Commander Discussion.

[Stokes52]

I wanted to start a discussion about the current roles of the commander and possible ways that this important battlefield position can be made more appealing and fun for both the commander and squad leaders. The commander has an interesting role in PR, it can be either incredibly fun, incredibly boring, incredibly useful, or incredibly useless, or anything in between. I, however, am convinced that with a little thought it can be made even better and even more fun.

As it is now, the commander sits in a little box at the main base and must rely solely on the information, (or misinformation) of his Squad Leaders. A good commander, (with good intel from his SLs), can truly swing the balance on the battlefield, especially when he is organizing the efforts of ground spotters and Close Air Support. Especially on big maps, like Kashan Desert, commanders really can be the difference between victory and defeat, as a good commander can be calling out enemy tank sightings for CAS, place markers where AA has been spotted for friendly tanks to clear out, and to organize infantry and transportation for coordinated assaults on the enemy. But, at the same time, the commander position, if not used well, or if he is not getting continuous intel from his SLs can quickly become useless and just mean one less rifle in the field.

As anyone who has played as or with a commander knows, the commander position can become really boring and/or useless if the squad leaders are not cooperative or forget to call out and update contacts. Squad Leaders often have enough on their mind and will often forget to update the commander on enemy movements, or they will neglect to mark enemy movements at all. If this pattern continues, eventually players will simply ignore the commander's marks (because they are always out of date), making the commander position pretty useless.


So, with that in mind, what is everyone's opinions on the commander position, and can anything be done design-wise by the developers, (or players) to make the commander position more fun and useful?

Here are some of my suggestions:

Make the commander position mobile - Allow him to command from more areas than just his "Command hut". He should be able to command from a position that allows him to actually oversee the battle. If not "free command" where he can command from anywhere, what about making a type of "command bunker" available at firebases that the commander can use to be a little closer to the action as he calls targets and such? Bottom line, in my opinion, the commander should have the flexibility to either lead from the base or from the front, right among his squad leaders at his choice. Since realism is the backbone of PR, "is this realistic" you ask? I say yes, since we are dealing with around 30 men on average, it would make sense that the "commander" would be "with" his men in the field.

Give the commander more timed battlefield assets (This is the one I am most curious about what people think) - The commander needs more toys. As one idea, instead of the unrealistic UAV overflight that the original battlefield 2 has which highlighted the enemy as little dots, perhaps commanders could make use of Battlefield 2's ultra-zoom "Satellite view". Rather than allowing the commander to use this whenever he wants, perhaps it could be put on a timer, like artillery, and if necessary, even put in the squad leader's binocular "request" menu. Imagine, every 15 minutes or so, the commander could use the "Satellite view" to zoom in on a portion of the battlefield for 60 seconds or so to mark targets and basically do, in a more realistic way, what modern UAVs do, by giving battlefield commanders an overhead view of the battlefield.

Anyways, what are your thoughts? Are there any ways the developers can improve the incredibly underrated, yet incredibly useful commander position to make it more fun, appealing, and useful to everyone who plays PR?

[AppyUntinx]

Make the commander position mobile : I wish they would do that and you will et some guys on here that will say a commander stays in the hut (command centre) in real life but they dont most go in the line of fire and check the progress them selfs.

[BlackwaterSaxon]

Make the commander position mobile : I wish they would do that and you will et some guys on here that will say a commander stays in the hut (command centre) in real life but they dont most go in the line of fire and check the progress them selfs.

Well, most actually....don't.

Anyway, making commanders mobile would be a good idea, it's still a game after all and being the commander shouldn't feel like punishment.

[PLODDITHANLEY]

I agree, but after playing RRT Al basrah with EVERYONE on mumble the only advantages of a CO are:
Taking a bit of work from the overstressed SLs (Squad voip, SL Mumble is quite enough).
CO's Assets.
This of course assumes the CO is experienced and knows what he is doing.

After each Land Rover, with tank support, cache raid we all went back to main to rearm/repair and there all the SLs get together close by on Mumble to work out what the plan is for the next one whilst all the SM soldiers have to shut up!
Mumble represents another nail in the coffin for the CO...but its worth it!

[Stokes52]

I agree, but after playing RRT Al basrah with EVERYONE on mumble the only advantages of a CO are:
Taking a bit of work from the overstressed SLs (Squad voip, SL Mumble is quite enough).
CO's Assets.
This of course assumes the CO is experienced and knows what he is doing.

After each Land Rover, with tank support, cache raid we all went back to main to rearm/repair and there all the SLs get together close by on Mumble to work out what the plan is for the next one whilst all the SM soldiers have to shut up!
Mumble represents another nail in the coffin for the CO...but its worth it!

