And then accommodate that main role as best as we can.

This quote is pretty much the reason behind my suggestion.Their job is to provide close air support against ground targets, not be flying AAVs. This in my opinion will improve gameplay because I have seen too many rounds that could have gone much better ruined by cas dueling it out at 2000 instead of helping the ground. As a pilot I already do runs and try to stay out of the air-air fight in attack choppers just because I like doing CAS more. Choppers of course would still fight without AA missles, but thats just the players which can't be changed. Removal of the AAs would change the way these fights happen. If they were two willing combatants, then they would probably fight like choppers do now, but without AAs. However, if one chopper didn't want to fight, because of the reduced killing speed of attack choppers vs other choppers they would have the option to run back to main or AA cover.

When you respond I know I have mentioned that last point before, and people always discredit it. They may say if you run you guarantee your won death, but thats just false, especially without AAs. Yes you are giving the chopper a free shot at you, and there are positions that this will mean you die(close proximity) but if you run when you are 400m away, it will take alot of gun and hydra fire or one lucky hellfire to take you out, and with some proper evading you can avoid the majority of this. With the job of AA moved off the chopper towards the ground troops, choppers can also work with AAVs instead of running the long distance back to main.

I have done this all before and it does work, even with AAs, the problem is that chopper fights rarely last longer than it takes for 2 missiles to be launched so you don't see this happen a lot.

chrisweb89 wrote:Who sees who first is only a guaranteed kill in jets, but that's another thread. There are many situations in armour, and inf where i have been spotted but I used my position to get the kill.




This quote is pretty much the reason behind my suggestion.Their job is to provide close air support against ground targets, not be flying AAVs. This in my opinion will improve gameplay because I have seen too many rounds that could have gone much better ruined by cas dueling it out at 2000 instead of helping the ground. As a pilot I already do runs and try to stay out of the air-air fight in attack choppers just because I like doing CAS more. Choppers of course would still fight without AA missles, but thats just the players which can't be changed. Removal of the AAs would change the way these fights happen. If they were two willing combatants, then they would probably fight like choppers do now, but without AAs. However, if one chopper didn't want to fight, because of the reduced killing speed of attack choppers vs other choppers they would have the option to run back to main or AA cover.

When you respond I know I have mentioned that last point before, and people always discredit it. They may say if you run you guarantee your won death, but thats just false, especially without AAs. Yes you are giving the chopper a free shot at you, and there are positions that this will mean you die(close proximity) but if you run when you are 400m away, it will take alot of gun and hydra fire or one lucky hellfire to take you out, and with some proper evading you can avoid the majority of this. With the job of AA moved off the chopper towards the ground troops, choppers can also work with AAVs instead of running the long distance back to main.

I have done this all before and it does work, even with AAs, the problem is that chopper fights rarely last longer than it takes for 2 missiles to be launched so you don't see this happen a lot.

That's true. I once was in a huey on Silent Eagle being chased by the Havok. I dodged ALL of his missiles and cannons from near their main all the way back to the German main. It was epic because it was skill based.

Nothing in the Huey is skillful, even if he hit you with both AA rockets you probably would have lived simply because the Huey is a tank. The Huey has the armor and HP that the attack helicopters SHOULD have in this game. My idea is to give attack helis the same armor level as trans helis instead of removing the AAM's. THAT would make the game much more fun and make helicopter fights much less dependent on just AA missiles and more so on the skill of your gunner.

And I still maintain my position that flares do little to nothing. AA missiles from attack helicopters will usually miss with a perfect lock in this game even if the enemy helicopter pops no flares, but yet they constantly hit when I free fire them with no lock. That goes for handheld and helicopter launched missiles. Most of the time in this game you will find yourself going directly at the enemy AA/Helicopter/etc where the flares have 0 effect no matter your speed, quite simply because your helicopter will ALWAYS be closer to the AA missile then your flares. In an attack heli fight you usually look directly at your opponent. And on most maps, such as Muttrah, the trans helis usually fly directly at the AA because that is how the map is set up. AA will not "always" track the flares, I've had plenty of times where I have fired with no lock and they explode near it because they ALWAYS explode when in proximity to a helicopter. Jet fights with AAM's is a completely different subject, the attack usually comes from the rear and the speeds are vastly different.

