Commander Discussion.

[fuzzhead]

Hey Atrovenator, I know exactly how you feel, sometimes when in the CO seat you can take alot of abuse and its usually from regulars on the server, usually from the guys in the large assets who dont give a flying f**k about team wide tactics and just want to rack up a bunch of kills.

Im interested to know Atrovenator, when you have 5-8 squads following your plans and reacting to your orders, do you also feel you would be comfortable moving around the battlefield with them and feel you could be just as effective staying mobile and also giving orders?

[ChiefRyza]

I agree with Atrovenator, being on the ground and actually seeing the situation is so much more helpful than being cooped up and limited to contact reports which may or may not be as large/small as the squad leaders are reporting them to be. Being on the ground I think gives the commander a much more real representation of what is going on. I know I play PR to have fun and the commander simply lacks any if this whatsoever. You don't get to see your glorious area attacks, exactly where your firebases are and most importantly your limited to VOIP comms to verify a situation rather than being there and confirming it yourself.

[Stokes52]

I think Fuzzhead makes a great point when he says that in a good match it is really not feasible for the commander to be out walking around all the time or simply doing recon work. When playing as commander in a good match I almost always have my hands full. Commanding generally means long periods of nothing followed by hectic moments where 2-3 squads are talking at once, people are spotting enemy contacts, calling in support, asking questions, or whatever, all at once.

That said, I disagree that the commander should be forced to stay at the base to do these tasks. There are times in the battle where the commander's eyes should be focused on the map and he should be putting markers, coordinating squads, and giving out valuable intel, BUT there are also times when it is incredibly valuable for the commander to have his own actual eyes on the battlefield. Some people have said a solution to the commander going rambo is to give ticket penalties on his death. I STRONGLY disagree with this for two reasons. Firstly, because I don't want some idiot commander grab the position, run out and get himself killed and suddenly we lose 10 tickets. I should NOT be penalized for some other player's idiocy. Secondly, since when does ticket loss make somebody a better player? Ticket loss for vehicles does NOT make anyone a better APC driver or Helicopter pilot, so why would it make somebody a better commander? I agree with ticket loss for vehicles because they are actual battlefield assets but NOT for commander death. Losing a commander while he respawns is punishment enough. Perhaps give commander a 2-3 minute respawn time instead.

Anyways... I propose a compromise between the school of thought that says the commander needs to be stationary but have more assets and the school of thought that says the commander needs to be more mobile and self reliant.

I propose, first off, to add more useful commander assets, offensive and/or defensive. I really like the idea of keeping the usual 30/45 min JDAM/Arty/Mortar. But, I think we can do better. Why not keep the barrage, but also add a smaller area strike, and then perhaps and even smaller pinpoint strike, perhaps something with the size of an IED or C4, but it would work like artillery or the JDAM and come from the sky, and of course each type would have a different timer. This REALLY makes the commander more valuable and it makes the battlefield immensely more realistic having more frequent occasional off-map strikes coming down. This is a MODERN battlefield after all, and in a MODERN battlefield, LOTS of things are being blown up by artillery, planes, and missiles that originate miles from the actual battlefield. Setting the assets up this way gives commanders more leverage because squad leaders will WANT to get on the commander's good side, because the commander has LOTS of support to give to cooperative squads. Also, aside from offensive assets, I think the commander desperately NEEDS some way of independently gathering battlefield intel aside from actually being in the field himself. I propose giving him, like the artillery, a limited, and perhaps requestable by squad leader asset that allows him to use the vBF2 "satellite view" to actually survey the battlefield with his own eyes, simulating satellite/UAV support that most modern armies use today. This I think, makes up for the complaints of the commander not being able to see whats going on in the field


Secondly, we should allow the commander to have the OPTION of being *somewhat* mobile. I disagree with giving him a command vehicle for two reasons. One, it takes a lot more work to implement it, with modeling, coding, etc. Secondly, the command vehicle takes MORE soldiers away from the battlefield as they drive the CO around, and at worst, it turns the CO position into just another APC driver/gunner, which is NOT what we need. Besides, some maps don't even have vehicles, so what then? Also, I disagree with the "free command" where the commander can use his map any time under any circumstance, because like others have posted, this makes it too easy for the commander to use his power to make him a better sniper, or tank driver, etc.

