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It is useless, remove it.

I disagree with the above (those who know me well might find it strange to hear me arguing for the sniper), here's why.

For me a sniper is just like any infantry kit in PR, it has certain advantages/disadvantage and has certain attributes that set it apart from the other kits. Similar to how a rifleman specialist is probably the best kit to use in CQB, the sniper rifle is the best weapon to employ when long range precision is required. I have seen the sniper used in a variety of different ways and many times have seen it used very realistically and effectively.

Examples:

Not so long ago I was playing on Kashan Desert flying a transport chopper. One of the squads that I transported was Portable.Cougar's squad and whilst in the bunker area they were heavily engaged by hostile infantry from the northen bunker. What Cougar did impressed me, by employing an MG gunner to suppress the enemy and a sniper (Silly_Savage) to get the kill shots. As the range was extreme the MG could easily suppress, but no so easily kill whilst with cover from the SAW Silly was able to get a decent vantage point and pick off several hostiles. To those who say that a marksman/any scoped kit could have done the same job I challenge you to make headshots at 650/700m with consistency...

Now this is where a sniper can work well as part of an infantry squad, so long as they're all working together. With the precise fire from the sniper and the MG as cover Cougar's squad were able to move up with ease and take the Northern bunkers and whilst supporting Rudd's BMP they took down several enemy AT weapons that might have been used to cause a lot of damage. Afterwards they were able to move into the Northern hills and clear out an enemy FOB, winning most firefights because of the long range and precise fire they could put down.


Similarly from the recon role, playing on Muttrah I was part of an infantry squad at the North City flag. We came under fire from a sniper in the hills who killed our SL, Medic and a couple others before we got revived. Subsequently we poured as much fire as we could, including AT rockets and bags of small arms fire up towards him but couldn't get the kill. The point of all this was that either the sniper had called out our location or the barrage of fire we returned marked us out because within just a few minutes an enemy infantry squad came through and cleaned us out, whilst we were heavily distracted by the sniper.

Both of these were intense, interesting engagements, made possible by the employment of a sniper and it would be a shame to have it removed for the sake of a few lone wolves who would otherwise move onto some other kit/vehicle and waste that too. Everything in PR has it's uses and the sniper is no different so whilst it does occasionally get abused it can still provide a valuable role, so long as the scenario requires it.

The unfortunate thing with the sniper is that because of the precedence that is set in games like CoD it gets requested when it is not needed, for example you would not take an AT kit unless there was a likelihood of meeting hostile armour, but with a sniper people take it just because in CoD they can pwn with it, but that doesn't mean that in PR at that time it is required or useful. It does have it's uses as demonstrated above, but only when applied in the correct way and thus it is the same as any other kit.

It is useful, lets keep it in.

I've got to disagree with some of the sniper hate being tossed around. I perceive the sniper in inf squad issue as normally being a problem of the SL not knowing how to use the sniper. Often asking the sniper to act counter-intuitively, the SL will put the kit as risk simply because he does not have the patience to assign over-watch then allow the sniper sufficient time to regroup.

I was in a squad with a DMR and a Sniper, and we were on Muttrah. Now I'm sure most people would cringe at the prospect of having two people assuming the same role. I was assigned AR and told to stick with the Sniper. We played defensively, which resulted in a complete lock-down of roughly a 2 block area. We stayed at our corners and watched as the enemy poured out into the cross roads, only to come under intense, and accurate fire. I'm not sure, but it felt like a momentum changing tactic. We went on to push MEC back to the castle, and only fell apart when we tried to assault.

The issue is not with the kit, and probably not with the man on the trigger. Chances are the issue is with the lack of direction given to the sniper (I am aware that this is often the fault of the ub3r1337 sniper knowing more then an inf-sl), and the distinct lack of willingness to give him a chance.

It seems unfair to let the foolish snipers ruin it for the rest of us, especially when considering that the kit in the hands of a pro you can stall/eliminate whole squads without risking more then 1 man (and his kit).

