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The problem is indeed that too many people are buying SMs soley for the purpose of a reserved slot, even if they're not at all interested in the TG community. I've noticed a large increase in SMs who don't even bother posting an introduction in the TG forums yet do a lot of posting in these forums. TG has simply become the place where the cool kids play (this is not necessarily a negative thing). I even witnessed an SM blatantly challenge a basic TG rule ingame earlier today. However, it is the most balanced system and is a necessary evil. Upping the price is turns it into more of a rich vs poor issue and only encourages the 'pay only for the slot' idea... which is really not the type of thinking TG is looking for (as far as I know).

I'm kind of one of does, except I made a couple of posts, I follow the rules and I usually try to join the password nights and scrims.

But I'm really not part of the TG community if you consider being active on the forum a must for that. But TG is almost the only server I play on since its the only one I ALWAYS have a good game on. That's why I'm SM.

Silly_Savage wrote: I don't think that's the correct path to go down, ol' champ.

I find the players are what draw me to server, not Tactical Gamer itself. No hostile intent intended, I just prefer to play with the regulars I know, rather than with a bunch of randoms. The fact that they play on Tactical Gamer is what pushed me into becoming a supporting member.

I too play solely on TG for its players. However, I have found there has been a rather large influx of relatively new or unknown players who seem to have purchased supporting membership and therefore reserved slots. The ensuing result is that I find many of the regulars, including myself, are being removed merely minutes in. Waiting times to enter the server have now begun to greatly outlast Playing times in-server.

google wrote:The problem is indeed that too many people are buying SMs soley for the purpose of a reserved slot, even if they're not at all interested in the TG community. I've noticed a large increase in SMs who don't even bother posting an introduction in the TG forums yet do a lot of posting in these forums. TG has simply become the place where the cool kids play (this is not necessarily a negative thing). I even witnessed an SM blatantly challenge a basic TG rule ingame earlier today. However, it is the most balanced system and is a necessary evil. Upping the price is turns it into more of a rich vs poor issue and only encourages the 'pay only for the slot' idea... which is really not the type of thinking TG is looking for (as far as I know).

Yes, I too agree that the Sm system should remain, yet the financial premises behind it should change, where the price of a supporting membership would reflect the demand for one:

The Issue

Supporting Membership can be described as a De-Merit Good, where others (effectively, anyone who has the desire to play on TG at any given time, regular or new) directly or indirectly suffer from an SM being purchased and used. The benefits to the SM far, in fact almost infinitely, outweigh the benefits for the rest of the players; and the cost to the rest of the players far outweigh the cost to the individual.
But SMs need to exist too keep the server running, so they must stay.

There are too many SMs, if you observe the problems caused:

-Some supporting members cannot connect-at-will, as are there simply no non-SMs left to remove during peak times/special events.
-non supporting members cannot enjoy playing on the server, as playing times become vastly limited, fragmented, sporadic and brief. Under those conditions, there is simply no incentive to play as a non-supporting member.
-All players will suffer from 'natural stacking'. This occours because, as one team will quite likely have more SMs than the other(communities, such as regulars and in-house squads natrually like to play together), the lesser-SM heavy team will suffer from lack of entact command structure; loss and abandonment of assets in the field, as crews disapear; higher ticke-loss, due to -1 ticket for kicks and loss of assets; inconsistent force presence, as players are constantly disappearing and being replaced by those that now have to spawn at an FB or Main.
-Non-SMs actually become a liability too their team, casusing the problems above.
-SMs become a natural advantage, as they lack those negatives above.
-Raging players raging and causing mumble/teamspeak traffic
-The inability to carry-out action plans, as those with set tasks in mind are no longer on the server, replaced by those with little-no knowledge of the plan.

The Overview

So with the recent influx of SMs, there is a larger proportion of "Rich" players, who can play whenever they want, at the expense of everyone else. Now only those with the power to purchase can play. SM is being provided at the wrong price. The result is, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

Solutions?