Here is my suggestion on making the CO mobile, so that he can fulfill the role of both mobile commander and base commander as the battle dictates, and yet still remained balanced in both cases. Lets face it, some battles require a CO in the base calling the shots, but some battles require the CO to be actually in the field surveying the action himself. COs should have the OPTION of leading in either style. So, how do we accomplish this? Well, I like the idea of the commander being able to enter firebases, and this is a quick fix, but I think we can do better. There is one other way that I think would be easy to implement and would be more in line with what people think about when they mean "mobile commander" In the commo rose, give the commander the option to place a "radio" or some other mobile command device. This would replace the "Set Rally Point" option that squad leaders have. Once he has placed this device, he can then use his command map as long as he remains within say, 5-10 meters of this little "Command Rally" he has set down. Also, if there are at least two or more enemies within say, 50m or 100m from the "Command Rally" then it expires and the commander must wait a timer before he can set another one (The same way that Squad Leader Rallies already work). This gives field commanders a big drawback to being in the action and it also ensures commanders can be "in the field" but not actually part of the front line action. Another way to balance field commanders with base commanders is by limiting assets. I am not sure if this is possible, but if it was, here's how I would do it. Assuming the commander has some type of UAV/Satellite view as well as 3 types of artillery, I would put some limits in place. Because the commander is in the field, he doesn't necessarily need the UAV/Satellite view, so this would be unavailable in the field. Also, the large 30 minute JDAM/Artillery strike would be unavailable. He needs to be in the base to provide this type of support. The other two, I am not sure on yet however. Either make both the medium and pinpoint strikes available to the commander, or limit the medium strike to the base and allow just the pinpoint strike. The commander should be able to use *some* firesupport from the field, but he should be more limited than if he was in the base.


In conclusion, I think my suggestions give the commander more options on how he wishes to lead and it provides a compromise between the "stay at the base" and "eyes in the field" commanders and lets each command in their style with the right balance and usefulness applied to both types. Anyways, let me know what you guys think of my proposals. I think these ideas could really work with some time and thought spent on the coding part of it, (I know, no small task... but all for the sake of a better PR!)

[Skodz]

Stop nerfing Commander and give some incentive to play as a Commander ?

Its that easy. Really.

Suggestions;

-Vehicle respawn timer for commander so he can better coordinate troops.
-Ability to look outside atleast when in command post.
-More tool such as weaker but shorter delay artillery + the basic long cooldown air strike.
-A little shorter respawn time for infantry and vehicle when a commander is on duty.
-Some special assets such as aircraft only available with a commander ?
-Commander aproval again for FOB construction.
-No more Rallypoints. To have people relys on FOB and Main base for reinforcement. Not magical bags.
Ok, maybe that have not much to do with CO but I think it would be great

While I agree with people saying Commander should be able to have his eye on the battlefield sometime to really know whats going on, I also agree with the fact we must keep them from fighting for gameplay sake. Stoke have interesting ideas.

So if ragni is correct we could have 4 things right?
I personnaly would like to see this;

Offensive abillity
- Deploy 120 Mortars
- Deploy 155 mm Artillery
- Deploy Tactical airstrike

(pretty much how it is now, but let artillery maybe look and act more devastating than mortars, like shorter time on impact between shells, and larger area/blast and more shells)

Supportive abillity
- Deploy 50m minefield
(Needs to be shoveld)

- Deploy Supply drop
(2 logistic crates with a repair crate, and some extra limited kits ex. instead of 2 HAT's you can get 3 now)

- Deploy Medic station
(small station, where you get healed get ammo, (generates tickets really slowly maybe) and spawn with some light jeeps?)

And how about removal of the radar thing outpost of vbf2 and replace it with stationary or driveable command vehicle?
Searched these up in wikipedia (not 100% if its right)

USMC: LAV-25C2 command vehicle
Chech: BRDM-2 command vehicle
USA: M1130 Stryker command vehicle
RUS: BTR-80K command vehicle
PLA: WZ551 command vehicle
UK: FV105 Sultan command vehicle

Most of these vehicles are allready modelled, and would give the commander a cooler place to sit in

These are some very interesting idea as well. I love the minefield idea

[MrScruff]

Ok so Ive skimmed through to page 2 and had an idea.