What jiggy has described is a rare occurrence in game. I would liken it to back when pilots had a pistol, AKA, the rare chance that a pilot would actually use it for defense as opposed to try to go on a suicide offense. Jiggy, while I respect your position I counter a few things, as I am ******* like that.

'[R-MOD wrote:Jigsaw;1386158']

For me a sniper is just like any infantry kit in PR, it has certain advantages/disadvantage and has certain attributes that set it apart from the other kits. Similar to how a rifleman specialist is probably the best kit to use in CQB, the sniper rifle is the best weapon to employ when long range precision is required. I have seen the sniper used in a variety of different ways and many times have seen it used very realistically and effectively.

Thats the thing, the sniper kit isn't like any infantry kit in PR, in fact it is different. It can be used in conjunction with an infantry squad, but, often times that goes wrong, and it isn't how the kit should be used.

I agree that it's advantages are great, but they are heavily outweighed by their disadvantages. I think that in the 26 pages before this one, we can see that the majority of players know that the kit will, many more times than not, be used improperly and not only wasted, but lost.

The sniper rifle is the best weapon to use at long range, I agree with you heavily. This is because thats what it's made for it's made to kill things at that range. However, with the current medic system you often are not killing, but instead wounding until you can kill the medic. A smart medic under this circumstance would not come out of cover until the sniper was killed, or until the sniper got tired of waiting and the smoke was up. This means that a snipers role has to be use as a reconnaissance role and the occasional killing role.

Finally I'll get to the bold. I have seen the sniper used in horrible ways that benefit no one, offer no teamwork, and end up in players getting pissed off with no gain at all towards the team. I think you would agree with me when I say that this happens more often that the kit being used properly. Going back to the DA (short hand for disadvantage that I picked up in debate), the DA here proves that a sniper kit isn't useful in the long run.

[R-MOD]Jigsaw wrote: Not so long ago I was playing on Kashan Desert flying a transport chopper. One of the squads that I transported was Portable.Cougar's squad and whilst in the bunker area they were heavily engaged by hostile infantry from the northen bunker. What Cougar did impressed me, by employing an MG gunner to suppress the enemy and a sniper (Silly_Savage) to get the kill shots. As the range was extreme the MG could easily suppress, but no so easily kill whilst with cover from the SAW Silly was able to get a decent vantage point and pick off several hostiles. To those who say that a marksman/any scoped kit could have done the same job I challenge you to make headshots at 650/700m with consistency...

This is impressive. However it only show's the creativity and ingenuity that players have when they play this game. Had it been another squad leader this wouldnt have happened. I think I can also say that this is a rare occurrence. How many other times have you seen this happen? Not many, but it sounds cool so I'll see if I can use it tonight. I also don't like the idea of having a sniper in the squad, maybe it's because rarely do you have engagements of 700m in PR on an everyday occurrence. On Kashan, I can understand, but on other maps? Not likely.

[R-MOD]Jigsaw wrote: Now this is where a sniper can work well as part of an infantry squad, so long as they're all working together. With the precise fire from the sniper and the MG as cover Cougar's squad were able to move up with ease and take the Northern bunkers and whilst supporting Rudd's BMP they took down several enemy AT weapons that might have been used to cause a lot of damage. Afterwards they were able to move into the Northern hills and clear out an enemy FOB, winning most firefights because of the long range and precise fire they could put down.

This sounds really cool, and it sounds like some excellent teamwork. Tell me, in the off chance that portable's sniper didn't have the kit, do you think that a blue sniper would have helped? I don't think so, and I don't think that this would have happened with the majority of the people who choose the sniper kit.

