Project Reality Forums

TheLean wrote:You know what pisses me off? People saying they will quit the mod if they dont get their will. Its especially annoying if the issue is very minor as this one. Therefore I vote yes to this change just to get rid of another immature player. Not that you will stand by your word though.

No what pisses me off is when people are all gung ho for changes that literaly piss in the face of realism.

And yes I will stand by my word, because this change proposed is idiotic at best, and more severe realism killing features would surely follow shortly afterwards.

This threat is not ment to make players change their minds And I don't care what you vote for.
I'm sure you were going to vote the way you are anyways, otherwise you would not care about my
hatred towards this proposal.
This is merely my way of expressing the shear stupidity that this change would impliment.

It makes No sense.

Soldiers, especially Insurgents, use the weapons and gear of their enemies.

Edit: User was warned for "attitude problem". People are free to express your point of view on these forums, but the manner in which they express them is not. We understand that a lot of passion exist on the direction PR should take in everyone's views, but the best way to be disregarded is to express oneself in such a way.

badmojo420 wrote:I don't doubt that the text from an AT4 has been translated into Arabic and distributed to insurgents. Or the insurgent would have easy access to an English speaking insurgent.

Insurgents are not a bunch of kids running around with guns. They are an established military force. They've decided to fight this war using insurgency tactics, but that does not mean they are lacking intelligence, spies, training, interpreters, etc.

Insurgent's don't have fax machines, how do you suppose that an Arabic (or, more likely the local dialect whatever it may be) translation has been distributed?

Sure, they might have access to English speaking Insurgents, or even more likely an English speaking civilian; does that mean they will always have that translator nearby? No, it's not like the translator would be their pet and follow them everywhere, not to mention that they can reload those kits off of their own weapons caches (which wouldn't make too much sense, right?).

In my opinion, yes. Picking up and using enemy weapons not only has the effect of gaining superior optics or technology, but it also has the effect of hurting the morale of the enemy. Most players can tell the sound of a weapon. So, as a US soldier, if you see your squad mate get mowed down by a US SAW, your going to fear that SAW. Not because it's a weapon in the hands of an enemy, but because you know how well that weapon system works against infantry, and you respect its power.

Its fact that insurgents are outgunned. That's why they rely on insurgency tactics. But, even those odds out, by insurgents picking up superior weapons, and the game just got a bit more interesting. They still rely on their own weapons, since you can't get an enemy kit without someone using an insurgent weapon. (well in most cases anyway)

Why can't a PKM be just as fearful as a SAW?

Yes, insurgents ARE outgunned; they are not outnumbered (represented by both readily available spawn points, and unlimited tickets). I think this advantage enough is pretty drastic. The ability to have a ton of insurgents running about with M4s and M249s seems like more of a bonus than a necessity.

The medic is in a totally different class. And with the kit becoming limited but still spawnable, i believe the medic kits should act like the old civ kits, and disappear when the medic is wounded. This would avoid the situations where an average insurgent becomes a fully training medic instantly. And also situations where the medic goes down, but a fellow squad member just picks up his kit and revives him. If your dumb enough to put a medic in a vulnerable position and get him killed, there should not be an easy way out.

Which would mean that the medic's kit would be gone, and if he can not be revived at all, I'm sure it'd be less desirable for someone to be the squad medic.

Or you're just agreeing with my suggestion, at least, in regards to the medic kit; that's fair to say, right?

TristanYockell wrote:No what pisses me off is when people are all gung ho for changes that are not "realistic".

And yes I will stand by my word, because this change proposed is idiotic at best, and more severe stupidity would surely follow shortly afterwards.

This threat is not ment to make players change their minds, this is my way of expressing how RETARDED this proposition is.

With that kind of attitude, I'd be more than happy to show you the door. Please, keep your manners in check while posting.

