Project Reality Forums

RCMoonPie wrote: But...if my civie balance idea were implemented...had the civie been actively using his binos or throwing rocks....you would not have been punished.

But then youd have civies switching between them rapidly and such. Easily exploited in my opinion.

I think civies need to always be a bad thing to shoot [aside from in vehicles and ladders, since as far as I know, there isnt a workaround, or is but...meh.

Its a civi. Sure he may suck and help out INS, but you dont SHOOT him because he gave them bandages or screamed out from his window pointing your tank out, etc.

Well, maybe SoF would

I agree okita. No one likes civis helping the insurgents, but killing them leads to much worse consequences, like more people actively helping the insurgents.

'[R-CON wrote:OkitaMakoto;627073']But then youd have civies switching between them rapidly and such. Easily exploited in my opinion.

I think civies need to always be a bad thing to shoot [aside from in vehicles and ladders, since as far as I know, there isnt a workaround, or is but...meh.

I agree that the "flip-flop" would be frustrating.....its by design and that frustration too is realistic in a way.
One minute the civie is helping the ins.....next he is acting like situation normal...."Im just a civie here....minding my own."

Thats why you only shoot insurgents...or people you catch in the act of aiding the insurgency...make your shots count.

Yes.....once the bullets start dropping in.....it would be easy for the civie to drop his binos or drop his wrench or whatever in order to take on the "innocent civie" role.
Thats why under my suggestion, wounding or "warning" a civie by gunfire would be permissable. The wounded civie would most likely drop his "insurgent aids" for a bandage to save himself from his wound....a hard reminder that he is still a civie.....if he dies....a long wait to respawn.
The civie will want to stay alive

The class has a place in the game....folks that think otherwise are sick and tired of having the class abused and played incorrectly....and I dont blame them one bit.

Thats why I am proposing this....I feel it would balance the class for the better of insurgency game play.

RCMoonPie wrote: SOF....I am not going to give in to your argumentative nature.
I addressed the posters comment....and I gave a legitimate response...The poster can defend his own post if he deems it necessary.
Please refer to:
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... posal.html

Have a nice day.

I am not being argumentative here, but your answer to what he said was completely off base with what he said. If a civi is in the middle of 5 insurgents, you think that the civi would really be considered a "civi" anymore? No, because he is aiding an enemy force engaging a friendly force. The friendly force is sure as hell not just going to sit there and let them shoot at him, they are going to fire and grenade back as they would in real life to defend themselves.

And stop being so defensive, his problem is one of the main problems with the civilian class. What do you do when you have a bunch of civis hiding behind insurgents?

'[R-CON wrote:OkitaMakoto;627073']But then youd have civies switching between them rapidly and such. Easily exploited in my opinion.

I think civies need to always be a bad thing to shoot [aside from in vehicles and ladders, since as far as I know, there isnt a workaround, or is but...meh.

Its a civi. Sure he may suck and help out INS, but you dont SHOOT him because he gave them bandages or screamed out from his window pointing your tank out, etc.

Well, maybe SoF would

Look at SectorNine's issue which is an issue a lot of players are having with civis. What happens when you have 1 civi hiding behind a wall of insurgents? You can't grenade them or really ingage them up close because there is too much of a chance of you killing that civi or a civi that you may not even know is there.

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote: Look at SectorNine's issue which is an issue a lot of players are having with civis. What happens when you have 1 civi hiding behind a wall of insurgents? You can't grenade them or really ingage them up close because there is too much of a chance of you killing that civi or a civi that you may not even know is there.

Exactly. War w/ civies in the way sucks, I know, you dont need to tell me. What you do then is find a new way to kill the INS and hopefully keep the civi alive

(repeats to self: I will not get dragged into this again, I will not get dragged into this again...)

[R-CON]OkitaMakoto wrote:Exactly. War w/ civies in the way sucks, I know, you dont need to tell me. What you do then is find a new way to kill the INS and hopefully keep the civi alive

(repeats to self: I will not get dragged into this again, I will not get dragged into this again...)

Sometimes there is no way around it though.

I know you need to find a new way to kill them ingame if you don't want the punish etc. etc. etc., but the problem is, so many people are throwing around the "realism" argumemt when this is completely unrealistic as it is, so where do the civis really stand exactly? Some want realism but will not acknowledge this and others want fun and gameplay by returning to the old civilian look which was fine as it was.