[R-MOD]Jigsaw wrote: Similarly from the recon role, playing on Muttrah I was part of an infantry squad at the North City flag. We came under fire from a sniper in the hills who killed our SL, Medic and a couple others before we got revived. Subsequently we poured as much fire as we could, including AT rockets and bags of small arms fire up towards him but couldn't get the kill. The point of all this was that either the sniper had called out our location or the barrage of fire we returned marked us out because within just a few minutes an enemy infantry squad came through and cleaned us out, whilst we were heavily distracted by the sniper.

A lone riflemen could have seen you, and called you out. If that sniper had only a pair of bino's he could have done the same thing without revealing his position. This time it payed off for him, as he gave recon roles and assistance, but if the team had been busy fighting somewhere else, you guys would have killed the sniper.

[R-MOD]Jigsaw wrote: Both of these were intense, interesting engagements, made possible by the employment of a sniper and it would be a shame to have it removed for the sake of a few lone wolves who would otherwise move onto some other kit/vehicle and waste that too. Everything in PR has it's uses and the sniper is no different so whilst it does occasionally get abused it can still provide a valuable role, so long as the scenario requires it.

Jiggy, again in the 26 pages before this one, you can see that it isn't "occasionally" that the kit gets abused, its often. Very often. These examples that you have provided are great ones, when a sniper uses his tools to help the team. Most don't do that, and only use their tools to try to get kills and fulfill their own sense of joy.

'[R-MOD wrote:Jigsaw;1386158']
The unfortunate thing with the sniper is that because of the precedence that is set in games like CoD it gets requested when it is not needed, for example you would not take an AT kit unless there was a likelihood of meeting hostile armour, but with a sniper people take it just because in CoD they can pwn with it, but that doesn't mean that in PR at that time it is required or useful. It does have it's uses as demonstrated above, but only when applied in the correct way and thus it is the same as any other kit.

It does. And those were rare occurrences on good servers with good players. Usually it doesn't go down like that , and it is only a detriment to the team.

[R-MOD]Jigsaw wrote: It is useful, lets keep it in.

It is useless more time that it is useful. By this, remove it.

A thought occurred to me while reading your replies Eddie, I see a lot of people wasting assets such as MBT/LAVs etc. in the same sense that a sniper kit could/would be lost. I don't expect anyone to have a 27 page long thread about how people take assets and try to lonewolf it so we should remove them. If someone snags that asset and rides straight into the mouth of the enemy just to get blow to pieces (happens ALL THE TIME!) you wouldn't want to remove the assets. The biggest difference would be the fact that the opposition gets the kit, which chances are would result in that same SL that kicked the sniper before picking it to deny enemy access to it (I've yet to be told to drop an enemy sniper kit).

It's an issue with the players more then the game, I think that's the point a lot of us are trying to get at.

Jig, i do have to say that both those times were very well thought out... but what happened after to the sniper kit... as you just meantioned some actions that took place over 5-15 mins rather than whole round which i can guess ethier thkit was disposed of because it was useless, given to another squad that ethier looses it or does very little with it, kept and removed one of their squad members from the direct fight.Also if the DM rifle is made a little bit more accurate (not much as sniper just a little bit more than it is now) then it'll be able to perform these long ranges.

Murphy while i did read your post and think, hmmm good use, but what happened to your sniper kits after... lost i guess and using a sniper within a city is not using its long range capabilties and a rifle men specalist/ammo riflemen/L-AT would've been more sencible imo than a sniper due to the close ranges (2 blocks?). Also like you said fell apart when you tried to assault thus meanign i guess that your SL tried to turn your defence squad into a attacking one.

I always get my squad members to hide enemy sniper kits rather than keep them as i find they distract my squad members, also if a person is wasting armor/apc's which actualy doesn't happen as much as it does with sniper kits (hardly even as much) as they get kicked before they get there (if they're one manning). also vehicals are worth tickets so players are often more careful with them and also because they are often claimable assets so they are used by the correct squad/players and tanks/apc's arn't protrayed in movies as the elite of the army and in vBF2 they arn't that great ethier so arn't the main focus of new players, which are often the ones i find that die the quickest/don't know how to use the sniper rifle.

i started the thread on this based because i nopticed its not being used correctly very often if at all even in one whole day of PR i don't think it is used once correctly, even then it still performs thwe role that a nother less valuble kit could've/one that is squad limited rather than team limited.

