Project Reality Forums

You can't request crewman kit at APC??

I'm sure you still can request crewman at heavy vehicles and pilot at aircraft.

By the way, thanks to whoever has / had that thing about aircraft's plural in his sig, that improved by english a little bit

I have a few issues with these new Logistics changes that I hope can be addressed. For the most part I think they are innovative and interesting, and even those I have problems with will, I'm sure, be accepted and integrated over time.

My main issue lies with the Repair Drop. As some other people have pointed out, this new ability for the logistic truck seems somewhat counter-intuitive. Aside from effectively removing the Engineer from the game (We really can't call him an engineer any more considering he no longer does anything resembling that trade), the drop is also a back step for a mod which is concerned with realism. While I can understand that it is not a common occurrence for a Mechanic to perform emergency repairs on a Vehicle in the midst of combat, surely this is more plausible than returning to a repair field generated by a Repair Crate. In addition, that the crate is capable of being redeployed at will is, as has been previously mentioned, likely to decrease its effectiveness on the field. I think the DEV's need to offer a little more explanation behind their design for the Repair drop; where did the inspiration for this mechanic come from? And why do they feel it will be a more effective tool than the Engineer Wrench?

My second issue is with the new Supply Crate system. While I can understand why a Vehicle Re-Supply Station would not re-arm an enemy vehicle, I do not understand why the decision was made to make all crates faction specific in regards to ammo. I imagine that the rationale behind this was that a US ammo crate would only carry ammo for US soldiers. While this logic seems solid, there are a few glaring holes in my opinion. First and foremost, if a US soldier captures and enemy kit, will it re-arm off a US crate? If it does than how is this possible? If it does not then it should re-arm off an enemy crate, and if it does not do that then why? Additionally, while PR's many factions and weapons employ various different types of ammunition, it is also true that many of these calibers are in use in both factions of certain maps: i.e. 9mm pistol rounds, smoke grenades, bandages, and so on. While I do not dispute that other types of ammunition like M203 rounds, AT rounds and so fourth would be unlikely to be found on enemy supply caches, I think that the system is just as hypocritical in its newer format and should therefore remain universal.

Last but not least, I am curious about the new kit request system. If crates still contain finite amounts of ammunition, and we have not be told otherwise yet, then this would imply that Kits will indeed be harder to come by, as crates will themselves frequently disintegrate simply by virtue of having been used up of ammo. This still leaves APC's for acquiring Kits, but I am uncertain as to why Kits were removed from FOB's which now seem to exist for only two purposes: 1. To act as a group spawn, 2. To enable the deployment of static defenses. In 0.8 these uses were compounded by the deployed vehicles and selected Kits i.e. Heavy AT, Sniper, and Spec Ops. A Bunker or FOB is, by definition, a place from where troops would be expected to enter the battlefield, and does it not seem more realistic to expect that a soldier would enter the field equipped for the mission he will complete rather than enter the field, cross 10, 100, or 1000m of terrain and then pickup his mission specific equipment from a crate. In short, while I understand and accept the removal of rally points as a kit request location, I do not think that crates should be added in their stead. Let kits instead be limited to FOBs and APC's.


Thanks,


DJ

Holy ****, that's a lot of changes. Can't wait to try the new gameplay

I realize that most people are probably glossing over my post due to the amount of sheer text, so I decided to post a less eloquent summation.

1. Repair Drop: This feature seems less realistic than having an engineer with a wrench, what was the DEV's plan for this feature and why do they think it is more effective than the previous system?

2. Supply System: Will soldier using captured kits be able to re-arm off friendly supply crates? If they can, why can't enemy soldiers re-arm off those same crates? If you can't re-arm your captured kit off friendly crates, can you re-arm it off enemy crates? If you can't, why not?

3. Kit Request System: Having kits requestable from crates creates an un-necessary disconnect between a player and his intended mission. It makes no sense to have a rifleman wandering the battlefield looking for a crate to acquire his AT kit instead of letting him get it at the FOB where he spawns. After all, FOB's are supposed to be a forward deployment area.

Addendum to 3: A DEV is going to point out here that crates will need to be deployed at FOB's to allow their construction anyways. I am not convinced by this argument as it seems counter-intuitive to say that while a few bullets would destroy your ammo and kit request point, you can still spawn at that FOB until someone knifes the radio. The spawn and kit request points should be one and the same.