I think it is for multiple/different reasons for which I will post...

I personally know people who don't care if they shoot civi's, in fact they do it intentionally.
Their thinking is if civi's are helping the enemy then they deserve to be shot.

"if they throw one rock at me or give one bandage to the enemy I WILL shoot them"
"they ARE combatants if they throw rocks at me and I WILL shoot them"
"they are helping the enemy therefore they ARE the enemy"

.........are just some of the comments I've heard.

Clearly this shows that some people do not wish to play the game as it was intended and that the current penalties are not enough to deter people from killing civi's.

Not sure if it would be possible with the engine but my suggestion would be:

kill a civi and you instantly die (possibly representing being court marshaled?)

All the other options in the poll have merit also.

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:I am not being argumentative here, but your answer to what he said was completely off base with what he said. If a civi is in the middle of 5 insurgents, you think that the civi would really be considered a "civi" anymore? No, because he is aiding an enemy force engaging a friendly force. The friendly force is sure as hell not just going to sit there and let them shoot at him, they are going to fire and grenade back as they would in real life to defend themselves.

you are being argumentative....and I am not off base.
Did you not read my example of the insurgents running for cover in a civie house?

Even with your statement here.....imagine this if you can....
What if a iraqi civie held a job as an anthropologist.
He is in an area where he is trying to preserve some relics in a lush grove of trees.
All of a sudden he hears gunfire!
The anthropolgist drops down to his stomach not knowing that 100 yrds away that....
Insurgents have ambushed a Brit patrol nearby and were repelled.
The insurgency retreats back to the concealment of the same grove where the iraqi anthropologist was working...
Not knowing that the anthropolgist was in the area....the brits continue engaging the insurgents.
The brits (in this example) can see clearly that there are the same 5 insurgents they had chased with weapons ablaze in different intervals....but there is another body there....on his stomach.....he is 25 feet away....it is obvious he is not holding a weapon and is instead wearing clothes similar to the students from the nearby school.

Do the Brits engage and kill the man....
who verifiably has no weapon....
who verifiably doesnt look like the verified insurgents....
whos only offense is being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
One could argue that maybe they saw a weapon.
One could argue that maybe they saw him pointing at the Brits location.
But the Brits would KNOW.
Would the brits just waste a guy for his proximity....or was he an actual insurgent?
These things would be tested within the "fog of war"
Also things like honor and integrity are tested in this "fog"

IRL you have to go by the soldier or Marine's word.
In the game....the engine and the games rules are more black and white...the game knows and will judge whether or not you fired indisciminately or not.....and will punish accordingly.

I think this is where the problem lies.....people dont want to be required to check their fire in the game.....and they dont want to be held accountable when they dont.

One last time.....please use this thread to make a suggestion....not to argue.....Moderators.....please monitor this thread for this behavior.

Ablack77 wrote:I think it is for multiple/different reasons for which I will post...

I personally know people who don't care if they shoot civi's, in fact they do it intentionally.
Their thinking is if civi's are helping the enemy then they deserve to be shot.

"if they throw one rock at me or give one bandage to the enemy I WILL shoot them"
"they ARE combatants if they throw rocks at me and I WILL shoot them"
"they are helping the enemy therefore they ARE the enemy"

...and with my suggestion....if they were verifiably killed while displaying behavior such as aiding the insurgents....you could engage them with out punishment.....and be rewarded for the kill.

But punished if they werent verifiably displaying insurgency behavior.

... Don't go into this one guys. This is about game mechanics, not about to what extent an anthropologist is at fault if some insurg wanders into his dig.

If civs are helping the insurgents in any way, they can never be killed imo. Thats nazi politics guys! Come on! So when my grandmother helped hiding some jews in WW2, some of you people say if she got caught by the Germans, they were right in killing her for helping the haunted. (they are both working against the occupiers)

My problem is that i see all that armour on Basrah with that zoomlevel just shooting everyone. Without checking if it was a civ or not. That should be punished relentless. As i said before, increase spawntimes for 1 civ kill, 3 kills is 30 minutes of OBLIGATORY teamwork. So shovel or repair if you cant shoot!!!!

[R-MOD]Masaq wrote:... Don't go into this one guys. This is about game mechanics, not about to what extent an anthropologist is at fault if some insurg wanders into his dig.

