Possible solution to civie kills....

[Celestial1]

...And the British civis will walk around the city without problem and find caches.

Because you only need one British civi who will go in first and tell his squad about the cache, all of British team knows EXACTLY where it is, and the Merlin might as well just go fly over the cache with an engi dropping c4 while he's over the cache.

It's too easy to exploit, and the Brit team doesn't need more than one civi to find the caches. All the British have to do is sit back and just attack from afar with vehicles and wait for that civi to go find the cache, and notify the Brit team.

Besides, what's the civi gonna do, spawn at the main? He can't spawn in the city because he's on the Brit team.

Harsher penalties for killing a civ; yes. British civs, no, too easy to go wrong.

[RCMoonPie]

...And the British civis will walk around the city without problem and find caches.

Because you only need one British civi who will go in first and tell his squad about the cache, all of British team knows EXACTLY where it is, and the Merlin might as well just go fly over the cache with an engi dropping c4 while he's over the cache.

It's too easy to exploit, and the Brit team doesn't need more than one civi to find the caches. All the British have to do is sit back and just attack from afar with vehicles and wait for that civi to go find the cache, and notify the Brit team.

Besides, what's the civi gonna do, spawn at the main? He can't spawn in the city because he's on the Brit team.

PLEASE read the entire thread.
The "Brit civie" would spawn at the main or at VCP.....obviously.
They would have to hump it out on foot or ride with the squad they are attached to.
Yes they would be in a squad for starters as mentioned before.....this IS a limited kit.

The civie would be no more empowered that Joe Average Brit walking around searching for a cache in game already!

Some of you are so quick to post something negative that you refuse to see the larger picture.

The brit civies are just as much at danger of being shot by another Brit or Insurgent as the insurgency civie currently is.....once again for the 3rd or 4th time in this thread alone......the purpose of this additional civie is to make ALL players stay and their toes and maintain a level of fire discipline.

Brits would have to watch the actions of civies now and watch their fire even more.....insurgents would have to watch all civies at all times......making civies behave more like their name implies......a little less emboldened and more civilized.

[Celestial1]

The civie would be no more empowered that Joe Average Brit walking around searching for a cache in game already!

Brits would have to watch the actions of civies now and watch their fire even more.....insurgents would have to watch all civies at all times......making civies behave more like their name implies......a little less emboldened and more civilized.

The brit civies are just as much at danger of being shot by another Brit or Insurgent as the insurgency civie currently is.....once again for the 3rd or 4th time in this thread alone......the purpose of this additional civie is to make ALL players stay and their toes and maintain a level of fire discipline.

Insurgents could of course kill the Brit civie....but they take a chance on a TK as well. They would have to observe the civie;'s actions to make sure they werent aiding the Brit side.

So, let's recap. Insurgents can kill a 'Brit' civi that can knife/arrest insurgent civies. All an insurgent has to do is check his map, talk to his squads civi or just point at them long enough and he'll find out which civi is which. And at all this, the Insurgent only gets a problem when he kills a teammate civi, so he can pretty much just shoot at both and only take a penalty for the team civies. While a Brit does the same thing and either way gets punished.

And the Brits would have to transport British civies into the city. Wait, what?

It's an alright idea, but it wouldn't be all that effective in use. And like I was saying, if you try to even it out that Insurgents can't kill a 'Brit' civi, then that civi will just walk around ladeeda, when you could just harshen punishment for killing a civi without getting this complicated.

[RCMoonPie]

So, let's recap. Insurgents can kill a 'Brit' civi that can knife/arrest insurgent civies. All an insurgent has to do is check his map, talk to his squads civi or just point at them long enough and he'll find out which civi is which. And at all this, the Insurgent only gets a problem when he kills a teammate civi, so he can pretty much just shoot at both and only take a penalty for the team civies. While a Brit does the same thing and either way gets punished.