My main issue lies with the Repair Drop. As some other people have pointed out, this new ability for the logistic truck seems somewhat counter-intuitive. Aside from effectively removing the Engineer from the game (We really can't call him an engineer any more considering he no longer does anything resembling that trade), the drop is also a back step for a mod which is concerned with realism. While I can understand that it is not a common occurrence for a Mechanic to perform emergency repairs on a Vehicle in the midst of combat, surely this is more plausible than returning to a repair field generated by a Repair Crate. In addition, that the crate is capable of being redeployed at will is, as has been previously mentioned, likely to decrease its effectiveness on the field. I think the DEV's need to offer a little more explanation behind their design for the Repair drop; where did the inspiration for this mechanic come from? And why do they feel it will be a more effective tool than the Engineer Wrench?

I have the feeling they did something drastic with the engineer class and we'll get an update about that soon. I might be wrong of course.

Spec_Operator wrote:I have the feeling they did something drastic with the engineer class and we'll get an update about that soon. I might be wrong of course.

No, I feel like you are probably right. Rhino suggested as much previously. However, the fact that they are making major changes to the Engineer does not explain why we are now using magic welding tanks to repair our vehicles in the field.

Last but not least, I am curious about the new kit request system. If crates still contain finite amounts of ammunition, and we have not be told otherwise yet, then this would imply that Kits will indeed be harder to come by, as crates will themselves frequently disintegrate simply by virtue of having been used up of ammo.

This is a good point. I'd all for having the ammo only come out if you're really close to it, but kits being requestable from 10 meters or so. So at least smart players could avoid that problem.

Darth Disco makes a very good point about soldiers wandering around, looking for a crate so they can get a specific kit. Can we have crates be marked on the map? Just an icon in the shape of a box, just something so the team knows where to get kits and supplies.

The repair crate change prevents tank crews and other vehicles from being 100% self sufficient, should they be crewed with .8 style engineers, at least when it comes to repairs and combat damage.

DarthDisco wrote:a few bullets would destroy your ammo and kit request point

A Dev has said the the crates will be damaged only by c4, slams, apcs, tanks, and HMGs

I am curious as to what the ammo supply will be on the crates and whether they will disappear when their supply is depleted, as that could lead to kit availability issues.

Thanks for the support Waldo, although in truth I don't think that adding a crate icon solves the problem. Namely, that you still have soldiers who are moving to seemingly inconsequential parts of the map simply to get a new kit. Assume for a second that the crates at the FOB were destroyed, but there is one sitting 400m away in the middle of the woods. Its not on the way to any flag, its not a combat zone, but there is a crate there. Does it seem realistic, or even desirable for gameplay purposes that a player, or even a whole squad, would make a 400m detour just to get some kits? Those kits should be readily available from the FOB itself.

[R-DEV]Chuc wrote:The repair crate change prevents tank crews and other vehicles from being 100% self sufficient, should they be crewed with .8 style engineers, at least when it comes to repairs and combat damage.

Then I believe Johnny had the right idea when he implied that the Repair crate is simply excessive. It is, at best, a bandage for tanks, but it is silly to implement it when the vehicles are going to have to return to their main base for complete repair and re-supply anyways. If anything, having the Repair crate could encourage vehicles crews to remain the field longer than they otherwise should, meaning more lost vehicles instead of more saved ones.

DarthDisco wrote:Then I believe Johnny had the right idea when he implied that the Repair crate is simply excessive. It is, at best, a bandage for tanks, but it is silly to implement it when the vehicles are going to have to return to their main base for complete repair and re-supply anyways. If anything, having the Repair crate could encourage vehicles crews to remain the field longer than they otherwise should, meaning more lost vehicles instead of more saved ones.

I don't think so, what I think Chuc meant was that instead of simply having an engie in the 50 cal do all the work, you would need to cooperate with the logistic trucks to get the repair. And since the repair supplies have an infinite ammo, I'd imagine you'd get repaired fully.

waldo_ii wrote:Just an icon in the shape of a box, just something so the team knows where to get kits and supplies.

this.

Not necessarily. It was pointed out that they only remain active for a set amount of time, meaning that, depending on how damaged the vehicle in question is, and how long the crate has been deployed, the vehicle will only receive partial repair. Questions of usefulness aside, the point remains the same, why revert to repair fields?