IMHO.....I think you missed the point.
The post is not about an anthropologist.
Its about a real-life scenario where insurgents placed themselves near civies on purpose, as an attempt to get the fire to ease up.
And it worked since the Brits didnt want to fire on the innocent civie.
They did however focus well-aimed fire onto the insurgents and the innocent civie lived to dig another day.
It had a happy ending...due to good marksmanship and checked fire.
This "hypothetical" contradicts SOF bicker of a statement.

Pluizert wrote:If civs are helping the insurgents in any way, they can never be killed imo. Thats nazi politics guys! Come on! So when my grandmother helped hiding some jews in WW2, some of you people say if she got caught by the Germans, they were right in killing her for helping the haunted. (they are both working against the occupiers)

Who said anything about the Germans would be "right" for killing your grandmother for hiding jews?

Pluizert wrote:My problem is that i see all that armour on Basrah with that zoomlevel just shooting everyone. Without checking if it was a civ or not. That should be punished relentless. As i said before, increase spawntimes for 1 civ kill, 3 kills is 30 minutes of OBLIGATORY teamwork. So shovel or repair if you cant shoot!!!!

This has already been suggested to a degree....
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... posal.html
But 30 minutes of anything is not going to make people play the game. As argued before....too long of any "punishment" will only make people just exit the server and rejoin stepping around any punishment at all.

RCMoonPie wrote:Who said anything about the Germans would be "right" for killing your grandmother for hiding jews? You! Arrest comes first my friend!

RCMoonPie;627171 wrote: ...and with my suggestion....if they were verifiably killed while displaying behavior such as aiding the insurgents....you could engage them with out punishment.....and be rewarded for the kill.

But punished if they werent verifiably displaying insurgency behavior.

This has already been suggested to a degree....
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... posal.html
But 30 minutes of anything is not going to make people play the game. As argued before....too long of any "punishment" will only make people just exit the server and rejoin stepping around any punishment at all.

That says more about the player than the gameplay.

Pluizert wrote:That says more about the player than the gameplay.

I never said anything about it being right to kill anyone for hiding jews.
Please quote the post where I said it.

Otherwise stop making unfounded and false remarks and stick to the sbject please.

False remarks? Why should i? Read my post again and implement it into my point of view from the real. Et voila! Yes, i'm sticking to the subject, cause you could see my grandmother as an civ working against the occupation (nazis)! Or are you one of those seeing the allies nowadays are not occupying Iraq or Afgan with forced democracy? (edit: thats offtopic sry!)

STOP. Okita Time.

He was using the idea of Nazi killing protectors of jews to compare with Soldiers killing civies who aid the Insurgent cause. Not like they really compare in the large scale, but it does have 'some' grounds. In both cases, just because someone gives humanitarian aid to the sought after group, doesnt mean it is right to kill them.

Thats not a debate on history, its simply to clarify what he means.

No one is saying kill the jews or those who protected them, come on guys. Dont be that dense. Dont go that far looking for an argument.

You guys press us MODs all the time, just talk about the freaking subject and leave your desire to find quarrels at the login.

What it boils down to is that it should never be acceptable to kill civilians. Sure, it happens, and its sad, but there need to be consequences. Not saying you should all be amazing and never kill a civy in game, but it should def. be the goal of the set up to promote that sort of lofty goal.

SectorNine50 wrote:^^^That's fair, but can we at least have a random YouTube movie show up that we can play while we wait to spawn?

Since day one of finding PR, I've always wanted some simple arcade game when you die, heh. Like pacman or something... [joke] I mean, I actually would think it was funny, but I dont REALLY want it

I think much of this discussion, and the ten or twenty similar threads, cant really be fully discussed until the recent changes are seen. Right now its kind of understood that its not perfect. it just needs some time to be tweaked and fiddled with

RCMoonPie wrote:IMHO.....I think you missed the point.
The post is not about an anthropologist.
Its about a real-life scenario where insurgents placed themselves near civies on purpose, as an attempt to get the fire to ease up.
And it worked since the Brits didnt want to fire on the innocent civie.
They did however focus well-aimed fire onto the insurgents and the innocent civie lived to dig another day.
It had a happy ending...due to good marksmanship and checked fire.
This "hypothetical" contradicts SOF bicker of a statement.

I completely understood your point. My post was a lighthearted warning to all of you to shut the hell up about Nazis and talk about PR before either I or another MOD reached for the warning points or the lock button.

Seems subtlty completely passed you by; next time I'll be sure to head straight to the blunt tools