Mumble definitely eliminates the need for the CO its in current form, and I think mumble makes more sense in my opinion. But, beyond that, what can be done to make the commander itself more useful, in the current state of the game?

[Rudd]

Taking a bit of work from the overstressed SLs (Squad voip, SL Mumble is quite enough).

pretty much

As commander I find myself, signing up, droping an air attack, updating contact reports, resigning, grabbing a logistic truck and doing drops for 30mins or so, resigning up, rinse and repeat.

The only way the CO position could be made more useful without buggering up the game is to have more, but smaller area strikes, so you could have one big strike, like now...or lots of little strikes spread out. I think a commander would like to continually use 2 Arty strikes, and keep 1 in reserve.

Mumble does not quite destroy the CO, since alot of people do not have a concept of radio coms. To keep radio coms clear the commander can be used if the message isn't necessarily urgent.

Really, I think that radio should be removed so that the commander is made more important, I prefer talking to SLs in as if I was using my actual voice anyway, keeps the squads within visual contact of eachother.

[OldGoat5]

i like the idea of the uav spotting, also of the mobile commander. those would work well even with mumble, since the commander is still a general like position and...commands...so if everyone listens to a good commander its still a useful role.

[wookimonsta]

well, one of the huge advantages of having a commander, is that he can take one squads marker, and drop another squads marker on top.
example is a squad dropping a marker on an enemy fb, and the commander drops a CAS squads marker on top of it, giving the CAS a 3D target on the map that they can aim for

[Stokes52]

well, one of the huge advantages of having a commander, is that he can take one squads marker, and drop another squads marker on top.
example is a squad dropping a marker on an enemy fb, and the commander drops a CAS squads marker on top of it, giving the CAS a 3D target on the map that they can aim for

Absolutely, thats where the commander position really shines, and why on big maps with air support the commander is invaluable. That ability alone helps win battles on Kashan and other big maps. But, I'd like to see something where the commander has the option of being more mobile, especially for smaller infantry maps and such. I imagine the commander setting up somewhere and being able to actually survey the battlefield through his binoculars, then go to the command screen and update markers as necessary. Also, he would be receiving intel and such from his Squad Leaders like normal on top of his ability to be in the field.

Perhaps to balance it out, he can go into the field and do his duties and use the command map, but he can only use Artillery and the proposed UAV asset while he is physically at the base inside the command center. Also, another possible limitation is that the commander might have to be within 100m of a friendly Firebase or something to use the command map, so that he can't, for example, be airdropped to some random position behind enemy lines, but he actually has to command from a friendly "secured" area, aka the FOB.

[flem615]

I see the biggest problem with the commander is that, he has no real power. He can say "Sq 4 move to F4kp6 and set up." but Sq 4 doesnt have to. as the commander will never be able to force squads to do exactly what he says, and the team cannot be limited in abilities because they dont have a commander (placing an FOB), i dont think the problem will be fixed. if you have a committed team with a good commander, then he is a great thing to have though. but on public servers that have little organization, hes basically useless

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

What would make commander more attractive? Let's see..

1. Commander rank and his mobility
There are at most 32 players per side at one time. 32 soldiers are equal to small sized platoon... so commander is not some kind of a general, he is a platoon leader (Lieutenant? Sergeant?), and he can follow his troops, and doesn't have to stand in "the box".... at least that's my own little theory

2. More Commander assets and diversity
Like Rudd already mentioned, an additional weaker and smaller area attack would be useful. Light mortar barrage, single pin point strike with artillery guided ammunition or missile, etc... or even something better, for all those factions who don't care about Geneva convention we could have cluster bomb strike, napalm strike or scud strike with chemical warhead (all of this should be doable with bf2 engine).

But, are we limited only to "attacks?" What about other things?... maybe a "less direct" action? Artillery smoke screen, supply parachute drop near friendly flag, time limited (expiring) paradrop spawn point over the friendly flag, air deployed self deactivated (expiring) mine fields, etc... just couple ideas.

Of course, only some of them would be available on maps... like 1 strong attack, 1 weak attack and 1 (or 2) support actions.
Btw, how many commander assets like JDAM can be put on the commander hud? 4, right? I mean...we've had 4 assets in bf2: vehicle drop, supply drop, uav and artillery.

Asymmetrical balance for commander assets would be pretty badass!

(...Yes, I was a huge fan of CnC Generals )

[job86]

I think there should be incentives to follow and work with the commander and disincentives to refuse to take orders.
A ability for the commander to restrict the rarest kits for some squads would be nice. If the team has a snipersquad, welll then the commander could restrict the rest of the team from using sniperrifles. Same goes for HATs, pilotkits ect. If a squad's just goofing off with valuable assets then the commander should have the ability to take away all but the most common limited kits from the squad.