Naturally, a government (you could describe those in charge of TG as the 'TG government', who decide its laws) see this would this is a bad thing and act against it, with tools such as prohibition (getting rid of SMs means server failz, so is out of the question) or taxation (increasing the cost would naturally reduce consumption).

Da Maff

I found and approximated that it would cost around $50-65 for running a minmum spec BF2(PR) server; and that it would cost $80-110 for running a maximum spec BF2(pr) server(including additions such as a full 64 player slot, 100mumble slots with an US-east coast server, montly)

Say a server had 40 SMs paying private membership costs at $8.75 (TG must have over 62 SMs, as there are multiple occasions where SMs could not connect, as there were no more non-SMs left to kick). Do the math and that comes out at $350 a month (This would mean that the Server makes a net profit of around $4200 per-annum from Supporting Memberships), more than enough to run a server and a training, with an additional $35 for other costs, at a combined cost of $145 (A yearly cost of $1740) server twice over.
TG can afford to shed some of its profits (thought its not impossible for TG to make a further monetary gain) from increasing the SM price.


I advise people to browse basic economic theory on things such as De-merit goods and the likes.
Thats my $8.75 feedback on how TG might be able to improve its server quality.



...mongol...

good post mongol, sums up my thoughts as well.

I currently not playing on TG because of this SM script.

[R-DEV]fuzzhead wrote:I currently not playing on TG because of this SM script.

LooK! Fuzz is losing his grammatical skills due to the fact he can't play on TG! Why are you doing this?!

The current problem with TG is that the huge influx of SMs has turned the server from "the place where the cool kids go to", as google said, to an exclusive VIP club. TG's never experienced lack of population. Even prior to the SM increase or the .9 release, players would still be competing with others and the autodeploy system for long periods of time to get in, which usually lasted not much longer than a round or two.

But prior there was at least a chance of getting in, and when one did, they usually had the assurance of completing one round before possibly being kicked and having to reiterate the joining cue again. Now, it's exactly as mongol said, it's a "rich vs poor" competition, not necessary by monetary nature, but also by inclanation to pay for something that is "free" (the mod and the ability to join any other server). It's much more than dissatisfying to think that one has to "pay" in order to play a free game with good tactics and teamwork, or with their mates who have payed for SM. I personally know TG's made more than 80$ this month alone from people I personally know.

An extra server is definitely within even anecdotal conservative estamites on profit, and the population has always been high enough to support, far more so now even with 0.9, but it was still competitive in the lowest days of 0.87. However, TG runs the risk of loosing many players to other servers/communities by not buying in and increasing their population limits.

I play and have played on TG because of the people, yet I find I'm becoming far more frustrated with it nowadays to even consider going there.

Mongol, your logic is skewed because you are not taking into account bandwidth usage. Do you have any idea how many terrabytes of data the TG PR server uses in an average month? The expense isn't in the server, it's in the bandwidth. The supporting memberships don't just pay for the PR server, they go into one big bucket that helps to pay for every server that TG hosts titles on, all of the bandwidth consumed by the community and licensing fees (where appropriate). The actual costs are ridiculously high.

Good post, mongol.
Personally i don't think raising the fee is the best solution, but i do think there is something principally wrong with the SM-effect, and the problem keeps growing more fundamental with time.

Looking at this issue and the popularity of the server itself - isn't it time to start a second TG server maybe?

Another solution to the overpopulation problem could be a Mumble requirment rule. It would serve as a "regulator" for the server population and also increase teamwork to epic levels.

google wrote:I even witnessed an SM blatantly challenge a basic TG rule ingame earlier today.