Instead of a commander, how about make it a recon soldier? Or something like that.

In a round you always get some random grabbing sniper kits and going to a "recon" squad only to become a single man killing machine.

Slap the name recon or something on the name instead of commander and this guy can grab a special kit only available to this position (i.e. bring the spec ops kit back) and go into the field all sneaky like and update the teams maps and comms with real time spots from his own eyes in the battlefield.

Then if SLs need to use a JDAM or whatever then make it like an auto accept function or something. or requiring 2 SLs to mark the same target to be accepted.

[cyberzomby]

Loads of suggestions here wich is good! I dont like all of them however:

First up: More airstrikes. NO! Please NO! I cant tell you many times I was working nicely together in vBF2 and than an airstrikes pops up on the just greyed out flag to wipe us all out. Instead of teamwork or skill, it will take a laze, a click of a button to deal with something.

Satelite view: Same here. Instead of relying on people to put up communications with the CO and there team, you rely on an eye in the sky. It sucks to play as an enemy trying to sneak around the firebase, only to realise you just have been spotted by....... GOD.

I do like the enter a firebase to command tho! Would it be code'able to put some extra assets down when a CO is IN the firebase? Like a TOW launcher and a minefield? Make the base a bit stronger when the CO is in/near.

Deployable minefield: Love this as well. A nice touch of area negating and teamwork.

Supply-drop is a nice touch as well I'd say. Some extra assets from the CO.

Respawn times: That would be handy as well. If the CO can check 'm out in his booth.


On the mobile making: I still dont see why you would need to A: Check out a situation for yourself, B: Think SL's listen better to the ICON on there screen, when the source of the ICON is closer instead of in the booth. Personaly, to me, and the guys I play with, this does not help at all. If I'm taking orders from a CO, im not taking them any better if the dude was behind me. Same with the dudes that I give orders to when (more like IF) I'm a CO.

Eyes on the ground and looking for yourself: this just shows that you dont thrust the dudes giving you contact reports. I still think it endangeres the team more than it helps it. What if your out there and one of those situations arrises where COM's start chattering and hell breaks lose over a point. Now you need to rush back to the CP to help guide the situation. Because you have more powers in the CP. Even better: IF you end up dead, and a situation pops up, all you can do is all chat all the squads, killing there inter-squad coms, to help guide the situation.

I really think its a bad thing to have a CO who is moving around on the field. Much to risky. Does not offer a real advantage over staying in the CP, if you look at the things he is doing. Let's take the UKWF story for example. Do you guys really believe they would listen to the CO if he was standing next to him? No, because they had there own plans made up. If a SL isnt listening when ure in the CP, he wont listen to you when you'r next to him.

What the CO needs is either good server admins who resign SL's who arent listening, or a kick SL ability to prove his point that he indeed is: the higher up.

[DrugKoala]

Lately, I've been commanding a lot. I find it really interesting and fun, and also, there's that feeling when you have 4 squads under command and a lot of responsibility is on you. I just love it.

But...

I find sometimes myself stuck with 1.5 squads, and 5 support squads (wannabe snipers/helo trans/apc). All I could do is hope those squads on ground will hold out, and that other guys will at least respond to distress calls.
As a commander I would really appreciate anything that would give me a bit more things with which I would participate more in the battle. Some airstrikes, deployable mortars, on map howitzers, anything...

Every time I try to command somewhere, I get stomachaches. Commie position should be worked out a lot more.

[PepsiMachine]

I really like the idea of having a mobile commander lose some of the assets that he would have if he were in the command post. Here's my idea on implementation:

Add in supply crate drops for the commander ability, along with the suggested smaller strikes.

The commander can move out of his command post, but be dedicated more to logistics and only have the abilities that are directly on map: marking, giving orders, communicating with squads, etc. If he could command from a supply truck, he would 1)be less bored 2)avoid losing manpower when someone needs supplies and 3)cut down on a bunch of logistics trucks being left out in the field. Maybe even punish the commander death by delaying the asset timers. A laptop model would be nice, too.