Murphy wrote:A thought occurred to me while reading your replies Eddie, I see a lot of people wasting assets such as MBT/LAVs etc. in the same sense that a sniper kit could/would be lost. I don't expect anyone to have a 27 page long thread about how people take assets and try to lonewolf it so we should remove them. If someone snags that asset and rides straight into the mouth of the enemy just to get blow to pieces (happens ALL THE TIME!) you wouldn't want to remove the assets. The biggest difference would be the fact that the opposition gets the kit, which chances are would result in that same SL that kicked the sniper before picking it to deny enemy access to it (I've yet to be told to drop an enemy sniper kit).

It's an issue with the players more then the game, I think that's the point a lot of us are trying to get at.

It's all relative.

How often do you see a sniper used properly? To be honest even those who claim to be great snipers are not doing their jobs. An actual good sniper is so rare it's like trying to find a kangaroo on Antarctica.

i'm going to aggree with Brummy on the fact that the sniper kit is definetly not used efftively at all usualy its hardly even counted as an assest but as a hinderance to the team, i even found myself today taking bets with my squad seeing how long the sniper would last/how usful it would've been compared to a marksmen (on foolsroad) we all agreed that a marksmen should've been taken, i was then pointed out to that they had a marksmen as well as a combat enginer . To little surprise they all died and lost their kits while our apc squad and tank squads worked well together and weren't killed often and there was always two vehicals to support us with armor.

To use APCs as a comparison, how often have you seen people two manning APCs, driving off somewhere and parking up, putting rounds on a target without a care in the world. Would you say that this playstyle is detrimental to teamwork? After all, APCs are supposed to be used to transport infantry, and more often than not this isn't done, APCs being relegated to mobile gun platforms. Gun platforms that don't move with infantry squads but instead go off and do their own thing.

The point I am trying to make is that people abuse kits and assets all the time, even more so than the sniper (killing infantry with TOW anyone?), why remove a kit that a fair number of players use simply because some people don't like it?

BlackwaterSaxon wrote:To use APCs as a comparison, how often have you seen people two manning APCs, driving off somewhere and parking up, putting rounds on a target without a care in the world. Would you say that this playstyle is detrimental to teamwork? After all, APCs are supposed to be used to transport infantry, and more often than not this isn't done, APCs being relegated to mobile gun platforms. Gun platforms that don't move with infantry squads but instead go off and do their own thing.

The point I am trying to make is that people abuse kits and assets all the time, even more so than the sniper (killing infantry with TOW anyone?), why remove a kit that a fair number of players use simply because some people don't like it?

Most of the time I find that APCs are willing to transport infantry as long as you ask for it. Again, the percentages are way different.

Anyway, yes the TOW shooting at infantry is abuse, and that's why it's getting tweaked.

Brummy wrote:Most of the time I find that APCs are willing to transport infantry as long as you ask for it. Again, the percentages are way different.

Anyway, yes the TOW shooting at infantry is abuse, and that's why it's getting tweaked.

Admittedly, I have managed to get an APC to transport me, but even then it has taken a while for anyone to even attempt to transport in their APC.

Why not tweak the snipers role and kit then

[quote=""'[R-MOD"]Eddiereyes909;1386172']Finally I'll get to the bold. I have seen the sniper used in horrible ways that benefit no one, offer no teamwork, and end up in players getting pissed off with no gain at all towards the team. I think you would agree with me when I say that this happens more often that the kit being used properly. Going back to the DA (short hand for disadvantage that I picked up in debate), the DA here proves that a sniper kit isn't useful in the long run.[/quote]

In all honesty I have never seen a sniper used in a way that causes grief and problems for the rest of the team, other than one less infantryman on the frontline and the exact prejudices that caused this thread to be created; other people on the server seeing a sniper not doing a whole lot and then moaning about how it's not being used "correctly". By way of comparison i've seen players run over others whilst lone-wolfing in APCs, i've seen H-AT kits taken out onto an insurgency map only to be lost and used to take down Blufor armour with ease and any number of other abuses of kits and assets; none of which a sniper rifle is capable of.