That would be me then. I wasn't going to bring it up but seeing as you mentioned it

Firstly I would say that I was not challenging the rule, I was challenging the CO's judgement and orders. I found the tactic that he deployed particularly disagreeable in the circumstances of the situation and my opinion was inflamed by the fact that due to the rule in question I had to follow or face a kick from my favourite server that I have payed for a place in. My opinion was further substantiated when falling back as ordered in the truck that had been supplied by the CO we were almost killed by an enemy LAV and subsequently blown to pieces by an emplaced AT.

The CO mentioned ticket conservation, but it was bye bye nine tickets when we were killed following his orders. In re-deploying to a new position we lost more tickets as a team than we would have done simply staying in place when we were not even behind anyway.

Now I think i've explained my reasons for disagreeing with the COs orders but as stated what I do not like is that on TG said orders must be followed explicitly at all times or you will get kicked. I feel that this rule has been misinterpreted, as below:

11. Orders

All players are required to follow orders. Squad Leaders are required to follow reasonable orders from their Commander, and all players must follow Squad Leader orders.

The key word im looking at is reasonable. I did not find the CO's orders reasonable and therefore by the letter of the law I have every right to at the very least disagree and make my feelings known. What spoilt the situation was that I was simply told to shut up and get on with it, not even entering the possibility of discussing the move as would have been easy to do given the multiple comms systems available.

In the subsequent round one of my clanmates went CO and was promptly ignored by the |TG| tagged squad that had made such a fuss about following CO orders in the previous round. Hypocrisy and double standards barely covers it.

Now why you brought up that point during a discussion about supporting memberships is beyond me, but I've made my point. Furthermore to the discussion:

google wrote:The problem is indeed that too many people are buying SMs soley for the purpose of a reserved slot, even if they're not at all interested in the TG community. I've noticed a large increase in SMs who don't even bother posting an introduction in the TG forums yet do a lot of posting in these forums.

I fail to see how paying for and playing on the server does not make you a member of the community, regardless of the size of your postcount on the TG forums. There are a vast multitude of people who play PR in general yet never visit these forums, but would you say they are any less a part of the community than either of us? This is like saying that the person who posts 10 times a day but plays 1 hour a week is more a member of the community than the guy who posts once a week but spends every day playing for 2-3 hours a day. That logic is fatally skewed.

For the record, I did post a brief introduction on the TG forums when I purchased my SM I simply have not found any threads there that I feel like contributing to.

Jigsaw is correct.

We have many members of the TG community that neither post on the forums nor have a supporting membership. They are no more or no less a member of the TG community than myself, Google, Cougar or any other player that most everyone is familiar with. We don't use post counts, forum membership nor supporting membership as a standard for determining who is and is not a member of the community.

Secondly, the supporting membership system is what it is. TG is an open community, not a clan. As such, people are freely allowed to wear |TG| tags in front of their names without registering or requesting permission to do so. Hell, I've seen a lot of people just throw them on before they join our server that I've never, ever seen on the server on our forums before. The same principle applies to the supporting membership: there aren't any restrictions as to who can get one and who cannot. Right? Wrong? Depends on your perspective I guess. As an open community, it makes perfect sense that it should work this way. However, I see the other side of it as well, with those that just want to guarantee getting on the server whenever they want and not be kicked during a round also buying the SM without any regard to the community and what it represents.

So here we are. Again. A lot of people I like and enjoy playing with who cannot join the server and at this point aren't interested in returning. I wish we could come up with a workable solution, but as of now it doesn't look like it is anywhere near the horizon. Adding a second PR server will not happen. It has been discussed before and the fact that it will fracture the community continues to be the main reason why it will not happen. Fracture the community? Yeah. One server with all the SMs everyone wants to play on, one without. What would be different about that than what we have now, except the non-sms will be playing on a server called "TG" instead of one called "RT" or wherever everyone plays now when they're not on TG? There's no difference. It's the people that everyone seems to want to play with, not the machine the game is running on.

I'll do this: I will bring up raising the SM fees to the server owners and see what their feedback is. I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be, but at least they will have heard the feedback from some of the community.