Chuc says it is to prevent Tank crews from being 100% self sufficient, but it sounds now like they simply need to get the engineer who was previously in the 50 cal to now drive the Logistic's truck and follow the tank around. Nothing has changed save for 2 minor facts: The Engineer is marginally more vulnerable, being in a truck instead of merely perched atop the tank, and the 50 cal gun is now unmanned, reducing the tank's firepower incrementally.

While I see how this is meant to encourage more co-ordination and teamwork, I can't help but feel like this mechanic is instead force-feeding us more teamwork than we really need. Were tanks really that self-sufficient in 0.8? Even with an engineer permanently attached to the squad, or even 2 Tanks with 2 Engineers, a tank unit still had to retreat to a safe location to conduct repairs, and even then, repair operations were slow and tanks were vulnerable during them. I just don't see how this new system improves on the old.

Theres also the problem I mentioned earlier in the thread Darth. Not only will the logisitcs truck follow the armour sq , but they will also deprive the rest of the team any repairs.

On top of that, anyone can drive the logistics truck, so now with even less transport on the map, its quite likely that someone will use the logistics truck as a 2 man taxi to the front, where it will be left abandoned.

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Jaymz;886068']

Let's see,

There are 2 Logistics Trucks per map and they each have 2 seats. That's a grand total of 4 people running Logistical Support out of a possible 32 players per team.

There are, however, a few maps that have an exception to this rule. Large scale armoured conflicts (Kashan being a prime example) will have 4 Logistics Trucks per team. This is to accommodate for the resource consuming nature of MBT's/IFV's (you have to bare in mind that the burden of field repairs now lies with Logistics Trucks).

So, even if we give you the benefit of a doubt and assume we are on Kashan Desert 64 with,

1 x Commander
4 x Logistical Personnel
2 x Transport Helicopter Pilots

That's 7 players out of a possible 32 that are partaking in a "non-combat role". Not even 1/4th of the team.[/quote]

Originally Posted by spacemanc
I hope the suggestion that the APC gunner position can be used without a crewman kit, and by people from different squads will be considered.

[quote="M_Striker""]Um.. you're reasoning for this? This will definitely mean more single seating. APC's should still be coordinated somewhat...

Also, these changes WILL make pub games harder. Pub games are always frustrating. That's why I only play with my clan, or buds, because, you're always gonna get those "noobs". On the bright side, these changes might scare off the "noobs" making the game to complicated. But we'll see.[/quote]

Theres 7 players that are logistics, but now you need an apc for transport thats another 2 guys gone per APC. Lets say 2 apcs - we've now lost 11 players to logistics. Then take into account Tanks, AAV, CAS aircraft, and that doesnt leave a whole lot of infantry.

The transport APC's are only going to have .50 cals, so theyre basically becoming upamoured humvees. Imagine if it was suggested that you needed a crewman kit to drive the humvee, with a gunner in the same squad also with a crewman kit, to man the .50 cal - see what Im getting at now?

i think you guys are missing something.

No-where in this whole thread did it say only 1 repair crate can be at the map at one time. This means EACH support truck has a repair crate + the supply crates that it has in the back. 1 Logistics truck follows a tank squad. 1 Logistics truck falls the rest of the infantry/APC squad. Both sections will still have their repair crates. 2 Logistics truck on the map, 2 repair crates possible, works fine.

What they did say is that they can keep moving the repair crate up. It will last for 2-5 mins (source: rhino's previous post), but if you drive a logistics truck forward from the last repair crate before that time expires, and push x, the previous repair crate will disappear (the one dropped by that logistics truck remember) and will reappear at the new position. If you let it stay for 2 mins, from what i've understood from reading, is that it disappears and you just have to redeploy it.

this is based on this statement on the first page:

"Deployed by the logistics trucks (default X), can repair vehicles in close proximity. Only one allowed per truck but with unlimited "supply", so you can move up, deploy a new one, and the old one will disappear. No need to rearm them like the supply crates. For 0.85, the wrench will only be used for mine disposal."



The Repair Crate as said, are on an infinite counter, unlike the supply crate, that, like currently implemented, a logistic truck only has 2 before having to go back to base.

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Disco you are right, that they are just moving the engineer from the .50 cal position to driving a logistics truck behind.

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Chuc/Jaymz/Rhino/Dev, please feel free to correct because that's atleast how I understood everything.