=HCM= Shwedor wrote:Nothing in the Huey is skillful, even if he hit you with both AA rockets you probably would have lived simply because the Huey is a tank. The Huey has the armor and HP that the attack helicopters SHOULD have in this game. My idea is to give attack helis the same armor level as trans helis instead of removing the AAM's. THAT would make the game much more fun and make helicopter fights much less dependent on just AA missiles and more so on the skill of your gunner.

And I still maintain my position that flares do little to nothing. AA missiles from attack helicopters will usually miss with a perfect lock in this game even if the enemy helicopter pops no flares, but yet they constantly hit when I free fire them with no lock. That goes for handheld and helicopter launched missiles. Most of the time in this game you will find yourself going directly at the enemy AA/Helicopter/etc where the flares have 0 effect no matter your speed, quite simply because your helicopter will ALWAYS be closer to the AA missile then your flares. In an attack heli fight you usually look directly at your opponent. And on most maps, such as Muttrah, the trans helis usually fly directly at the AA because that is how the map is set up. AA will not "always" track the flares, I've had plenty of times where I have fired with no lock and they explode near it because they ALWAYS explode when in proximity to a helicopter. Jet fights with AAM's is a completely different subject, the attack usually comes from the rear and the speeds are vastly different.

I wouldn't brag about dodge AA. Lol what's wrong with you. Read chris's post. It's about hellfires and cannons.

=HCM= Shwedor wrote:give attack helis the same armor level as trans helis instead of removing the AAM's. THAT would make the game much more fun and make helicopter fights much less dependent on just AA missiles and more so on the skill of your gunner.

and turn all attack helos into flying death machines you have to hat/tank to kill? no way.

+1 to this idea, with so much riding on cas performance in a round i dont think it should all boil down to an almost un-dodgeable 1 shot kill.

FLAP_BRBGOING2MOON wrote:and turn all attack helos into flying death machines you have to hat/tank to kill? no way.

+1 to this idea, with so much riding on cas performance in a round i dont think it should all boil down to an almost un-dodgeable 1 shot kill.

The Huey can be killed by something like a Tunguska with dual 30mm, Avenger with .50 cal M3P, or the Chinese AAV with quad 25mm guns. And seeing as there are currently no armored attack helicopters on insurgency maps, the heavily armored attack helicopters would still be able to die to the enemy faction's AA. I hardly see Attack Helicopters being OP against mobile ground based AA. On the other hand, they SHOULD be somewhat durable against something like a single Strela handheld, it should take 2 Strela/Stinger hits to kill an armored attack helicopter imo. And if they were to ever add something like an Apache to an insurgency map, they would probably give the insurgents something like a ZPU-2/4 technical to deal with it and SA-7's.

The un-dodgeable 1 shot kill for helicopters should be applicable to ground based as well as air mobile opponents.

@Chrisweb

I am sorry to say this, but if you die every time the enemy jet spots you then you are not a good pilot.


Back to topic, as I said before, it is not the heli's fault that pilot's dogfight. I just get a feeling that noone played BF2. Back then you didn't have AAs in helis and you still dogfighted like crazy. Noone focused on taking out ground targets.

Stemplus wrote: Back to topic, as I said before, it is not the heli's fault that pilot's dogfight.

Its not the king's fault that he is the main target in chess. Its not the football's fault that he gets the shit kicked out of him for 90+ minutes.

Its the rules of the game and they are defined by the developers. You think I'm wrong? then prove it, I really need to know how you rationalize this.

And enough about the HUEYs they arent part of this

Choppers have always duked it out air-2-air, since vBF2 and right the way through every PR release. Its become some kind of honor battle. An even test. The right of passage. The final showdown. A territorial claim. Self preservation.

What makes you think they wont revert to the swan-lake 1v1, where they just spin around like ballet until someone gets a lucky hit? But skill? Hardly. I prefer the way it is now, as choppers still battle but it resembles a ranged engagement as opposed to a ridiculous spectacle of putting out as many types of munitions as quick as possible.


...mongol...