Hrm, I feel my post got the wrong message across. Yes, every member who plays actively on TG is certainly part of the open community and should not be restricted in any way compared to other members. However, the current issue that pisses everyone off is that there are too many Supporting Members and not enough server slots. As getting a second server is out of the question, the question becomes how to keep reserved slots at a reasonable level. After all, that is what everyone is asking for/complaining about. Thus, as harsh and elitist as it may sound, who should be kept on the server? Now, the other alternative is to say screw it, just pay the fee if you really want to play so badly. And, as I stated in my previous post, that is what really is the fairest and most balanced solution. Thus, I support it.

Regarding the rule issue, I will post the following and then cease discussing it as I'm no admin and really don't have that much say. However, during that Muttrah round, we were struggling to effectively hold/reinforce North City as the MEC. Thus, the CO ordered a team-wide retreat to South City (presumably in order to reorganize defenses and pursue an inter-squad defense). I fail to see how this order is unreasonable. Yes, you may lose some men in doing so, heck, the squad I was in basically died doing so. Is it all ways about winning, what's wrong with maybe trying something new and interesting?

Jigsaw wrote:In the subsequent round one of my clanmates went CO and was promptly ignored by the |TG| tagged squad that had made such a fuss about following CO orders in the previous round. Hypocrisy and double standards barely covers it.

I wasn't there for that round so I don't have much to say... Though obviously unnaceptable and should be treated in its own respect. I also feel that this seems to be part of the problem I originally mentioned. There seems to be a rather sad, yet prevailing alienation between groups of players... Anyway, I'll shut my trap now as I'm only one guy and really don't have that much say in these matters.

The SM thing, here is my thought on it, but that is only an idea form my part. You could set the numbers of reserved slots to 4, and kick no one. This would mean that if you are on the server you can stay there as long a you want. This will make people help seed the server (not that you have a problem with filling it, and new slots go only to supporting members. And maybe reduce the time before afk kick to 15 min and it might work. This would also be very fair to those without paying membership, you will then not get in when it's full, but the rest of the time you can. SMs could risk not getting in, but if the average time someone plays is 4 hours, you will then have one disconnect on average every 4th minute, (remember the slot will not get filled by any other then SM. So getting in should not be that hard (for SMs), since you are almost guaranteed that next slot.

What I came here to say was just to congratulate you on running a so good and successful server for such a long time. Always well admined, great teamwork and you can always find a good game there. Glad to see that the amount of mumble users are increasing on TG. Good luck and keep up the good work.

Before 0.9 was released I probably only played PR about 2-3 times a week max. I knew that once the new build was out, I would want to play more often like most people. I have many friends who mostly want to play on TG and even in the past without a swelling number of SM's I'd occasionally struggle to join TG. The fact was that I didn't want to get kicked whilst playing with my friends, so I paid for a slot. It cost about as much as a pack of smokes, so I didn't manage to gain a slot because I'm 'rich'.

google wrote:Now, the other alternative is to say screw it, just pay the fee if you really want to play so badly.

That's exactly what I did. I've been on several other servers over the last week but I was so tired of being kicked, I just paid for it. Had I not payed for SM, I wouldn't even bother trying to play on the server after the release of 0.9

It kinda goes against my usual feelings on the subject, as McNub pointed out, PR is a free game, yadda yadda, but the slot was so cheap, I thought.. "Why not?" A couple friends of mine that kinda moan about not being able to play on TG have gaming rigs that're twice as expensive as mine, so I don't really feel sorry for people who claim they can't afford it. This will all settle down over the next month, there are plenty of other decent servers out there. I've not payed for a slot due to TG being a favorite server, I just don't wish to be kicked whilst playing on a server after joining my friends and I don't feel that I have to visit the TG forums and contribute with posts to earn my slot.

