APCs used to have that blowback effect on their cannons in PR.... it had the bad side effect of moving TANKS an undesireable distance hehe
might be tweakable though, good to look into.
About the main topic:
Attack Helicopters.
I agree much could be done with the attack helicopters to make them feel more realistic and get used more like real life. But we got to keep in mind that the maps are only 4km. RL attack heli in a conventional warfare (which has never happened before afaik where both opposing militaries had roughly the same tech) would probably be somewhere at its MINIMUM engagement range of 4km (ie the entire map)
however firing from mainbase to mainbase on a map and destroying all assets on the battlefield within 1 minute of round start wouldnt be too interesting now would it
. If we had 24km sq maps and 200 players per team, it would be different but not yet, so we have to make some compromises to attack aircraft capabilities in order to maintain the scale of the battlefield. Trust me, Im all for realism when it comes to all the vehicles and their RL capabilities, but keeping the current scale limitations of BF2 engine in mind is vital to making the current aircraft behave realistically.
One thing I think people are taking too far in this thread though is to say that the current attack helicopters in PR v0.87 are "broken"..... umm wtf??? Not sure of any other mods out there that have the same capabilities of PR's attack helicopters (or maps to use these capabilities). Saying they are "broken" is a bit weird I think. Limited capability or poorly equipped maybe, but "Broken" is an exagerrated statement.
fuzzhead as a pilot?!? wtf
Last 3 times I've flown in an attack helicopter in v0.87, the helicopter was never shot down and took AA missle impacts and each time made our way back to the airfield to tell the tale. This was muttrah city (tiny map for attack heli mind you), Kashan Desert and Qinling. At times where we took alot of fire and lived, I felt like I was TOO armored sometimes, esp against AA rockets..... keep in mind I dont fly as often as other roles in PR, usually because there is a line up of pilots waiting to take such assets and prompty crash them in the side of mountain/building and blame lag
Thats not to say I dont enjoy it, its extremely enjoyable, challenging and requires a certain finesse and timing thats unique from all the other roles in PR. I would love to fly CAS more often, but usually on the servers I visit I see less desireables end up in the air assets on asset heavy maps, leaving a big need for infantry squad leaders, but such is life of online game public servers.
I'm definitely no expert pilot, I fly with mouse and keyboard and have prety limited experience, but can usually keep a heli in the air for a 2 hour round if I plan ahead of time, and have also seen other half decent pilots do the same... if the current system was "broken" this would simply not be possible or damn near impossible? Again not saying major improvements are not needed; but saying "broken" I think discredits the effort of what has already been done and certainly demotivates any potential improvements being made, whats the point if it will all be constantly discredited and considered a failure?
fuzz's CAS tactics 101
I think alot of the current issues can be lessened by the players behavior themselves, and how they pilot such vital pieces of kit. IMO a key thing that most pilots miss the concept of is:
Timing. Alot of the PR CAS pilots I've seen seem to get into the seat, and immediately take off without checking a map or having any plan. This will get you killed as an infantry squad or an armor squad real fast, and just because your in an air asset does not make your fate any different. Actually, being in the attack helicopter immediately makes you a higher threat target than the other roles and therefore makes planning a more vital step towards your survival.... in fact your one of the highest threats in game, there is no higher target value on the battlefield than attack aircraft. If you fly in uncertain territory just because you got nothing better to do, then ya, getting shot down is prety much an inevitability with the current system, which i think is fine. If you get bored easily, then flying in PR will probably be a disappointment for you as youll spend most of your time on the ground, waiting for your aircraft to respawn.
Being a pilot in PR, I like to think 3 or 4 steps ahead. Always have the safe airspace in mind when flying. Always operate with a FAC (Forward Air Controller) within your squad or with a 3rd party voice program such as mumble/ts/vent. Always be ready with your next move, keep in mind high threat areas and dangerous areas and especially when ground forces spot AA or enemy helicopters/jets. Always use flares in high AA threat areas. If a target is called in an area where enemy AA is present, you have to proceed with extreme caution, and its usually best to avoid flying in the area unless you have a very precise position of the AA and its disposition. I dont think this is an unfair concept, AA is the counter to an attack aircraft, and manning that AA is definitely not as "fun" as flying, so your already at an advantage just sitting in the seat as the AA guy is probably much more likely to get "bored" first
A tactic that worked well for me in the past, is to patrol and observe in friendly safe airspace, observing your surroundings while your FAC is observing friendly unit movements as well as scouting potential high threats to the current team objective and communicating with the leadership of your team. Key is TEAM objective. You are a support unit, where the majority of your infantry are at is where you'll more than likely need the most support. When a high threat target to your infantry is identified and your cleared hot, move to engage the targets with extreme prejudice and speed, and then gtfo.... works like a charm. This helps the team immensely when they need it most and you dont lose your aircraft in the process. If your not communicating with the team and just searching for targets at random, sure you may stumble on enemy convoys that are unprepared to deal with you, but you are also putting your aircraft at considerable risk, and when the targets may not be threatening your team at that time. Sometimes its best to simply observe the enemy and let him move unhindered until you observe a moment where he appears vulnerable, and this is the time to strike!