If the commander is in his command post, he gains off-map abilities. From his command post only, he could call in area attacks, the smaller strikes, supply crates, etc to simulate him having to do these things with superiors and/or coordination with off-map assets.

Basically, the framework for the commander is there in PR .86, but for players to step up and command, he needs to be given more power. Sitting in a CP for two hours receiving contact reports and placing markers, with the occasional JDAM call does not appeal to 90% of PR players. Or we would see more commanders.

[cyberzomby]

I find sometimes myself stuck with 1.5 squads, and 5 support squads (wannabe snipers/helo trans/apc). All I could do is hope those squads on ground will hold out, and that other guys will at least respond to distress calls.

This was especially true yesterday on Kashan XD! But its always the case on Kashan. I do love that you almost always go CO! I should do it as well.

But yea, this is an issue as well. You usually got 2/3 infantry squads and 2/3 assets squads that many times, seem to have a mind of there own. So a SL kick button could help here I'd say.

EDIT: Ofcourse this can and will be abused... So what to do

[Robert-The-Bruce]

for me the biggest problem when commanding this:

- squads doing their own thing without listening to anything and consequently not giving any (helpful) feedback either ofc

So I think what is needed is some kind of tool to smite the unbelievers in your abilities!

For example:

-demoting squadleaders

-restricting assets to the squads that you assign them to (maybe even limited kits such as H-AT, sniper or combat engineer)

-denying uncooperative squads any limited kits of any kind(with medic and SL beeing limited this is especially hurtful)


Imo what is needed is not more and more raining fire abilities but rather something to make the team obey your orders!(In principle all you need is a willing community and you wouldn't need any extra tools but sadly players are hardcoded to a great deal and that cannot be overridden with personality of the commander alone)

edit: I can understand the requests for having a mobile commander bc just having your SLs giving you reports often doesn't give you a clear enough picture. This is something I like from Arma 2 where the commander can actively look at what is happening while still retaining the ability to direct his troops effectively.

[cyberzomby]

for me the biggest problem when commanding this:

- squads doing their own thing without listening to anything and consequently not giving any (helpful) feedback either ofc

So I think what is needed is some kind of tool to smite the unbelievers in your abilities!

For example:

-demoting squadleaders

-restricting assets to the squads that you assign them to (maybe even limited kits such as H-AT, sniper or combat engineer)

-denying uncooperative squads any limited kits of any kind(with medic and SL beeing limited this is especially hurtful)


Imo what is needed is not more and more raining fire abilities but rather something to make the team obey your orders!(In principle all you need is a willing community and you wouldn't need any extra tools but sadly players are hardcoded to a great deal and that cannot be overridden with personality of the commander alone)

Heeeereeee heeereeee! That is what Im talking about! Excellent man If you got a guarantee that every squads listens, or at least the tools to deny them all the goody's or demote until there is a SL who listens, CO'ing is a lot of fun! even within the booth, with an arty every 30 minutes.

[fuzzhead]

Commander Ideas I like:

- Stokes idea of a commander rallypoint that gives him access to his map screen, but it can be destroyed by enemy same as squad rallypoints.

- firebase entereable for commander to use map screen at.

- Roberts idea of including a way to demote uncooperative/smacktard squadleaders

- Roberts idea of restricting assets to the squads that you assign them to (maybe even limited kits such as H-AT, sniper or combat engineer)

- Roberts idea of denying uncooperative squads limited kits.

- CO has choice of what area attack to send, but has a set limit instead of a timer. For example, at start of mission CO has 3 JDAMS, 150 artillery rounds and 250 mortar rounds. He can launch all these whenever he wants but they do not respawn and once hes out of them, its out for the whole round. Think this would be cool and give CO more options, but like I mentioned above it would require a huge time investment to get working and it might not even be feasible.

- slight alteration of spawn times for vehicles / players. should only be a second or two but could definitely turn players more in favor of having and keeping a CO, instead of just having him sign up, drop the jdam then take off, which puts everyone at a disadvantage.