Lets remember what we're talking about here, we're talking about one dude with a long range rifle, a pistol and a GLTD. He's not gonna grief anyone by running them over, he can teamkill every now and then but so can any bloke with a rifle and he doesn't have any mines to blow up your vehicles. He's not gonna drive straight by you when you need a lift and he isn't going to mount up in a helicopter and leave when a flag is in desperate need of an extra squad for defense. Really, to all intents and purposes, the sniper isn't capable of doing very much at all, yet for some reason has this magnificent stigma attached to it that it is somehow bad because a few people go off and lone-wolf with it.

Can someone please give me an example of when they have had a sniper grief them worse than they've experienced elsewhere?

[quote="killonsight95""]Jig, i do have to say that both those times were very well thought out... but what happened after to the sniper kit... as you just meantioned some actions that took place over 5-15 mins rather than whole round which i can guess ethier thkit was disposed of because it was useless, given to another squad that ethier looses it or does very little with it, kept and removed one of their squad members from the direct fight.[/quote]

A more interesting question is why are you concerned about what happened to it afterwards? Why does everyone get bent out of shape when a sniper kit gets lost, and subsequently posts about how it should be removed from PR because it is not useful? Surely it has it's uses, otherwise it wouldn't be such a concern when one is lost to the other team...

[R-MOD]Eddiereyes909 wrote:This is impressive. However it only show's the creativity and ingenuity that players have when they play this game. Had it been another squad leader this wouldnt have happened. I think I can also say that this is a rare occurrence. How many other times have you seen this happen? Not many, but it sounds cool so I'll see if I can use it tonight. I also don't like the idea of having a sniper in the squad, maybe it's because rarely do you have engagements of 700m in PR on an everyday occurrence. On Kashan, I can understand, but on other maps? Not likely.

Well, in a way that's exactly my point. Given the correct circumstances the kit is very useful like on Kashan, Qinling and other 4km maps; more of which look to be coming into PR in future versions. In this same way it is just the same as a rifleman specialist; immensely useful in CQB on Asad Khal, but pretty much useless on the wide open spaces of Qinling. At the end of the day, it is a tool that does a specialist job just like most requestable kits in PR (on a related note i've often seen people taking AA kits on 1km maps where there are no aircraft, but there's no argument that they should be removed...).

[R-MOD]Eddiereyes909 wrote:This is impressive. However it only show's the creativity and ingenuity that players have when they play this game. Had it been another squad leader this wouldnt have happened. I think I can also say that this is a rare occurrence. How many other times have you seen this happen? Not many, but it sounds cool so I'll see if I can use it tonight.

Well why stop that creativity because of the few who abuse the system? That's like saying that APCs should be removed because often they're used as mobile armoured gun platforms rather than infantry support/transport. As I said above, the potential for abuse of an APC and the damage that can be caused to a team far outweighs anything that the sniper is capable of.

[R-MOD]Eddiereyes909 wrote:Jiggy, again in the 26 pages before this one, you can see that it isn't "occasionally" that the kit gets abused, its often. Very often. These examples that you have provided are great ones, when a sniper uses his tools to help the team. Most don't do that, and only use their tools to try to get kills and fulfill their own sense of joy.

Those were rare occurrences on good servers with good players. Usually it doesn't go down like that , and it is only a detriment to the team.


It is useless more time that it is useful. By this, remove it.