Another idea I liked that I wanted put on all AA was that you had to hold down click for at least 2 seconds before the missile fired; that would prevent all this 'fire and hope' lock on stuff people are complaining about

[R-MOD]Mongolian_dude wrote:Choppers have always duked it out air-2-air, since vBF2 and right the way through every PR release. Its become some kind of honor battle. An even test. The right of passage. The final showdown. A territorial claim. Self preservation.

What makes you think they wont revert to the swan-lake 1v1, where they just spin around like ballet until someone gets a lucky hit? But skill? Hardly. I prefer the way it is now, as choppers still battle but it resembles a ranged engagement as opposed to a ridiculous spectacle of putting out as many types of munitions as quick as possible.


...mongol...

This.


@Rudd

Wouldn't that be hardcoded?

[R-MOD]Mongolian_dude wrote:Choppers have always duked it out air-2-air, since vBF2 and right the way through every PR release. Its become some kind of honor battle. An even test. The right of passage. The final showdown. A territorial claim. Self preservation.

What makes you think they wont revert to the swan-lake 1v1, where they just spin around like ballet until someone gets a lucky hit? But skill? Hardly. I prefer the way it is now, as choppers still battle but it resembles a ranged engagement as opposed to a ridiculous spectacle of putting out as many types of munitions as quick as possible.


...mongol...

Perhaps you didn't see very skilled people on those "ridiculous spectacles" (I actually think they're quite fun to watch and participate in when they very rarely occur - the 3 or 4 times I've had them were more fun than all the countless kills with the AA missiles combined), and I would much rather have those than "wait for tone>press button>effortless kill". Such a thing is OK for AA emplacements as it is their single purpose and ground assets would be pretty much helpless without this, but for attack helicopters on even terms it just makes gameplay shit imo.

If people don't want/have what it takes to dogfight with another helicopter without AA missiles, coordinate with your teams AA emplacements/mobile AA/MANPADS and lure the enemy into it.

Stemplus wrote: @Rudd

Wouldn't that be hardcoded?

nope, combined arms did it

Stealthgato wrote:
If people don't want/have what it takes to dogfight with another helicopter without AA missiles, coordinate with your teams AA emplacements/mobile AA/MANPADS and lure the enemy into it.

this is the best way to kill a friendly bird, everytime.

Exactly, I am just tired of this scenario:

<Stemplus gets into his jet>

[Team] Stemplus: Please, don't use the AA when friendly aircraft is in the same direction as your target!

<Ub3rPr0 jumps into AAV>

[Team]Ub3rPr0: Don't worry, I know what I'm doing

<30 minutes later>

[Team]Stemplus: Frogfoot down! Hold on... there is a MiG-29 behind me!

<Ub3rPr0 scans the sky and spots the MiG that is chasing the F16>

[Team]Ub3rPr0: Don't worry, I see him

[Team]Stemplus: No, don't shoot!!!!!!1111!!

Stemplus: "Hold Fire! Hold Fire!"

Ub3rPr0 [Teamkills] Stemplus

[Team]Stemplus: ...

Yea, like said before, the missile will fly to the closest heat signature...

AA traps are possible, and don't always end in TKs, they do if the vehicles are close together, or if there is a friendly between the target and AA. I have tried it with an apache and avenger in the same squad and we used each other for protection, along with the avenger for rides for the spotter, and with some comms we didn't TK each other believe it or not.

The rare time I do get in a fight without AA missiles if the other chopper starts doing circles I just sit back and gain altitude letting my gunner do the work. Its so much better than circling waiting to accidently ram them or get a lucky hydra or two.

Short answer: no.

Long answer: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Ground based AA is absolutely terrible in this game, usually I use the AAVs for their OMGFAST HMG or revolver/autocannons.

If we got some sort of early warning radar, AAVs would be massively useful. Even if it was just being able to see heat signatures from 2km away and being unable to lock until 1-.8 km away, that would be the only circumstance under which I would consider it to be acceptable for attack helos to lose their AA missiles.

Rudd wrote:nope, combined arms did it

It was actually half a second, but yeah.

And why sweat the aircraft in BF2 when the ones in BF3 have unlimited view distance, selectable payloads, and more options than one could imagine on BF2?