Commander Ideas I DONT like:

- commander deployed supply drops: thought these were cheesy vanilla leftovers when we had them in PR. How often is a C130 going to drop ammo for ONE specific infantry squad in the middle of combat? maybe in the movies or for SEAL's, but were talking conventional warfare here, supplies would be dropped at base or helicopter bringing them in, or in a largescale conflict with heavy threat of anti-air, you will have supplies brought the old fashioned way, by truck. On top of the realism aspect, the current way of bringing supplies actually encourages more teamwork and a supply chain, and I think giving CO the supply drop back would just kill that. Plus, you would have to have it on 30 second timer (the timer is hardcoded) so its very hard to edit a workable solution for this that is not super spammy. Plus I think they always looked strange falling from the sky, especially when they dont have parachutes and when both enemy and friendly are dropping supplies right in the same area, that just looks odd and unrealistic, what are the freakin 2 pilots waving hello and slapping high fives as they drop their respective teams ammo and pass by each other in the sky???

- faster jdams/artillery/mortars: I already think these are a bit too fast especially the mortars, dont think this is the route that should be taken, commander should not be considered a GOD, and I never liked weapons that had NO counter and cannot be stopped (ie the off map weapons). Its much better when the weapons are manned by human players and have human error, and require some more communication and coordination than just a quick laze and the CO dropping the bomb to kill everything.

- A commander deployable minefield. Just dont think it suits the CO.

[GDICommand]

I really like the idea of having a mobile commander lose some of the assets that he would have if he were in the command post. Here's my idea on implementation:
The commander can move out of his command post, but be dedicated more to logistics and only have the abilities that are directly on map: marking, giving orders, communicating with squads, etc. If he could command from a supply truck, he would 1)be less bored

...Basically, the framework for the commander is there in PR .86, but for players to step up and command, he needs to be given more power. Sitting in a CP for two hours receiving contact reports and placing markers, with the occasional JDAM call does not appeal to 90% of PR players. Or we would see more commanders.

BEAUTIFUL!!

I'm glad somebody said it before I did.

Commander isn't fun to play...that's the core of the conversation. Not to make him better, but to give people incentive to play as the commander. you guys are CONSTANTLY focusing on the wrong points

Also, I still stand by my idea to make the "CO" a squad leader, and the "squads" will be fireteams with 4 members each. eliminate the dynamic map, make it static. The current idea of a commander for 16 people is unrealistic. He is a squad leader for 16 people, and a plt commander for a 64 player match (at MAX). This is the one unrealistic thing you could change to make the "CO" more fun to play. because remember, by not making him a company commander, now he has less power (i.e. losing dynamic maps, and fireteam members losing maps altogether. which is all I can think of right now, but: use your imagination, obviously lots of other things will be made more enjoyable for commander because of this. actually, I think the map will solve a lot of this MOBILE/NO MOBILE!! discussion along with penalty of some sort for "CO" dying)



I just have one comment besides that for arjan:

USMC: LAV-25C2 command vehicle

yea right man....more like a hmmwv

[fuzzhead]

Commander isn't fun to play...that's the core of the conversation

well I dont think thats fair to say... theres definitely a number of players who love playing CO as is currently, although the number is far below what would be nice to have.

I think CO needs more incentives yes, but it needs to be incentives putting the CO in the right direction instead of forcing someone to sit in the position when he doesnt really want to (like before) or having a CO but hes not making organizing and coordinating the team his first priority and instead is using the advantages of the position for personal gain.

[arjan]

I just have one comment besides that for arjan:

yea right man....more like a hmmwv

The USMC does use the LAV25 and some other vehicles as a command vehicle and a humvee is to easy to kill

[GDICommand]

The USMC does use the LAV25 and some other vehicles as a command vehicle and a humvee is to easy to kill

lol, no brother, they dont

LAV-25 is the LAV with the 25mm cannon...that's why it's called LAV-25...it's not a command vehicle m8
lav: yes...lav command vehicle: not in any unit I'm familiar with. I know I've seen them...but traditionally, it would be a hmmwv deployed to the rear of everyone, or some building set up as a CP

EDIT: wait a second, LAV command vehicle goes out with LAR...so unless it's a map with a large LAV presence, then I would say no

[Skodz]

The whole "lets have the commander punish uncooperative squads" is an interesting idea but then, you would need something to punish bad commander abusing their power otherwise I can see that becoming very annoying if a bad Commander get the role and start being an *** or just can't command for ****.

[Robert-The-Bruce]

you could always start a mutiny...