I also believe that if the maps where less efficient for squadmembers and squadleaders, the need to check with the commander for friendly movements and locations would be greater.

[HunterMed]

What would make commander more attractive? Let's see..

2. More Commander assets and diversity
Like Rudd already mentioned, an additional weaker and smaller area attack would be useful. Light mortar barrage, single pin point strike with artillery guided ammunition or missile, etc... or even something better, for all those factions who don't care about Geneva convention we could have cluster bomb strike, napalm strike or scud strike with chemical warhead (all of this should be doable with bf2 engine).

But, are we limited only to "attacks?" What about other things?... maybe a "less direct" action? Artillery smoke screen, supply parachute drop near friendly flag, time limited (expiring) paradrop spawn point over the friendly flag, air deployed self deactivated (expiring) mine fields, etc... just couple ideas.

Of course, only some of them would be available on maps... like 1 strong attack, 1 weak attack and 1 (or 2) support actions.
Btw, how many commander assets like JDAM can be put on the commander hud? 4, right? I mean...we've had 4 assets in bf2: vehicle drop, supply drop, uav and artillery.

Asymmetrical balance for commander assets would be pretty badass!

(...Yes, I was a huge fan of CnC Generals )

I agree.

Some new CO assets would be fine and would probably attract also "new" /newbie commanders to the CO post. (Which is good, imo)

Currently I think there are only COs who already played CO before because of their general attitude (they like playing CO no matter what assets etc are ingame).
But very few players that just try the CO and like it and keep playing it after their first tryouts.

Such new "toys" like you describe could attract more new CO and maybe "bind" them to the CO seat so we, this community, has more commanders generally.

Although such new assets should be implemented very carefully that we dont see a simply spam of such things.

I really like the idea of smoke barrage, this would implement a real cool tactical asset to the team and CO.

[arjan]

So if ragni is correct we could have 4 things right?
I personnaly would like to see this;

Offensive abillity
- Deploy 120 Mortars
- Deploy 155 mm Artillery
- Deploy Tactical airstrike

(pretty much how it is now, but let artillery maybe look and act more devastating than mortars, like shorter time on impact between shells, and larger area/blast and more shells)

Supportive abillity
- Deploy 50m minefield
(Needs to be shoveld)

- Deploy Supply drop
(2 logistic crates with a repair crate, and some extra limited kits ex. instead of 2 HAT's you can get 3 now)

- Deploy Medic station
(small station, where you get healed get ammo, (generates tickets really slowly maybe) and spawn with some light jeeps?)

And how about removal of the radar thing outpost of vbf2 and replace it with stationary or driveable command vehicle?
Searched these up in wikipedia (not 100% if its right)

USMC: LAV-25C2 command vehicle
Chech: BRDM-2 command vehicle
USA: M1130 Stryker command vehicle
RUS: BTR-80K command vehicle
PLA: WZ551 command vehicle
UK: FV105 Sultan command vehicle

Most of these vehicles are allready modelled, and would give the commander a cooler place to sit in

[Rudd]

USMC: LAV-25C2 command vehicle
Chech: BRDM-2 command vehicle
USA: M1130 Stryker command vehicle
RUS: BTR-80K command vehicle
PLA: WZ551 command vehicle
UK: FV105 Sultan command vehicle

just retexture the current vehicles with some sort of marking that identifys it as the commander vehicle.

Might as well make him a FAC or something.

I really don't think the static box is worth it anymore, having commanded myself quite a bit.

He shouldn't be a commander anymore, he should be a FAC or a scout imo. Squad leaders on the best servers all seem to be using 3rd party coms anyway.

- Deploy Medic station
(small station, where you get healed get ammo, (generates tickets really slowly maybe) and spawn with some light jeeps?)

just no, current medic system is very forgiving, generating tickets makes rounds last too long, and FBs spawning vehicles were removed so why would it be put back?

- Deploy Supply drop
(2 logistic crates with a repair crate, and some extra limited kits ex. instead of 2 HAT's you can get 3 now)

erm....Logistic trucks and choppers any1?

[arjan]

just no, current medic system is very forgiving, generating tickets makes rounds last too long, and FBs spawning vehicles were removed so why would it be put back?