Insurgents killing Brit civie = point deduction/loss of intel points
(Brit civies can not knife/arrest insurgent civies....I changed that in an edit, but dont know where the edit went......sorry)

Who cares what method a Brit or an insurgent uses to check for a friendly or enemy civie.......THATS THE POINT! Situational awareness and checking your fire!

Make it so there is a punishment on both sides for killing civies regardless of team plus the deduction for the TK where applicable.....and subtract or add intel points.

It would be further enhanced if you could only see your squad's tags ONLY. Not sure if that is possible though. But it would encourage people to remain in a squad and also.....make sure they were checking those maps and binos for friendly movements.

And the Brits would have to transport British civies into the city. Wait, what?

No one HAS TO do anything. Its the player's/squad's descision. Do what is beneficial to your team as the game unfolds. Drive them in....drop them off. Spawn at a rally and begin looking for caches. What difference does it make so long as you dont kill the wrong one.

It's an alright idea, but it wouldn't be all that effective in use. And like I was saying, if you try to even it out that Insurgents can't kill a 'Brit' civi, then that civi will just walk around ladeeda, when you could just harshen punishment for killing a civi without getting this complicated.

This really isnt that complicated at all.

[The Dork Lord]

I don't think a realistic intelligence gathering network involving spies would work under BF2 engine or gameplay. I think the current system of civvies works acceptably myself, although I can see the OP's point somewhat.

[Rudd]

I don't think a realistic intelligence gathering network involving spies would work under BF2 engine or gameplay. I think the current system of civvies works acceptably myself, although I can see the OP's point somewhat.

agreed

[RCMoonPie]

I don't think a realistic intelligence gathering network involving spies would work under BF2 engine or gameplay. I think the current system of civvies works acceptably myself, although I can see the OP's point somewhat.

If you saw the "OP's point" at all.....you would know that this isnt about intelligence gathering or spying AT ALL.

Its about forcing both sides to check and double check the civies around them for friendly or enemy fire....and and in turn attempt to keep the civies acting more "civilized" like and less "brave".

[ostupidman]

This still isn't going to help make the use of civies more realistic. They are still going to make themselves human shields, jump on enemy grenades, and run out in front of armor/landies to get smashed. It's not a problem with civies getting shot. It's what they deserve, what they would get if they were in a real combat situation. The simple fact is that in the current form of gameplay it is promoting unrealistic behavior. People who play civies WANT to get shot, they actively try to force the other team to kill them. We have all watched how the main purpose of most civies who play is to get killed, then type in global chat about how stupid the brits are for killing him, then rinsing and repeating.

[RCMoonPie]

This still isn't going to help make the use of civies more realistic. They are still going to make themselves human shields, jump on enemy grenades, and run out in front of armor/landies to get smashed. It's not a problem with civies getting shot. It's what they deserve, what they would get if they were in a real combat situation. The simple fact is that in the current form of gameplay it is promoting unrealistic behavior. People who play civies WANT to get shot, they actively try to force the other team to kill them. We have all watched how the main purpose of most civies who play is to get killed, then type in global chat about how stupid the brits are for killing him, then rinsing and repeating.

I repectfully disagree...
Most folks play....regardless of class.....to see how long they can play without dying. This game is no fun at all for anyone just sitting and looking at the black death screen.
In the year I have been playing, I have yet to see any civies jump on grenades, or just stand in front of vehicles "to get smashed". It may appear this way but that isnt the case.
(let me guess....I didnt see such and such....or I obviously wasnt in this or that server....or whatever......save it.)
The only thing I can agree with in your response was...."The simple fact is that in the current form of gameplay it is promoting unrealistic behavior."

Then you say...."People who play civies WANT to get shot, they actively try to force the other team to kill them."
No they dont.....they just dont play in a manner that protects against it.
The class should be revamped in a way, that civies try harder to avoid Brit contact....period.

Spotting targets for insurgents should get a civie killed......without punishment.....period.