Celestial1 wrote:Insurgent's don't have fax machines, how do you suppose that an Arabic (or, more likely the local dialect whatever it may be) translation has been distributed?

by good old paper and pen, like here at 1.03-1.06, the quickest i could find, but almost everytime when hide-out found, schemes and instructions in hand-written "books" shown in news along with weapons

Sure, they might have access to English speaking Insurgents, or even more likely an English speaking civilian; does that mean they will always have that translator nearby? No, it's not like the translator would be their pet and follow them everywhere, not to mention that they can reload those kits off of their own weapons caches (which wouldn't make too much sense, right?).

why you need to have translator all the time? explain how to use it at training camp once, show basic operations even on already used one(pretty much sure some of them are lying around) and send him into the fight

point about caches makes sense

Celestial1 wrote:Insurgent's don't have fax machines, how do you suppose that an Arabic (or, more likely the local dialect whatever it may be) translation has been distributed?

Internet? Written word? Telephone calls? Letters? Handbooks? Training camps? And how do you know the insurgents don't have fax machines? Don't be so ignorant, they are people too. And people are resourceful.

Celestial1 wrote:Sure, they might have access to English speaking Insurgents, or even more likely an English speaking civilian; does that mean they will always have that translator nearby? No, it's not like the translator would be their pet and follow them everywhere, not to mention that they can reload those kits off of their own weapons caches (which wouldn't make too much sense, right?).

Yes your correct. They would not bring the english speaker along during a firefight. But neither would they wait until then to learn how to use the enemies weapons. I could just as easily turn the argument around and say it's extremely unrealistic that any soldier in the USMC can request a sniper/aa/hat kit off a crate and instantly know how to use it. Did they recieve the training as they requested the kit? WTF! it's unreal! But no, we all understand that these players we're controlling are trained soldiers of their respective factions. Now, if you want to argue that insurgents are not trained in the use of some foreign weapons, prior to the fighting, then i disagree.

Celestial1 wrote:Why can't a PKM be just as fearful as a SAW?

I don't know, the SAW is just better. Let me ask you this, when you walk by a dead insurgent with a PKM kit, do you swap your SAW for the PKM?

My whole point was, that given some better weapons, the insurgents are more feared. It's not so much of a turkey shoot for the coalition when they are equally gunned.

Celestial1 wrote:Yes, insurgents ARE outgunned; they are not outnumbered (represented by both readily available spawn points, and unlimited tickets). I think this advantage enough is pretty drastic. The ability to have a ton of insurgents running about with M4s and M249s seems like more of a bonus than a necessity.

Of course it's a bonus. It's a bonus to those players who can survive as insurgents, while still killing the infidels.

Celestial1 wrote:Which would mean that the medic's kit would be gone, and if he can not be revived at all, I'm sure it'd be less desirable for someone to be the squad medic.

Or you're just agreeing with my suggestion, at least, in regards to the medic kit; that's fair to say, right?

I'm confused. You say it would make the medic less desirable. But would you whole suggestion not do the same?

Anyway, yes the medic could not be revived. Unless squads decided to work together. Then, all it would take is a quick stab of the epipen and the medic could heal himself. Also with the medic kit now limited, if a squad mate takes the medic kit(to attempt to revive you) you cannot re-spawn as medic, and if he did revive you, your not the medic anymore.

I for one, do not like to pick up a fallen medics kit. If i wanted to be the medic, i would have spawned as a medic. I'll do it, from time to time, but only if the SL or medic request it.

I just thought of a possible bug in the current system. If a medic goes down, and you take his kit and wait the 15sec for your old kit to disappear, will the downed medic also have a medic kit when you revive him? If so, that's another reason to make the medics kit disappear.

DankE_SPB wrote:by good old paper and pen, like here at 1.03-1.06, the quickest i could find, but almost everytime when hide-out found, schemes and instructions in hand-written "books" shown in news along with weapons

Yes, of course. And not to knock you for your contribution to the thread, but is that not a diagram of a Russian weapon, that they've likely had their hands on for quite some time now?

I'd love to see the same shown about something like an AT-4, in all honesty, because it would surprise me. If someone can show that to me, please do post it and I will shut my big mouth right up about it. Promise.