I still remember when I joined the PRT, you told me in the lead up to the first battle of C7 on Al Kufrah Oilfields how in a previous game Mitch, by himself as a sniper had killed more of the enemy team than anyone else and proved a bigger stumbling block to the enemy than any of our infantry squads or tanks. Now, leaving aside what that says about the state of the NATO infantry in C6 , it does demonstrate clearly how effective a sniper rifle can be in the right hands and surely that outweighs the times where it doesn't get used to support the rest of the team.

TL;DR - At best a sniper can be a magnificent asset to any squad or team, at worst he is one guy with a long range weapon that many won't be able to master and who isn't really capable of causing any significant damage to anyone.

gazzthompson wrote:i absolutely hate snipers, hate them. ive kicked my own clan mates from my squads who have requested them. i would love to see the removed.

i have no problem with good snipers, in their own squad. I have also kicked members from my clan for taking this sniper kit when i told him specifically not to. But he goes no im taking and i'll be fine...he takes it and i kick him from the squad, he yells at me in TS but i say i told you not to take it, make a sniper squad.

jig all those arguements are saying well all these other assets have the same problems? well those problems arn't mgnified as much as a the sniper one because guess what.... its actualy comming to the point where taking a sniper can hinder your team because if the other team get it they don't actualy care if they loose it or not because it's not theirs. Also lone wolfing apc's is a kickable offence on msot if not all servers while snipers can't really be moderatered.

killonsight95 wrote:well those problems arn't mgnified as much as a the sniper one because guess what.... its actualy comming to the point where taking a sniper can hinder your team because if the other team get it they don't actualy care if they loose it or not because it's not theirs.

But ask yourself why do you think that is such an issue? What exactly can the enemy do with 4 sniper rifles that they can't with 2, scout you some more? In what way does not having the sniper rifles hinder the team, surely if you completely remove them you'll be hindering them even more...

If sniper rifles are so useless, why does everyone on a server have a go at anyone who loses one?

[R-MOD]Jigsaw wrote:But ask yourself why do you think that is such an issue? What exactly can the enemy do with 4 sniper rifles that they can't with 2, scout you some more? In what way does not having the sniper rifles hinder the team, surely if you completely remove them you'll be hindering them even more...

If sniper rifles are so useless, why does everyone on a server have a go at anyone who loses one?

^ This.

This crusade against the sniper kit is bewildering, I'm starting to think it's a case of "Tards keep taking ma sniper rifle, so i want it removed cos if i cant hav it, no one can"

killonsight95 wrote:well those problems arn't mgnified as much as a the sniper one because guess what.... its actualy comming to the point where taking a sniper can hinder your team because if the other team get it they don't actualy care if they loose it or not because it's not theirs.

SO I have to ask :0 witch one is it? Is sniper that useless that it needs to be removed but on the other hand it can hinder the entire team if enemy gets the kit? Does the kit becomes deadly ONLY when it's lost? Going back over to same old deal where you might as well get rid of HA-T and combat engie, simply because by loosing that to the enemy can cause way more damage

because they've lsot a ticket and a rifle that has long ranges, i also moan at poeple who loose marksmen kits for the same reason as well as H-AT's and L-AT's. This is because if the enemy have a sniper then we could cuse the sniper kit for about 3 mins then drop it and collect out prev kit back up once the enemy sniper is killed. however this wouldn't be needed if the sniper kit was never around. if it does stay in game it should be reduced to one per team and be given ticket worth, eg. 2-3 tickets if lost to make sure poeple don't just randomly take it. I also guess the fact that a sniper is not seen to be doing very much often concetrats on his K/D rather thna the team K/D or team needs, half the time when a sniper is needed they are all gone because some guys sitting on a hill far away from out lines shooting randoms.

the reason people have a go at them is because they've used and most of the time if not all of the time wasted the sniper kit on about 5 guys all of which have been revived killed the sniper got his kit and are now shooting at us with the very same kit.
I know poeple say its a player problem and people say players are hardcoded... well tech they arn't if the sniper kit an't there they can't use it/loose it/waste it. Also now marksmen will be used more and used more apropratly than the sniper.