A little word on a popular tactic with PR Pilots:
Pre-emptive strikes
Pre-emptive strikes on enemy targets is very popular with PR pilots, they want to be the first to spot the enemy targets and be the judge, jury and executioner on the target - the ultimate hunter-killer. Although effective (in both RL and PR), I think this is a tactic best used AFTER you have won territorial supremacy and your ground forces are on the up-stroke of a succesful assault. If you chose to pre-emptively attack enemy targets at your discretion (and not with the guidance of a commander), your putting considerable risk to your aircraft needlessly and for targets, that for as much as you know, are not priority threats to your team objective at the moment. If you lose your aircraft at a time like this, then you will not be present for when these threats DO become high priority targets for your team, and you will have failed to serve the purpose of your role: close air
SUPPORT. And that is my point about Timing: most pilots dont get it, they want to hit targets hard and fast and immediately, they do not want to wait for their team to gain territorial surpremacy, and thus are risking the entire operation on gambling with their valuable/useful vehicle with luck that the enemy is not prepared for their pre-emptive strikes.
Precision Air-delivered Death: A Psychological-Warfare Advantage
A big factor in PR rounds that many players may not think about but I believe is a definite big factor to victory on large operations like kashan and qinling is the psychological effect that air power has on the enemy. To suddenly die and not know where it came from, this is a big effect on morale... to know an enemy is out there that you cannot see or (seemingly) kill.... this will effect the enemies tactics and plans. Just by keeping your attack aircraft in the air and ready to strike at a moments notice, you are striking a blow to the enemies morale and psychological outlook on the battle. Everyone knows the feeling when your teams armor/deployable assets are being strategically picked off, and your team begins requesting in chat "Is the enemy havok/cobra down?!?!" "where is the enemy heli?!". On the flip side, the relief of knowing the enemy air power is out of commision for xx minutes will usually give your team/commander enough confidence to launch a major offensive in qinling but especially kashan and muttrah, as you know you can advance deep into enemy territory without the need for extensive AA overwatch. When your team always has an attack aircraft on standby and ready to deliver when its needed most, every major push that the enemy makes, can be countered by your precision strikes on their key assets at key moments in the engagement. This hurts the enemy greatly and definitely makes the enemy feel less desire to push further on their attacks and creates a buffer for friendly forces and relieves the pressure off your ground infantry. Once the enemy pulls its pressure off, then its time to consider taking on an aggressor role and this is when your team may take territorial supremacy over the enemy as his disposition begins to turn into a defensive one instead of offensive.
Getting blow'd up.... an inevitable certainty but with player driven factors.
Now of course we cant expect to always stay alive in an attack helicopter, there is so many random factors that will affect your survival, some out of your control but many factors can be altered to greatly increase your odds of survival. In PR presently, attack aircraft are heavily reliant on the ground forces to do a good job, even with that happening there is just plain bad luck: lag, lucky AA positioning/launch, disconnects/server kicks, etc. However, good pilots can negate alot of potential factors by having a set of SOP's and sticking to them, and always err on the side of caution when flying. For me, I like to roleplay a bit when I fly: I try to actually envision myself flying this enormously complex multi million dollar piece of equipment - not saying this is a requirement but try it if you like, might be fun hehe.
If your ground forces aren't working with you or they are behaving stupidly or just poorly skilled, then ya currently you probably wont have much luck in the air, but thats also true on the ground: if your air power is sucking ***, then ground forces will most likely be having a bad day too depending on enemy disposition. This codependence on each other (ground and air forces) is a strong point in gameplay of PR and also a hinderance IMO. But I'd choose this tradeoff any day, to having a system where the attack aircraft are able to win a map even with no coordination with ground forces and poor teamwork overall on the team. If thats the case, then why even bother playing as infantry or armor units, just keep spawning back at the airfield and wait your turn for the next aircraft to spawn
50cal vs Attack Heli
For those saying to lower the damage that 50cal does to attack helicopter.... maybe some adjustments should be made and the values inspected certainly for each helicopter, but I dont think its a clear cut approach. RL speaking, a burst from a 50cal hitting most helicopters (especially blades) would probably certainly force the air crew to make an emergency escape manuver, or disable a vital system and cause the helicopter to crash. To have a sustained 50cal scoring impacts on the helicopter, and the helicopter to remain on target like we have in PR atm, would probably end badly for the helicopter, not the hidden 50cal threat. I think most players greatly overestimate the armor protection on these helicopters (especially transport) vs HMG rounds, some of which are specifically designed to down aircraft. However, like rudd mentions, when flying alot of times its really hard to tell your getting shot at or getting hit. Adding some more visual cue to taking damage would go a long way to help air crew become more aware, but I think this is true in all vehicles as well.
The main thing that I think needs improving somehow is the gunner seat, at this moment it is prety frustrating to use properly, you need to be very patient and "skilled" to use, ie know exactly how to compensate for all the shakiness, hitbox lag, etc.
Whether there is a workable solution in CA's latest version, well lets try it out and see on this test date, hopefully Ill be there too to see how things go.
One thing I would like to clearly stress again though.... currently there is only 2 x 4km maps in PR. IMO those are the only maps where large attack aircraft like attack heli make sense. And no, I dont think the Cobra should be on Muttrah City
So currently the attack heli is a prety small element in PR, where only 2 out of 24 maps have their support properly.
For v0.9, we will be getting a much needed influx of new, detailed 4km maps. This will help alot in deploying these assets more realistically, and hopefully we can improve their weapon systems as well.