As far as the following commander rule goes... Any decent commander will listen to the advice and situation reports given by SL's. A decent SL would not blindly follow any order given by a commander given the current situation.

d1sp0sabl3H3r0 wrote:Mongol, your logic is skewed because you are not taking into account bandwidth usage.

Thats what I was hoping to hear. Otherwise I was about to send you PM, about how to become your business partner and get in on the net revenue of $4200 that you guys pull in from just 40SMs per annum, alone
Like I PMed you before, im all speculation and 2nd guessing and I dont really have a clue what kind of costs TG runs into and where else the money needs to be applied.

But you know I think TG is the 'bomb-dizzle' and that I feel the SMship should stay for the better; it's just I think there is room for TG to improve. It is the feedback thread after all.

I know haven't explained it much, but depending on how potential purchasers view a TG SMship, TG might be able to increase profit from raising the price, while having a shot at improving server quality. I just get the feeling that TG isn't allocating the SMs at the best possible price (which isn't simply a low price).

I'll probably post more on that soon enough.


...mongol...

While i am also a fan of TG and I played on it regularly before UKWF got a server one thing i notice on these forums is that when any new player asks where is good to play? or where to get good teamwork? the answer always seems to be "play on TG or RT or T&T. Now I know that respectively those 3 servers offer good games, but there are also other servers that are very good as well and maybe this adds to the problem, as it seems from what I've read that too many players want to play on too few servers.

It would be nice to see some of the regular posters on this forum to maybe encourage people to play on other servers, Heros,10th, whatever. I think this really encourages community rather than creating little cliques of players who all want to play on the "named" servers.

You know I'm not into blatant self promotion unlike some people and I also know that on my clan server we have some very good games with some very good players, it just seems that the hardcore of posters here only want to mention 2 or 3 servers to play on when in reality there are many, and as a community surely we should be trying to intermingle more as this can only breed harmony and friendships which is a benefit to all.

As far as the SMs go i'ts down to TG to decide what's best for them. As far as the players are concerned there really are more options than 1 or 2 servers to choose from in order to get a good game........ Just my 10 cents worth

Himalde wrote:You could set the numbers of reserved slots to 4, and kick no one. [etc]

This! Is exactly what i think is the best solution. Again just 'a thought.'
Suggested it once in the past.
Very fair to non-SM, and still incentive to "pay for slot."

*edited*

The Question I have is:

Lets say hypothetically that D1spo came back and posts on the TG PR forums and within this forum that the SM price for the PR server (or all servers) was going to be raised significantly.

Would those who currently cannot get into the TG PR server due to not being a SM donate money towards being a SM? If yes is a answer, then why not donate money to be a SM now? If no is the answer then why ask for the SM fees to be raised in the first place?


In regards to the TG PR server as it is now:

"Course, I could get a hell of a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking my head up a bull's ***, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it."

I understand financially that for some it isn't feasible, or that the amount of time playing PR doesn't warrant the chance to pay for a SM, or that the money goes towards the mod PR itself. There is the option to pay on a month to month basis, rather than a yearly basis, and there is also the option to pay a higher yearly amount. I know many members of TG who pay month to month sometime taking a few months off due to work, school, life, newborns etc, yes sometimes during those months when they are not a SM they get kicked for a SM. These things happen, heck I'm an SM and I've gotten kicked for a SM before, stuff happens, you just have to roll with the punches.

Personally I feel that the Devs should get a free pass/free slot on all PR Servers, but that is just my personal feeling.

So I was playing on TG during the .9 release password event and I got kicked for a supporting member. I found this kind of odd, because I am a supporting member at TG. Turned out that my year-long membership had expired during the event. Once I figured that out, I re-upped my SM as fast as I could .

About the suggestion to increase the cost of supporting memberships; people who play PR aren't the only supporting members at TG. There are plenty of other community members who have SMs and play other games, or just enjoy the forums. I doubt all these people would be pleased if the price of SMs was raised just to discourage their use on the TG PR server.