At black and USMC good arguement but i already said the reason its a hiderance is because it takes people away from the fight and away from cap radius, if someone on the enemy team takes that kit it is because they were hindering the team anyway by being away from the fight as well but now he's got a sniper rifle to assist him/them on their quest for top of the leader board score.

killonsight95 wrote:because they've lsot a ticket and a rifle that has long ranges, i also moan at poeple who loose marksmen kits for the same reason as well as H-AT's and L-AT's. This is because if the enemy have a sniper then we could cuse the sniper kit for about 3 mins then drop it and collect out prev kit back up once the enemy sniper is killed. however this wouldn't be needed if the sniper kit was never around. if it does stay in game it should be reduced to one per team and be given ticket worth, eg. 2-3 tickets if lost to make sure poeple don't just randomly take it. I also guess the fact that a sniper is not seen to be doing very much often concetrats on his K/D rather thna the team K/D or team needs, half the time when a sniper is needed they are all gone because some guys sitting on a hill far away from out lines shooting randoms.

This is simply a player issue, the way snipers act shouldn't be of concern in terms of whether kits are removed or stay. One way around the problems associated with the sniper kit and the fact that they are usually wasted or used inappropriately, could an increased respawn time be implemented like the civilian, where upon a sniper being killed, he has a higher respawn time because of what they have done, this might scare away most people from using the kit or at least limit the amount of lonewolfers on servers.

killonsight95 wrote:the reason people have a go at them is because they've used and most of the time if not all of the time wasted the sniper kit on about 5 guys all of which have been revived killed the sniper got his kit and are now shooting at us with the very same kit.
I know poeple say its a player problem and people say players are hardcoded... well tech they arn't if the sniper kit an't there they can't use it/loose it/waste it. Also now marksmen will be used more and used more apropratly than the sniper.

The marksman kit will just be used in place of the sniper rifle, which it shouldn't, the marksman is an entirely different skill set and an entirely different role to that of the sniper, why encourage people to misuse another kit by removing the kit itself? Removing kits because people misuse them is a terrible idea.

killonsight95 wrote:At black and USMC good arguement but i already said the reason its a hiderance is because it takes people away from the fight and away from cap radius, if someone on the enemy team takes that kit it is because they were hindering the team anyway by being away from the fight as well but now he's got a sniper rifle to assist him/them on their quest for top of the leader board score.

From what I have played of project reality over the years, the main difference between vanilla and PR is the fact that there is so much more going on outside of the cap radius, there are a large amount of support units, and I can think of several other kits that could be removed because they don't encourage people to go into the cap radius, but that isn't what the game is about.

I still strongly feel we're skirting around the issue that a misused asset is a lost asset, and most of what is said about the disadvantages of the sniper kit couple apply to a number of other assets. This issue could easily be raised about HAT kits on certain maps (I think it may have), but the fact is due to the nature of the snipers role this kit is under a lot of scrutiny.

Everyone wants the sniper to be an offensive shooter, but to operate effectively snipers must move with more caution then any other offensive infantryman. A good sniper knows if he gets caught moving around he will lose his kit, and most of us having been in the situation at least once know being told to relocate too often is a death warrant.

If a logistics squad snagged a sniper to provide over watch while they dug in, and manned some AA/HMG/TOWs you would be using this asset correctly. The waste comes should the sniper decide supporting a logistic squad is boring, and run off to find action.

The first scenario of the two is not as likely to happen, which makes me believe that players not knowing when/how to use this asset is the root of this issue. It would be a great loss to the squads/players that understand the role a sniper fills should we lose out because people try to make it something it is not (vbf2 sniper kit). It's actually a testament to how nicely balanced the kit really is when everyone groans at most attempts to use it.