Your statement about being able to demonstrate how to use one based on an empty launcher does intrigue me though, good point. Are the launchers usually abandoned after firing, or do they make an attempt to keep them so as to recycle the tube or whatnot?

badmojo420 wrote:Internet? Written word? Telephone calls? Letters? Handbooks? Training camps? And how do you know the insurgents don't have fax machines? Don't be so ignorant, they are people too. And people are resourceful.

I'm not being ignorant. I'm pointing out a fact-I highly doubt that more advanced AT weapons have Arabic/etc language translations, and even if they do, how fast do you think that news spreads around? Chances are, they're not using some more advanced technologies to spread the word (although yes, it is entirely possible), and it is more likely it is being passed around by word of mouth. There's an abundance of RPGs being used because (1) They have a ton of them (2) They're easier to use than knowing how to hit a button on your alarm waking up before the sun (3) They've had them for quite some time, and have passed around the knowledge of their use very easily.

I could just as easily turn the argument around and say it's extremely unrealistic that any soldier in the USMC can request a sniper/aa/hat kit off a crate and instantly know how to use it. Did they recieve the training as they requested the kit?

Requesting a kit is a metaphor for having taken the training. Picking the kit up off the ground is a metaphor for stealing their stuff and their training too.

I don't know, the SAW is just better. Let me ask you this, when you walk by a dead insurgent with a PKM kit, do you swap your SAW for the PKM?

Honestly, I'd love to answer that, but I have not once touched an AR in game. I prefer healing or protecting the squad's flanks with rifleman.

My whole point was, that given some better weapons, the insurgents are more feared. It's not so much of a turkey shoot for the coalition when they are equally gunned.

I'm sorry you see it as a turkey shoot for the coalition. I've yet to see an insurgent team do horrible enough to make that analogy fit. Maybe you should find some new players to play against. In all seriousness.

Look, really, I do love playing insurgent, I like picking up BluFor kits, but I don't think it's really necessary; in fact, I think it's detrimental to the insurgency/guerilla style gameplay, instead putting it back to a head on fight with the opposition. Even worse, that head on fight spells defeat when only a man or two in your squad has an enemy rifle, and the enemy has 5. It seems like a wasted effort, whenever I've seen it done, or even been on the receiving end.

I'm confused. You say it would make the medic less desirable. But would you whole suggestion not do the same?

You're missing part of my suggestion.

All players now have a revive 'weapon'. It's the same thing as an epipen is now, but it's just him using his hands to 'drag' the player to safety. (And by drag, I mean revive and walk with. Just for clarity.)

This means that any player can revive another player, but only the medics can heal them after that. If a teammate goes down, you can use this to get him up and then applying a field dressing to his wound (Basic First Aid Training) and he can be healed afterwards by a First Aid Kit (having had advanced medical training).

If the medic goes down, you can 'drag' him to safety, and he can heal himself.

I just thought of a possible bug in the current system. If a medic goes down, and you take his kit and wait the 15sec for your old kit to disappear, will the downed medic also have a medic kit when you revive him? If so, that's another reason to make the medics kit disappear.

(1) It's 30 seconds.
(2) This is probably not the right place to be asking that, as it can be abused.

Well, maybe you should make it so the devation ramps up when an OPFOR force picks up a BLUFOR kit? I mean, an Insurgent using a M4 would fail compared to a Marine using one. Another point is that how quickly would you want to ditch your own gun? In the long run, an Insurgent would probably keep his AK so he can use ammo if he survives the battle he is currently in. This counts twice as much with Americans picking up say, a MEC gun. But really, this should be taken out.

(P.S, that ghost kit thing sounds very good if it can be implemented, I didn't see until now. If DEVs don't accept this idea maybe it should be put in place anyway after the normal kit time to solve the ammo issue)

galeknight1 wrote:Well, maybe you should make it so the devation ramps up when an OPFOR force picks up a BLUFOR kit?

From what I know, it is not possible to determine between what team is holding the kit. Deviation properties are 'contained' within the kit itself.

at4's arent exactly hard to shoot. slide out optics and pull trigger.