Yeah, maybe youre rigt about the tickets.
Well i would like to see more light vehicles in PR, i think the only map that shows nicely how much light vehicles are used in real life are Karbala (great map) and al basrah, thats only insurgency

And with the medic station, it wouldnt generate vehicles like back in 0.6/7 like every 10 minutes a vehicle.
I would like to see a medic station for the commander where you can heal and where 2 pair of light jeeps spawn just for transport, like unarmed humvees and landie's or unarmed humvee and trans truck. and they wouldnt respawn, or they would but after 30 minutes or so (thats long enough, and not to much assets on the battlefield)


erm....Logistic trucks and choppers any1?
Could serve as a backup option as soon trucks or choppers are down or its not possible to drive a truck or helicopter in or just behind enemy lines?

in red...

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

Supportive abillity
- Deploy 50m minefield
(Needs to be shoveld)

Actually I was thinking about something easier to make and code... a minefield deployable by "invisible plane", just like JDAM. You can hear an airplane comming and then 15-20 mines just spawn high in the sky and fall freely to the ground and scattering after impact just like current handheld AT mine thrown from the heli

- Deploy Supply drop
(2 logistic crates with a repair crate, and some extra limited kits ex. instead of 2 HAT's you can get 3 now)

I guess it would be too much... and could lead to exploits. One supply crate is enough

- Deploy Medic station
(small station, where you get healed get ammo, (generates tickets really slowly maybe) and spawn with some light jeeps?)

This is madness... thiz iz zparta!!1
Interesting idea but a little bit "over the top"

Those commander assets must be an addition for the commander role, and can't too powerful to prevent exploits or making other assets already in game useless

[chuckMFd]

Change the commander position to Captain then make a new limited kit; call it radioman. Make using offensive captain assets a three man function. Squad leader needs his radioman within 5 meters to connect communications with the captain. Squad leader spots the target, radioman calls in target, Captain accepts or denies.

Make Forward Outposts the determing factor for the arty timer; more outposts less time to wait for arty.

Make a limited Captain kit with special radio and special GPS. Arm him with somthing like a pistol so he doesnt get to cocky and then just the usual 3 field dressings and some smokes.

[Cheesygoodness]

Those commander assets must be an addition for the commander role, and can't too powerful to prevent exploits or making other assets already in game useless

Just a small laughable and ironic point on that little bit... at least to me anyway.

Has not the other assets already added to the game nearly rendered the commander useless? Thus the whole point of this discussion?

Personally? You could do away with it and I'd probably not notice it.

As people have said repeatedly. There are 32 players on a server at a time. Due to that limitation and the evolution and incorporation of Ventrilo, Teamspeak, and Mumble... Its 'benefits' far from outweigh the lose of firepower.

How many rounds have I been the only squad that even listens to a single word the commander says? Countless. Let me ask you an honest question. How many of you actually know that the USMC get a JDAM on Muttrah??? I found out for the first time about a week or so ago. That's how often the 'area attacks' are used around me.

Ways to fix it without compromising the direction PR seems to be going? Your guess is as good as mine. Best thing I can see is that 'Scenario' gamemode I read about a while ago. Make the commander decide -what- assets are used. Let him choose to spend tickets on an T90 and three IFVs while the US commander deploys two TOW humvee's and a Cobra.

Giving the commander the option to drop Artillery, Mortars, OR a JDAM would be nice. 20 minutes for Mortars, 40 for Artillerys and a JDAM hour timer. But your still wasting a boot on the ground for nearly 85-90% of the game.

[ChiefRyza]

I have to make a very strong personal input to this thread, because over time I just think the current state of the commander role is bringing the game downwards - especially in public server play. For over a year now, all I have heard is that the commander role is fine as it is and nothing needs to change. I agree with pretty much everything the mod has done as I have adapted over time. This however, is completely different.

The commander in 0.7 and 0.75 had such an important role and could control the team and give and take assets (in the form of firebases). However, after cooping him up in a command post I have literally seen maybe 10 or 20 commanders in the past 1000+ games I have played. Nobody who goes commander ever stays commander. It's just not feasible to have this role in such a state as it is now.

As other people have suggested, why not move the Commander to more of a realistic position like a Lieutenant, controlling a platoon sized group of infantry? He should be in the field but should have a large penalty for being stupid and dying.

Simply, give the commander a new requestable kit, a Lieutenant/Field Officer kit. This would hold the commander's GPS panel, but he would also be lightly armed - more so for self defence, like a crewman. Have the commander call in artillery strikes and mortars from viewing distance or 'radio distance' within another squads range. Make these strikes more frequent than they are now (cut it down to every 10 minutes) and Commanders (or Lieutenants, a much more suitable role name) have the ability to call these in only if they are in a squads vicinity. Another key element to a commander's strength was once the ability to request and accept firebase build-orders - this small but important feature found the commander almost a necessity in previous versions whereas now people take the commander as a joke.

I love this game, and I support the DEV team all the way and stick up for many of your decisions but the current commander role is something I have never and will never agree on.