If there is a way....civies should be able to be killed if using binos.
This would force them to be taking cover while doing such activities instead of standing on roof tops or even worse....light-poles.

I would also dercrease the sprint time AND increase the respawn time for civies who are knifed/arrested to 3 minutes or so.....this would curb the behavior of trying to get unrealistically close to the Brit forces.

[ostupidman]

Do you play alot of Al Basrah then MoonPie? That's all I see from civies and hear from them on VOIP. They run out and jump around trying to get shot, run in front of or in the middle of their allies to be shields and force civie kills. I see far far more of that than anything else from them. They don't seem to worry much about the black screen of death. They still get a quick spawn, and know that they have 1) caused that opposing player to increase their spawn time 2) lose intelligence points 3) temporarily remove their ability to request limited kits 4) gotten that player 1 kill closer to 3 civie kills.

Also just to add. I don't dislike your idea. I like the thought of civilian collaborators...(just imagine I spelled it correctly) I just don't think it is cutting to the core of the civilian problem.

[Anderson29]

well the stupidman has a point, and frankly moonpie, adding a british civi class...just isnt gona work unless its a 1 man requestable kit...then maybe. other than that implementing it would be something a stupidman would do...not the one above me but....ya nevermind

[LudacrisKill]

remove civillian full stop

[Sadist_Cain]

WooooSaaaaa Gentlemen...


Love this idea British soldiers do "use" civilians because they have local knowledge on the area and so forth, they also will have closer ties to insurgents (since they're neighbors, Everybody needs good neighbors)

As in real life there's bound to be civis that help out brits and those that favor the insurgents shooting at them

2-3 british civilians wandering around basrah would be kickass. Think of it from the insurgents point of view when you discover there's a spy at work hunting your caches.

Better from the brits point of view, check map and see that lil blue dot but you cant see where your man is, "hold fire friendlies in the area!" I love the thought of actually having some friendlies that look like Iraqis

Open your minds folks, this is a good one

[MAINERROR]

And how would that solve the civie-thing? I mean the insurgents will shoot the guy for sure.

[RCMoonPie]

And how would that solve the civie-thing? I mean the insurgents will shoot the guy for sure.

Is there anyway to remove tags from only civies....both Brit and insurgent?
If all civies looked exactly alike....no tags.....you would have to observe their behavior.....make a descision based on that behavior before firing.

With no tags...you could be firing on a civie that is on your side.
Make the punishment harsher for doing so.

[Cyrax-Sektor]

As far as I know, you can't adjust name tags for a specific kit. However, it takes time for the name tag to appear anyways.

I like this idea. The grappling hook could be handy as well.

[Celestial1]

Insurgents killing Brit civie = point deduction/loss of intel points
(Brit civies can not knife/arrest insurgent civies....I changed that in an edit, but dont know where the edit went......sorry)

Who cares what method a Brit or an insurgent uses to check for a friendly or enemy civie.......THATS THE POINT! Situational awareness and checking your fire!

Make it so there is a punishment on both sides for killing civies regardless of team plus the deduction for the TK where applicable.....and subtract or add intel points.

No one HAS TO do anything. Its the player's/squad's descision. Do what is beneficial to your team as the game unfolds. Drive them in....drop them off. Spawn at a rally and begin looking for caches. What difference does it make so long as you dont kill the wrong one.

It was nice playing with you yesterday. Hate to step on your nuts again, but it's all for trying to get this idea refined.

If insurgents can't kill the Brit civi, that civi can walk about searching for caches, and all that he has to do is tell his squad to pay attention to where he is on the map and to have them stay away from him to avoid TK, as he walks around the city following British leads and insurgent's walking around.

I personally like the idea; but we need to find a way to make it reasonable and make sense: Why would a civilian of the city need transport from a British outpost? Perhaps if the Dev's could make a limited spawn kit to spawn say 3 british-supporting civis at the mosque. They couldn't be killed by either side (British for the ROE and insurgents for killing their own people), but then how would we stop them from searching for caches and giving the British team spot-on information? Or maybe it would be part of the British civis; maybe it would encourage the insurgents sticking to caches and protecting them?