Celestial1 wrote:I'd love to see the same shown about something like an AT-4, in all honesty, because it would surprise me. If someone can show that to me, please do post it and I will shut my big mouth right up about it. Promise.

LOL

So we have to show you arabic documents about the AT4 to prove our point?

Celestial1 wrote:I'm not being ignorant. I'm pointing out a fact-I highly doubt that more advanced AT weapons have Arabic/etc language translations, and even if they do, how fast do you think that news spreads around? Chances are, they're not using some more advanced technologies to spread the word (although yes, it is entirely possible), and it is more likely it is being passed around by word of mouth. There's an abundance of RPGs being used because (1) They have a ton of them (2) They're easier to use than knowing how to hit a button on your alarm waking up before the sun (3) They've had them for quite some time, and have passed around the knowledge of their use very easily.

I consider it ignorant to assume just because insurgents are living in Iraq and are at war with the US, that they have no means to distribute information.

I understand you highly doubt they get trained on western weapons.

Celestial1 wrote:Requesting a kit is a metaphor for having taken the training. Picking the kit up off the ground is a metaphor for stealing their stuff and their training too.

Well then picking up the enemy kit is a metaphor for having taken the training in the Iraqi Institute Of Warfare Technology.

My point is you can't accept one metaphor and just reject another similar one.

Celestial1 wrote:Honestly, I'd love to answer that, but I have not once touched an AR in game. I prefer healing or protecting the squad's flanks with rifleman.

Well, I'm sure many people can tell you that they would rather take the SAW than a PKM.

Celestial1 wrote:You're missing part of my suggestion.

All players now have a revive 'weapon'. It's the same thing as an epipen is now, but it's just him using his hands to 'drag' the player to safety. (And by drag, I mean revive and walk with. Just for clarity.)

This means that any player can revive another player, but only the medics can heal them after that. If a teammate goes down, you can use this to get him up and then applying a field dressing to his wound (Basic First Aid Training) and he can be healed afterwards by a First Aid Kit (having had advanced medical training).

If the medic goes down, you can 'drag' him to safety, and he can heal himself.

Ahh, yes you're correct. I forgot you wanted to add that to every kit.

Celestial1 wrote:(1) It's 30 seconds.
(2) This is probably not the right place to be asking that, as it can be abused.

Well, since it pertained to the topic we were discussing, I felt it was the right place to ask. And I think most players of PR know those types of exploits, even if we don't normally use them.

Celestial1 wrote:I'm sorry you see it as a turkey shoot for the coalition. I've yet to see an insurgent team do horrible enough to make that analogy fit. Maybe you should find some new players to play against. In all seriousness.

Look, really, I do love playing insurgent, I like picking up BluFor kits, but I don't think it's really necessary; in fact, I think it's detrimental to the insurgency/guerilla style gameplay, instead putting it back to a head on fight with the opposition. Even worse, that head on fight spells defeat when only a man or two in your squad has an enemy rifle, and the enemy has 5. It seems like a wasted effort, whenever I've seen it done, or even been on the receiving end.

Celestial, your responses to some of my comments make me not want to respond. I don't know if it's intentional, or what, but you seem to focus on one sentence and build your replies around that.

I made the comment...

My whole point was, that given some better weapons, the insurgents are more feared. It's not so much of a turkey shoot for the coalition when they are equally gunned.

You read it as "Insurgency is just a big turkey shoot for the coalition, take away our ability to pickup kits and it wouldn't be fair!"

What i have to reiterate for a third time, is that given the weapons insurgents have, pitted off against each other, 1 on 1, it will appear to be a turkey shoot for the coalition, because they will have no fear of being hit by the crappy weapons of the insurgents. There is no fear for the most part.

Do you disagree that US weapons are feared more than insurgent weapons? Do i have to keep explaining that idea to you?

@badmojo420

I fully disagree with you the insurgence weapons are far more feared then the Coalition kits.

Scopes are useless in close combat they mind as well take out there knifes there going to get ran over by the ak.

when a insurgent gets a us kit he is the first to die in a fight and then his team mates get pricked off as they try to get the kit.

If your a insurgent and fighting long range you just fail.

I always used the red dot/iron sites when i was fighting the insurgents 1) I could still kill them at long ranges and 2) if they got my kit they would start trying b/c it was not a optic lol.

Insurgents that pick up coalition kits are funny they think they are "Snipers" and only find them selfs on the end of a AT4 in there window or team killed xD.

In the end if your using team work as a insurgent you will do better off with a AK defending your cache.

This is why Insurgents still win over 85% of there matches.

i am not a fan of picking up downed kits, sometimes it works but most of the time i dont worry about it. even as an insurgent.
i'd rather see people sticking with kits, and either it allows your team to select more of your own kits or if you pick up an enemy kit, you dont get it but it gives you bonus tickets.

just a thought.

Having superior weapons and winning matches are two very different things.

Insurgents win games because they fight on their terms. Not because their weapons are better.

R.J.Travis wrote:@badmojo420

I fully disagree with you the insurgence weapons are far more feared then the Coalition kits.

Scopes are useless in close combat they mind as well take out there knifes there going to get ran over by the ak.

when a insurgent gets a us kit he is the first to die in a fight and then his team mates get pricked off as they try to get the kit.

If your a insurgent and fighting long range you just fail.

I always used the red dot/iron sites when i was fighting the insurgents 1) I could still kill them at long ranges and 2) if they got my kit they would start trying b/c it was not a optic lol.

Insurgents that pick up coalition kits are funny they think they are "Snipers" and only find them selfs on the end of a AT4 in there window or team killed xD.

In the end if your using team work as a insurgent you will do better off with a AK defending your cache.

This is why Insurgents still win over 85% of there matches.

players are hardcoded, lets face it noobs may do that but most experienced players who do end up picking up blufor kits usually use them to a proper advantage, ie. if one picked up a scoped rifleman kit, he'd provide over watch for the squad while the others lie in ambush, the advantage being no one else ahs to stick their head out to see, the guy with the scope can just wait till they get into position and tell their sqd mates to pop out. he can also serve as a distraction to the enemy

The great problem in INS games is a weird tendency in which insurgents actually hunt BLUFOR who simply wait and kill them from far away with their scopes.
Or sometimes, it is like trench warfare so insurgents are bloody awful in that kind of warfare and then some guys are wondering why INS suck lol.
Indeed, picking AR and Medic is very useful but I think that they can manage by simply using ambushes and skirmish tactics.

To go back to the original topic, pick up kits is still "realistic" to me but when I am talking about kit, I mean weapons only where with BF2, it means the appearance in the first place (can't do much about it, I am afraid).

It has saved me a couple times in those kind of desperate situations (lack of ammo, field dressings,...).

Bad idea I think.... Why don't take kit on the ground??? In reality, if I'm an insurgent I'll take the US guns for sure!! And if my AT friend falls, I'll take his kit too, to destroy an APC.

Celestial1 wrote:Yes, of course. And not to knock you for your contribution to the thread, but is that not a diagram of a Russian weapon, that they've likely had their hands on for quite some time now?

I'd love to see the same shown about something like an AT-4, in all honesty, because it would surprise me. If someone can show that to me, please do post it and I will shut my big mouth right up about it. Promise.

Your statement about being able to demonstrate how to use one based on an empty launcher does intrigue me though, good point. Are the launchers usually abandoned after firing, or do they make an attempt to keep them so as to recycle the tube or whatnot?



I'm not being ignorant. I'm pointing out a fact-I highly doubt that more advanced AT weapons have Arabic/etc language translations, and even if they do, how fast do you think that news spreads around? Chances are, they're not using some more advanced technologies to spread the word (although yes, it is entirely possible), and it is more likely it is being passed around by word of mouth. There's an abundance of RPGs being used because (1) They have a ton of them (2) They're easier to use than knowing how to hit a button on your alarm waking up before the sun (3) They've had them for quite some time, and have passed around the knowledge of their use very easily.