Personally, I think overall civi kills should be given a higher punishment first to curb attacking the civis, then see what kind of twists we can put into insurgency, like this one.

[RCMoonPie]

It was nice playing with you yesterday. Hate to step on your nuts again, but it's all for trying to get this idea refined.

If insurgents can't kill the Brit civi, that civi can walk about searching for caches, and all that he has to do is tell his squad to pay attention to where he is on the map and to have them stay away from him to avoid TK, as he walks around the city following British leads and insurgent's walking around.

Yes! Thats correct. This is how the scenario plays out IRL as well. The insurgency has to contend with civies giving the coalition forces info about the insurgency's whereabouts and movements. The insurgency would have just as big a problem picking out who they can and cant trust.

I personally like the idea; but we need to find a way to make it reasonable and make sense: Why would a civilian of the city need transport from a British outpost? Perhaps if the Dev's could make a limited spawn kit to spawn say 3 british-supporting civis at the mosque. They couldn't be killed by either side (British for the ROE and insurgents for killing their own people), but then how would we stop them from searching for caches and giving the British team spot-on information? Or maybe it would be part of the British civis; maybe it would encourage the insurgents sticking to caches and protecting them?

Those are good points. As for the ride.....do you not think IRL that if obtaining intel meant giving joe average Hadji a lift to a critical area......do you not think they would?

Personally, I think overall civi kills should be given a higher punishment first to curb attacking the civis, then see what kind of twists we can put into insurgency, like this one.

That is the rub. There is the proplem.
The punishment needs to be so severe that folks avoid killing civies.....but on the flip-side of the coin......civies must be placed in a role where they arent so emboldened and brave.

In a nutshell....
The problem is this......the folks that play the civie class, know that the penalty for killing a civie, far outweighs the penalty for acting in a way that gets them killed.

Something NEEDS to be done to make civies want to preserve their life.
Maybe they should be rewarded somehow by staying alive for so many minutes?
Brits punishment should be so severe that they want to avoid killing the civie.....but the civie kill should be equally as severe to make the civie keep his head down and stay off the roofs and light-poles.

[Celestial1]

Those are good points. As for the ride.....do you not think IRL that if obtaining intel meant giving joe average Hadji a lift to a critical area......do you not think they would?

Something NEEDS to be done to make civies want to preserve their life.
Maybe they should be rewarded somehow by staying alive for so many minutes?
Brits punishment should be so severe that they want to avoid killing the civie.....but the civie kill should be equally as severe to make the civie keep his head down and stay off the roofs and light-poles.

Would you interpret that the "British-Supporting" civis would have gone to the British, to get them to help? Because that might make quite a bit of sense, as if he was going to 'lead' them to the cache. Perhaps, the longer that 'British' civi survives, a slow and steady increase of intel points would be in order?

And currently a civi killed by knife (arrested) gives away intel points... Maybe the civi should get a penalty for being killed (non-knife) within a certain range of a normal Insurgent? Like within 5m or 10m of an insurgent they have the respawn time as if they were knived? I don't know exactly what we could do there.

I think that would encourage civis not being so body-shieldish of an insurgent or being on the same rooftop as one. Maybe even the ticket loss/penalty (which would be more severe) would only apply if the civi is out of that 5-10m distance of the insurgent, making actively supporting the Insurgents a fatal offense, while not being obviously active supporting the Insurgents keeps you safe from harm?

If this could be done it could be the next step in making civis a CIVILIAN and not a bodyguard with no gun.

[ostupidman]

Insurgents realistically shouldn't be punished for killing a "british civie". They use fear and the threat of death to the populace, to try and force them not to cooperate. I'm sure we have all heard the stories of informants and collaborators being murdered by insurgents. Their weapon over the people is fear, fear for their lives and those of their family.