Here have a free M136 AT4 manual available to anyone with the internet, complete with diagrams. You can find such manuals online pretty easily for most weapons in the US armory, you could probably work it out with the pictures alone and a translation would be easy.

With such material you could easily train insurgent troops with theory of operation and if you had an example on hand training would be as easy as pie.

I hope you live up to your promise.

@BreepZz

Really In reality if you where a insurgent you would pick up the USA kit?

what the hell will you do once the ammo runs out?

your just a poor insurgent that your master does not care if you live or die "he wants you to be a suicide bomber anyways" you think theres just going to be ample 5.56 around for you?

you really think the insurgents have ammo for a AT4 in such a bulk you could get your hands on them?

Oh and don't hold your breath on the HAT they will not give the very rare limited amo of a Heavy anti tank missile to a insurgent "they will most lily demand you hand over the launcher or just shoot you dead and take it"

Kim Jong ill wrote:Here have a free M136 AT4 manual available to anyone with the internet, complete with diagrams. You can find such manuals online pretty easily for most weapons in the US armory, you could probably work it out with the pictures alone and a translation would be easy.

With such material you could easily train insurgent troops with theory of operation and if you had an example on hand training would be as easy as pie.

I hope you live up to your promise.

\
The Taliban would have the resources to train there men to use the HAT/AT4 kits.

Remember the insurgents are just simple town people trying to defend what they deem there land and pushing out the invaders.

There not going to known wtf a AT4 is let alone a HAT remember the game is set in a Fix time around 2008-2012 so I don't think that the simple town folk are using there internet to learn how to use a AT4 that they most likely will never get one in real life.

Insurgents are not the guys in the training camps in game.

Remember a real USA solider has a hell of alot better weaponry but PR has stated every solider is a poor grunt with basic weapons and basic training.

they cattier to the insurgents "So people will play them"

They need to A give blue-four more tickets per cache / knifing enemy squad leaders

B drop the number of over all caches to 5

Or C give blue-four more tickets when they have a FoB up.

Right know the Insurgents can out last the blue four almost 72% of them time before they can get all 10!

This is so unrealistic Insurgents do not have Unlimited man power In every god dam battle this is a huge fault in the game mode and the "DEV" team needs to really get off your butts and find a better way to make insurgents fun then "Oh If i die so what it does not matter what so ever!!! insurgents should have 2-3x the tickets as blue four not unlimited that the lazy route.

That's better to get HAT with one round than RPG with 3..... Don't care about ammo of US kit, you come back to the cash and it's goal. Anyway, I find a riffleman, I take it in reality to shoot the US and after I see...

"This is so unrealistic Insurgents do not have Unlimited man power In every god dam battle this is a huge fault in the game mode and the "DEV" team needs to really get off your butts and find a better way to make insurgents fun then "Oh If i die so what it does not matter what so ever!!! insurgents should have 2-3x the tickets as blue four not unlimited that the lazy route."

TRUE!

Guys, the unlimited is also to show that you cant just kill everybody in the frikking city and say that "yeah nobodys using the weapons from the caches now, suckers" If the Bluefor is using teamwork and not letting their assets die every 5min they might just win more often..

R.J.Travis wrote:you really think the insurgents have ammo for a AT4 in such a bulk you could get your hands on them?

AT4 is a disposable fire once weapon. There is no ammo to reload.

R.J.Travis wrote:The Taliban would have the resources to train there men to use the HAT/AT4 kits.

Remember the insurgents are just simple town people trying to defend what they deem there land and pushing out the invaders.

There not going to known wtf a AT4 is let alone a HAT remember the game is set in a Fix time around 2008-2012 so I don't think that the simple town folk are using there internet to learn how to use a AT4 that they most likely will never get one in real life.

Insurgents are not the guys in the training camps in game.

Google "Iraqi Insurgent training" or goto the wikipedia page about the Iraqi Insurgency and search for "training" You will find lots of information regarding their training.

Iraqi insurgents aren't civies with guns. They're militias fighting from within the civilian population. Poorly equipped and forced to operate covertly, but they're still a military force. Trained and combat ready.